Monks, time to speak up and speak out!

[Marten]

Before some changes get written in stone, make your voices heard.

Hello! This is an early look at the Epic Destiny Pass currently slated for Update 43. (The second Sharn raid is coming before this, so there's still a bit of time before this reaches Lamannia). A few notes about this pass, before we get to details:

We had a few primary goals in the Epic Destiny pass, compounded by a very slim time-frame of 3 weeks for principal changes.

• First and foremost, try to put each Destiny in a place where it's worth using for at least some builds.
• Fix bugs and remove things that hinder fun or usability
  
  • You'll notice that every Epic Moment that required you to do weird things to charge it up no longer requires that.
  
  
• Improve the ability for people to play in Destinies that match their Archetype (ranged characters in Shiradi, etc) without significantly hindering the current ability for people to play in Destinies that don't (casters in Shiradi, etc)

Like we said above, the timeframe was slim. We didn't hit everything we would have liked to, and there are still abilities within individual Destinies that still probably aren't worth taking. We're listening for feedback here, but our ability to act on it is similarly time-restricted; we're unlikely to further revamp whole trees or add completely new skills at this time, but we may be able to make number tweaks and fix outstanding bugs.

That said, this is the thread for Martial Sphere Destinies, so let's dive in. Be sure to check out the other Sphere threads when you're done, as well as the topic on new Epic Past Lives coming with these changes.

Grandmaster of Flowers
This tree needed a lot of love. It was only OK for Monks, and really not-great for everyone else. There's now a fair bit of twist fodder in here, and fewer things require strict centering. Top-tier actives became massively more powerful with the changes, so they were scaled back somewhat to reflect being able to use them much more often.

• Inner Focus and Wholeness of Spirit now allow for movement during use
• Wholeness of Spirit has its cooldown reduced to 2 minutes
• Ki actives (the left column) now scale with the higher of Melee or Ranged Power
• Ki actives get Stunning bonuses added to their DC calculations
• Ki actives can now be used under Antimagic, as they are not spells
• Ki actives are no longer linked in a line
• Lily Petal and Orchid Blossom now care about levels 26-30 in terms of scaling with character level (was previously capping at 25)
• Lily Petal now grants 5 Ki instead of costing Ki
• A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds.
  
  • A Scattering of Petals also reduces enemy Fortification by 200% for 12 seconds, and affected creatures lose immunity to Sneak Attack for that duration.
  • A Scattering of Petals now has a detect the same size as Drifting Lotus (i.e. twice as large).
  • A Scattering of Petals now has a 90 second cooldown.
  
  
• A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.
• Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement)
• Hail of Blows now adds +3 melee damage in addition to its doublestrike
• Walking with Waves no longer requires Ocean stance for its Dodge bonus
• Standing with Stone no longer requires Mountain Stance for its PRR.
• Dancing with Flame no longer requires Sun Stance for its (w) bonus.
• Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
  
  • Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently.
  
  
• NEW: T2: The Flower's Thorn: +3[w] attack. 6 second cooldown. Does not require Centering. Has cool petal FX. (1 Rank, 1AP)
• NEW: T5: Devastating Critical (+1 Critical Multiplier on a 19-20) (1 Rank, 1AP)

My two-cents:

I try my best to live by the above three rules of speaking to others. Heck, just this week I have been making an exerted effort to instill this to both my preteen and teen aged children. The hardest part in explaining this to them is where the line is drawn between speaking out and speaking up. Sometime you have to make a stand for yourself and others when a wrong is taking place and the "Is this good" rule has to be tweaked, and sometimes, sadly, even ignored.

I have over the years tried to only post when I felt I had something positive to add, and I think my creation date and number of posts speak for themselves.

I have been playing the monk class, especially a light monk, since way before they were cool and rolling a 20 on a Void Strike was the only thing cool to look forward to in a fight. People wouldn't group a monk unless the lfm had been up for over 5 minutes an no other class was asking to join. Monks were only allowed in raids for their earth-positive-earth (1 minute stun immunity) and water-positive-water (1 minute mana usage buff). Dark monks? Played only for flavor or if you hated yourself that much.

