Monks, time to speak up and speak out!

[Xgya]

Can the damage on a save for EiN scale off something, like Melee Power? That'd be a pretty good idea.

[J1NG]

This is actually not true, fyi

Which part?
Live EiN or the one the Devs are making?

Live EiN hits everyone, but Immune are Immune (not very Epic Moment). So it is unlikely you are talking about that. Unless you are mistaken.

The players have seen how AOE spells do their targetting and it's random in the AOE (and it will target Immune mobs too), so unless the Devs are working on solving this (new info), or the Devs are making something that does something differently (again, new info), I beg to differe on that account.

J1NG

[J1NG]

Comments on the how these ideas register with you -- those you like, dislike, can't implement, etc.

Thanks

I like option 6, something that I suggested previously. Then the Epic Moment would then be Epic and can do "something" (and deserves that limitation of 4 and that cooldown), and something likely more than 500 Bane damage which doesn't scale in the slightest... (which if this carries on from Live, is definitely NOT worth the limiation and cooldown) >.>

J1NG

[Mindos]

Sure, gotcha covered. It'll be in an upcoming patch.

Does the Arcane Archer Ranger tree Arrow of Slaying still cause your movement to stop?

[Lynnabel]

Does the Arcane Archer Ranger tree Arrow of Slaying still cause your movement to stop?

Not as of this upcoming patch, actually. It was fixed internally a few weeks ago.

[Emerslochingvyrr]

Not as of this upcoming patch, actually. It was fixed internally a few weeks ago.

Just checking, is this for both the ranger AA and the elf AA trees?

[Lynnabel]

Just checking, is this for both the ranger AA and the elf AA trees?

Yep You're definitely right to ask, they are internally different abilities, good thinking!

[Selvera]

As someone who's played at-cap monk lives running reapers; then did the same with a swashbuckler build, I can say that current monks really aren't over performing. The monk build may have overall slightly higher dps then my swashbuckler, but it's made up for by the additional utility of the swash. In general; I would consider both builds pretty much in the same tier of B-tier dps builds and fairly balanced.

That said; We don't need to suddenly buff swashbucklers by +1[w] and other GMoF goodies while at the same time nerfing monks -0.5[w].

I believe that the GMoF changes should not be focused on being able to be used by anyone with no care in the world; but rather be focused on making anyone have fun with their own unique monk playestyle. Grandmaster already allows folks to be centered, but it's a slog to play in Grandmaster for many builds because it's not worth playing while centered for most builds. If GMoF had enough innate value to other builds/playstyles to being centered, without removing the appeal for being a monk in the destiny; it would achieve the goals set out by the devs in the ED post.

This is why I proposed that GMoF should change a few things:
1) Either ease up on the requirements to be centered (allow it with other weapons) OR grant some basic centered-style (non stacking) feats for running in it. ("while centered and using a quaterstaff, gain the effects of THF, improved THF and greater THF") sort of thing.
2) Grant the basic monk stances to users of the destanies. The upgrades still require monk levels and heroic feats, but the basic water/earth/fire/air stances should be avable regardless of heroic class.
3) Grant some AC bonus for melee builds wearing cloth armor in GMoF, which doesn't stack with monk AC bonus. This could be somewhere in the order of +10 to +15.
4) Everything that currently requires being centered in the destiny should still require being centered. Some things; such as the stance bonuses; could certainly be improved. (it'd be great if they were less bonuses to one specific stance; as much as each granting different bonuses to each stance)

I'd prefer to stay out of the EiN conversation, as it's mostly an argument of cool factor vs lag; but I'd rather EiN not be made nearly impossible to kill the shroud crystal due to short range.

[Nickodeamous]

So, where are we at with EIN? Has our dialog helped improve the crippling of this from 4 mobs to maybe 6 or 8 with a 2 min cooldown?

I spoke to many people last night and they were all flabbergasted at the fact EIN was being "crippled, not nerfed" to quote it how a warlock said. They all said, goodbye GMoF, not just monks and it really resonated with non-monk players for sure.

So, where are we, any compromise? I mean, we are already giving up a massive instakill for 4 every 3 mins. This hurts ALL party members

Thanks again for your help! We all could really use it!

Nico

[Nickodeamous]

I'd prefer to stay out of the EiN conversation, as it's mostly an argument of cool factor vs lag; but I'd rather EiN not be made nearly impossible to kill the shroud crystal due to short range.

^^^^this^^^^

[Marten]

Wow, Cordo nuked both Lynnabel and me? Must have been a pretty epic reply.

How effective is a nuked post? As effective as a monk that is a soul stone. I try to avoid both.

@Lynnabel, missed your post. If any of it is worth repeating, feel free to PM.

Let me start by apologizing if the way I said something crossed a line or made you feel like I was impugning your character. I am a retired Computer / Network Consultant with decades of hands on experience, that doesn't mean I am qualified to work on every system I come across. There is a reason my OP stated the rules of speaking. I find when I feel put in a situation where I have to put them to the side, my words become sharp. While my ex was checking to see if Hell had frozen over from me being made speechless by one of your posts, she also reminded me that when the "jerk" gene was being passed out, I was confused and went through the line more than once. So, I will do my best to be on good behavior again.

Hey! A small thought about dance of flowers.
What if being centered still gave you 1.5W, but if you were uncentered you would only get 1W. This would allow the monks to still have the upper hand in the tree that was meant for them. It may only be .5W, but it would still make sense to have some sort of bonus for being centered in a monk ED.

Just a thought

Sure, sounds good to me.

If you can hold true to the above and being centered will continue to give an added bonus as well as being useful for those un-centered for twisting purposes, that puts a big concern to rest for me.

Hello! This is an early look at the Epic Destiny Pass currently slated for Update 43. (The second Sharn raid is coming before this, so there's still a bit of time before this reaches Lamannia). A few notes about this pass, before we get to details:

We had a few primary goals in the Epic Destiny pass, compounded by a very slim time-frame of 3 weeks for principal changes. *

• First and foremost, try to put each Destiny in a place where it's worth using for at least some builds.
• Fix bugs and remove things that hinder fun or usability
  
  • You'll notice that every Epic Moment that required you to do weird things to charge it up no longer requires that.
  
  
• Improve the ability for people to play in Destinies that match their Archetype (ranged characters in Shiradi, etc) without significantly hindering the current ability for people to play in Destinies that don't (casters in Shiradi, etc)

Like we said above, the timeframe was slim*. We didn't hit everything we would have liked to, and there are still abilities within individual Destinies that still probably aren't worth taking. We're listening for feedback here, but our ability to act on it is similarly time-restricted*; we're unlikely to further revamp whole trees or add completely new skills at this time, but we may be able to make number tweaks and fix outstanding bugs.

When I read phrases like the ones I have highlighted above, if past is prologue, then what it is saying is: changes are already decided and being coded. You have a small window to change our minds, but the bar height for reasons to make us reverse and lose coding hours is very high now. For people like me and many others who care about this game, that is the same as setting off a fire alarm. We want to be heard, but in the past it has either felt like we weren't being given a chance, or we were swimming upstream against an almost impossible current. So, pardon us if many of us act like our hair has just been set on fire.

It is always worth pitching ideas. Out of scope would be something like "a second copy of the ability that 20 monks get" or "this ability makes you coffee" but yeah, go for it

In Scope: EiN should and could be tuned without such a drastic change. The max number of mobs should still be left to null, while reducing the range and increasing the timer on usage. If the original code is that bad as to hurt performance on the server side, then modernize the code. If the time frame allowed to make changes is too small to do this, then 1) leave it alone until there is time or 2) make a temp change with the promise that it will be looked at again in the very near future. The 1.5[W] while centered resolves my other major concern.

I feel I also need to add my voice to those that are saying adding yet another combat attack button is going to be useless for monks. If you need this for twists, may be have it do an alternate action for being centered. (see below out of scope)

Out of Scope: Personally I would love to see something in the tree that let the monk finishing buff last 5 or 10 minutes vs as it stands now, 1 minute.

I would love to see something in the tree that boosts QP. "Spam it until it works," does not make me feel like a master.

Way out of Scope: Legendary Platinum Knuckles, every monk I have spoke to who had high hopes for this item have now either put them in the bank or made them gem food. Reason very, but if I may make a suggestion. Change the Doublestrike 23% to Insightful Doublestrike, may be to 11% since for many, the gloves that are being taken away are Legendary Hammerfist which is one of the very rare items with this stat. Normal Doublestrike is very common and other items could be fit into the mix to replace it, Insightful Doublestrike is a rare bird indeed.

Again, sorry if I crossed any lines. I really care for the game and the monk class in particular. Enough so that I have not only given my time to play it, but many hours of time testing it for free. It also was a major tool used to keep me pushing though the pain of battling cancer (see IRL Epic link below), so I get a little passionate when changes are being suggested. More so when I feel they are moving in the wrong direction.

I also want to thank everyone that has taken the time to speak up here.