I really think that the Devs forget what the monk class and old school players have gone through just to be reasonably functional. How much effort and creativity has been put into making this borked¹ class not just fun, but useful. Every time monks start to pull even in a play style, the "squeaky-wheel" side of the player base on the forums that thinks that monks should only be for splashing and not a fully functional and meaningful pure class start their chattering.

Monk stunning becomes meaningful, nerfed.
Monk Quivering Palm becomes meaningful, nerfed into a "use until it works" skill because that is what monks do, "spray and pray" their punches.²
Monks almost being on par as a tank, nerfed.
Monk DPS approaches something useful, nerfed.³

And Now?!
Monk ED "tree needed a lot of love. It was only OK for Monks, and really not-great for everyone else." Translation: Anything a monk can have to boost DPS, everyone can now have and oh by the way, this gives us an excuse to nerf them too.
Monk EIN, maybe the only reason to take the tree, nerfed. Reason? "...for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently." I would love to see the proof that it caused a significant tax on the game, really, show me the proof. If anything it was used at points where the game would start lagging before use due to mob population and upon use would relieve said lag issue. So, calling BS on this.

This in no way "helps" monks and is yet more proof that if the player base of monks does not stand up for itself and be louder than the squeaky-wheel, anti-monk, chattering class that we will get nerfed back into uselessness by the Devs.

@Steelstar, you can do better! May be start out by asking yourself why even many monks don't use the ED designed for them. Figure out how to make the ED useful to others while also helping the monk class. Put EIN on a timer, but drop the other purposed changes to this iconic monk skill, period.

I was just about to drop another large amount of money on the game. That will now be postponed as your changes will now affect if that happens.

I have in the past tried to speak with sound reasoning and measured tone. Let me be clear, this time I will be speaking with my wallet and feet. Continue to nerf monks at the risk of losing one more long time customer.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++

¹ bork /bôrk/ - verb - past tense: borked; past participle: borked - [to] obstruct (someone...) through systematic defamation or vilification.

² If it is not clear that this is said in festering amounts of irony, this is to make it clear it was.

³ Changes made, if I am to believe my sources, because one monk was over performing. One! And the facts that this monk was using bugs to stack items and have an extra feat was completely ignored. Now, even after that farce you purpose to take even more [W] DPS from monks and as an extra slap in the face give the same amount to any DPS class that wants it?!

Make your voices heard. Don't let this one pass you, especially if you have had enough of the monk "nerf" love.

[NemesisAlien]

Monk suppose to be the BEST class in D&D, not the WORST class.

Monks weak at level 1 fine, they are noobs anyway, but by level 30 they suppose to be able to laugh at sorc nukers, make faces at tanks, dance in traps. Not die when someone comes along and become a liability. The point of being a grandmaster is they are just about ascended, you need to look at the majority, not the minority super players.

Or just give me this.

[Robbenklopper]

Grandmaster of Flowers
This tree needs hell of a love. It was merely "okayish" for Monks, and really obsolete for everyone else.

Inner Focus and Wholeness of Spirit now allow for movement during use
- I didn´t recognized there was a problem with em.

Wholeness of Spirit has its cooldown reduced to 2 minutes
- CD down from 5 to 2 is really good

Ki actives (the left column) now scale with the higher of Melee or Ranged Power
- I haven´t done the math yet, but that sounds still useless

Ki actives get Stunning bonuses added to their DC calculations
- Needs to better claryfied - what stunning boni, all or based on an a specific stat, falconry ... ?

Ki actives can now be used under Antimagic, as they are not spells .
- Ok

Ki actives are no longer linked in a line
- good and welcome suggestion

Lily Petal and Orchid Blossom now care about levels 26-30 in terms of scaling with character level (was previously capping at 25)
- Fascinating

Lily Petal now grants 5 Ki instead of costing Ki
- Receiving is mainly better than giving

A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds.
- What about monks´ MRR Cap? Will be ignored?

A Scattering of Petals also reduces enemy Fortification by 200% for 12 seconds, and affected creatures lose immunity to Sneak Attack for that duration.
-Fascinating

A Scattering of Petals now has a detect the same size as Drifting Lotus (i.e. twice as large).
- Hmm ...

A Scattering of Petals now has a 90 second cooldown.
- Hmm ...

A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.
- Who messed up with the numbers? This is an offense nerf to monk and powercreep for anyone else. I consider it mean for my monk and wacky for my barb&fighter.

Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement)
- Too less for too many AP

Hail of Blows now adds +3 melee damage in addition to its doublestrike
-Still makes me yawn

Walking with Waves no longer requires Ocean stance for its Dodge bonus
- ok ...

Standing with Stone no longer requires Mountain Stance for its PRR
- Very good and welcome

Dancing with Flame no longer requires Sun Stance for its (w) bonus.
- Fair, coz DoF is announced to drop by 0,5 (w)

Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
- The drop from 5 to 3 is welcome

Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently.
- Only 4 enemies??? This should be the panic button when a pack of mobs encircles you, and the pack of mobs comes average in 6-8. And the other question is: What does the DC stacks with? Like with the "stunning bonus" from the "ki actives"?

NEW: T2: The Flower's Thorn: +3[w] attack. 6 second cooldown. Does not require Centering. Has cool petal FX. (1 Rank, 1AP) - +3w for just 1 AP?
-That´s sick strong!

NEW: T5: Devastating Critical (+1 Critical Multiplier on a 19-20) (1 Rank, 1AP)
- Finally!!!!

Final words: The revamped GMoF tree should offer:
Real, really useful "ki actives" that can compete on Reaper damagewise and and options to go DC wise
The comeback of EiN, a top tier 6 feat that shall not be crappy or useless
A way to increase the MRR cap, in general or temporally
Enhanced Crowdcontrol
Still DPS as alternative to not run in LDreadnought. But not sure about. I would more like to see the GMoF tree more as the ultimate tree to raise the options and DCs for CC and INSTAKILLING, e.g. for QP, instead of "just" DPS. (kinda what shadowdancer offers for assassins)
Something really monk-exclusive or monk-optimized, maybe even stance / grade of mastery-rank depending.
Solutions and improvments that are useful for each of the 3 monk enhancement-trees

I can really see some of my expectations being targeted, some aspects are "vague to unknown" or not yet mentioned by the team. Certainly a first step into the right direction, but their alpha-blueprint needs to be made more clear and presented for a beta to talk again.

P.S. Thanks Marten to grab on the talk, i would have not recognized if you didn´t have started this thread about.

P.S.S. I also agree with Marten that, however nice the improvments will be, the gonna improve any class by not having a neccessetiy to be monk or a master of forms. One can say "but the other EDs don´t do that too", what is not plain true, there are requierments or exclusions if you don´t have this or that. However, i miss the speciality to be monk in the GMoF revamp-thing. Dance of flowers will be the new thing "to have" for everyone without being centered. Not that I do begrudge them, but there will be powercreep in general, again.

[DaviMOC]

Not meaning to annoy but if I do so I'm sorry not intended to. But how monk is the worst class in ddo being right now the most reliable melee DPS in high diffiiculty content that can mix without splashing Tank, high DPS, instakills , high saves and evasion in one class/build with little sacrifice? It runs faster than a barbarian, hits faster and stronger than a Tempest ranger tanks at same level as most tanks without sacrificing damage output. Is that bad to share the juice with others to make some stuff stance free? Still debatable good for other playstyles but now is debatable , once when I leveled that ED, on a melee class it was worst to do it on GMoF than any arcane sphere ED.

From Robbenklopper analyses i could say is more about buffs for the class (and any other) than specific monks nerf. I can also agree that the ED itself may pale in sight of LD for even monks but i feel thats an issue with LD itself as they tried to make FoTW relevant to 2HF but still not enough to drop LD.

To be honest the white elephant in the room no one is talking about is how LD is broken and how game was balanced over it for many years because most non-caster builds had it as the only ED "working" and to nerf it now may break things more than balancing out.

[SmashBang]

Monks are still going to be the best DPS class, so NOT a nerf

[Nickodeamous]

I am ok with this to a certain extent. I really like devastating critical. I am ok with lowering the timer for EiN, but common with 4 Mobs. that is just silly. Make it 6 or 8 and keep the charging! that is a great feature that makes you think!

I am currently on the Racial TR train, so I wont see EDs for a year probably...by then, who knows what they will be like.

I have more to say, but I'll see how this pans out...
Nico

[Paisheng]

The jokes are coming in fast now on the monk EIN change: Instead of "Everything Is Nothing:" "4 Is Nothing." Or should that be: "4 Is Everything?" Or how about: "Everything Is Less Than Nothing"

The joke may truly be on monks. Has there ever been a monk nerf that the Devs have not loved? The history of the last 2 years speaks for itself: Henshin MP nerfed, Shintao MP nerfed, Duality nerfed. And perhaps
the harshest prior reduction: Monk core W's nerfed, Now with new ED changes: A Dance of Flowers Nerfed. All the other proposed GMOF changes have some pluses and minuses for monk. But the biggest change to the GMOF is EIN and it is a huge nerf.

What is so tellingly sad about EIN is that this is the tier 6 epic moment. And if feels like at best a heroic moment. Many caster spells from level 17 on are more powerful (killing more mobs) than EIN and have shorter cool downs. Frog --the same. Keep in mind 4 is the new max ability -- some will still save and many are still immune. So we run up and Pzza! One or two regular mobs vaporize! After 3 min we can do it again! Hurrah! I mean Yawn.

I would rather have EIN not changed at all. I don't even mind the build up -- that took skill, time and effort. And knowing that you may only use it once in a quest made you strategize. You trigger at the wrong time, or you are not ready at the right time and it is wasted. At the right time: Pzza! An epic moment!

Monks keep speaking up if you want any chance to save your GMOF uniqueness and epic glory.

[Arkat]

I'm just going to give up on the Monk class altogether.

The Ninja Spy was never good. The MP nerf to Henshin Mystic made me convert my Q-Staff user to a Thief-Acrobat. And the changes to GMoF (EiN, I'm looking mostly at you) will be the straw that breaks my back.

Time for my handwrap monk, Arkat, to retire.

I'll concentrate on some other classes/builds now.

Hmmm...looks like I might have to change my DDO Forum avatar.

[Memnir]

I'm just going to give up on the Monk class altogether.

The Ninja Spy was never good. The MP nerf to Henshin Mystic made me convert my Q-Staff user to a Thief-Acrobat. And the changes to GMoF (EiN, I'm looking mostly at you) will be the straw that breaks my back.

Time for my handwrap monk, Arkat, to retire.

I'll concentrate on some other classes/builds now.

Hmmm...looks like I might have to change my DDO Forum avatar.

This is actually and legitimately one of the most sad things I've read on these forums.

[Ordinary]

My main is a monk who is just about getting back to epics after doing all the Tiefling lives. He was always designed to run in the GMoF destiny, with EIN as one of his signature abilities.

All the other changes to the GMoF tree I can live with, but the max mobs of 4 for EIN is one I can't swallow.
Personally, I would like it left untouched as I think its good as is. I can understand server performance issues being a drive for changes but to say it severely stresses the servers when used....(assumptions made in my analysis)

What goes on in the background?
Find all mobs in range
Line of sight to each mob
Check immunity/save/effect to mobs as required

Each of these steps should be using an optimized section of code that is being used by most effects in game one way or another already. To say EIN is stressing the servers for a once/5 min effect seems....a tad off IMHO.

[kelavas]

Monks are not the only ones being smashed, a lot of builds that revolve around melee classes are being subjected to a huge nerf in Legendary Dreadnaught. I am afraid the time of endgame is slowly dying to melee classes as if they were trying to boost us, smack my head.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Monks are still going to be the best DPS class, so NOT a nerf

Dude. Currently they’re trying to stay in the top 5 by their fingernails.

Top DPS right now? Lol

[awar1234]

Any nerf is a good nerf.

Way to much power creep in the game.

If you take any epic destiny tree you should get one negative level per core up to 6 negative levels... your max level is now 24.

[nokowi]

Before some changes get written in stone, make your voices heard.



My two-cents:



Make your voices heard. Don't let this one pass you, especially if you have had enough of the monk "nerf" love.

Someone at SSG thinks ruining individual builds in the name of sharing everything is good design. The philosophy is 1,000,000 terrible options with one peak provides more diversity than 10,000 options with 12 peaks. The goal seems to be to make every character the same so that they have the same reward generation per time, without thought to quality of play.

Wish you the best, and much better than I fared.

[Robbenklopper]

The overwork of Gmof should include:
Improvements in general for all non-monk builds
Improvements specifically for the monk class, for what Gmof is the target .
Improvements for the tiers and cores

Please.

[Cernunan]

So I have played monks nearly exclusively since they were introduced. Almost every build of every one of my many many many lives over my 3 mains have revolved around some form of monk splash, except lives with alignment restrictions.

I have absolutely no problem with the GMoF changes. The destiny has been hellaciously boring, I rarely use it anymore as there are much more fun destinies. Sure , you get a kick from clearing a room, but it has always lead to stale gameplay. Except for the EM, the rest of the tree is banal, boring, and have I mentioned boring. There was no reason for a non monk to every slog through the tree, as it was monk exclusive, that makes zero sense that a single class should get a tree only they could use.

I like the direction it is going now, it now has twist choices for other builds, it opens up more build choices. I do agrees maybe look at expanding the EM to maybe 6 targets. Otherwise the rest of the changes seem fun.

[Ralmeth]

I never play a Monk, and hadn't used EiN before, but I have to say that the change to Everything is Nothing looks like a huge nerf. It seems like in the current live version you could use your Monk's superior speed to group up a whole bunch of mobs and then nuke them with EiN. In the new version, you can only kill 4 mobs every 3 minutes? That's really lame in comparison. So I agree with Marten on this.

If EiN is causing server performance issues, then spend the time to design a replacement properly instead of rushing this change out, and leave EiN as is for now.

[ironmaiden-br]

Hi devs .. i'm pretty sure you know better then anyone what is best for the game but, for once, take in consideration what your more then 10 years costumers are asking!

I'm a MOnk GMOF enthusiast ... EIN is the signature of GMof, if you really need to change that , just reduce a liltle the AOE add mor 1 min to coll down but dont destroy it like you are proposing.

Instead of making monk less good every time try make the others better.....

Constructive begging!

YOu know we will not abandon the game , but i don't wanna have to abandon my monk to another class on my main.

[Whisper1]

I already dread reading the forums every day, it honestly can't really get worse than where we are right now :P

Can you please look at 1-kill abilites like finger of death.

People just them in high reaper skulls, i never see anyone else using damage spells except things like magic missile on bosses.


I have 1000 spellpower, 85% fire crit, 100 to save (evade) and still damage is very low, even when mobs do not save. I look like 1-2k dmg per best spell. While usual mob have 10-12k hp and other caster just 1-hit it with FoD or other 1-kill abilities.

And on very high reaper (like 10) very often i dont see damage at all, despite spells hitting and mobs not immune!

[blerkington]

Not in favour of the EIN change even though I have expressed reservations about monk balance before.

Not buying the lag explanation either. If EIN was causing significant amounts of lag I'd expect it to be far more visible to players.

Thanks.