* Bold added by Marten

[Ughh]

i am so disheartened by this obvious nerf. We are told for performance and balance. Ok so how is a monk that already has frog (that can kill 6 mobs in 1 min) so overpowered that you must take the main reason to be in GMOF and make it 4 mobs in 3 mins. REALLY? want balance, make it 8 mobs every 2 mins or so and raise the mrr cap for the monk. Monks must fight in melee for alot of their abilities to work i.e jade strike, tomb of jade, etc.and we must wade into the room to use EIN we become automatically vulnerable at that point.It isn't like we can stand behind the doorway in another room or hall and use it like a caster can throw fireball or chain lightning from that spot. ok you say EIN causes performance problems by it's ability to wipe a room out, give it a circumference the size of frog but no limit of mobs.If killing 12 mobs causes server lag, then those same 12 mobs spawning out of nowhere would cause the same lag...12 appear, 12 disappear. a simple if, then chain of commands, those of us that use EIN alot never see performance issues because of it. PLEASE find a better excuse for this load of dung. I find it very interesting that the one epic moment for the monk is becoming an epic JOKE.

[Xgya]

ok you say EIN causes performance problems by it's ability to wipe a room out, give it a circumference the size of frog but no limit of mobs.If killing 12 mobs causes server lag, then those same 12 mobs spawning out of nowhere would cause the same lag...12 appear, 12 disappear. a simple if, then chain of commands, those of us that use EIN alot never see performance issues because of it. PLEASE find a better excuse for this load of dung. I find it very interesting that the one epic moment for the monk is becoming an epic JOKE.

You're not understanding the crux of the issue here. It isn't about performance, but server load, something you cannot visibly test without developer tools.
Performance lag still happens in some areas of the game, and that is also associated with more server load (something that lags out a whole instance has GOT to do something awkward to the server), but they're separate issues.
The instruction sent to the server per mob affected is far too complex, and this, in turn, increases the treatment time for any further instruction.

It IS about balance too (they said they find Mass Frog a bit overtuned atm too, but weren't going to touch it yet), but this is mainly to reduce server load in the time allotted.

The code was made quickly to fit in a tight Turbine schedule at the time, and some errors went by unnoticed, as well as the code itself not following a certain standard that makes parts of it called labyrinthine by anyone reading it. Which means they'd have to rebuild the ability from the ground up, which they're not sure they'll have time for, so they're taking the faster, works-now route.

[Nickodeamous]

Been thinking lately, and here are some thoughts on this whole EIN/Monk fiasco...

Monks have to physically run up to a target to punch them, and as they start the motion, its death from above from a caster standing at the doorway. The monk I run is pretty lethal, and I rely on speed to even get to my targets before they are zapped from afar. I run with casters/warlocks all the time and I rarely lead kills.

I do fairly well with living creatures, and a jade the heck out of reapers, but there is a minor detail that is being overlooked. People think monks/frog/etc are OP? Well, try being a monk and stunning/killing undead. This can only be done one at a time with jade, which has a cool down. Stunning fist doesn't work, quivering palm doesn't work. etc on probably 50% of the game. What does work is frog and EiN. So, yes, DPS is no longer top 5 and we losing our only ability to kill massive amounts of creatures/undead to save a party (which is when I like to use it). Not sure how we are OP to be honest when our bread and butter (stunning) doesn't work on half the game.

Servers are the issue I'm sure, but as a company, raise capital, advertise, get your name out there more. This is an old game. When I tell people I play it, most people don't know it exists. This is a fantastic game, but like all businesses, they need to invest in it, which may mean upgrading older servers, merging servers (i mean you and I both know the worlds are pretty dead nowadays), and getting their name out there.

These abilities have been around for a long time. When is the last time you saw a thread that said "Frog needs nerfed" or "EIN is too powerful"? It never happens because casters rule this game and they can't be bothered cause they know monks are one man show with these one or two abilities.

Let monks have their toys. They have been here for years. (Doesn't mean its right, but does it mean its wrong either?)

just my 2 cents. I'm sure there will be more tomorrow

Nico

[Ovrad]

A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds.

This single change just flats out tells you that nobody that designed these changes knows anything about monks.

Monks are CAPPED at 50 MRR, and you give them a buff of 100 MRR... thanks! Amazing. I guess it wasn't bad enough that since Ravenloft, single items can give more than 50 MRR, making warlock and deep gnomes past lives absolutely worthless for monks, nah better make sure to give them a full 100 bonus that will ALL go to waste as everyone in epics can get 50 MRR.

The MRR caps need to be seriously addressed.

Also keep in mind that any bonus to W to monks is often half the damage of a W to other classes, since wraps only do d6 base damage. So giving a bonus to 1,5 W to monks, but 1 W to an uncentered barb wielding say a Blackrazor, is +5.25 damage for monk, but +11 damage for barb. Thus still giving other classes a way bigger buff.

*sigh*, you know what, I don't even have it in me anymore. Monks were fun for a while, but I can't take the incessant unjustified nerfing... maybe it's time for me to move on.

[Robbenklopper]

It's fair to say that every class should have something to shine with and something that leaves you a little weak. But if your shineys are weak and your weakspots are barely able to be compensable, i like to address them. Monk offers different ways to play, and running it in LD is truely "a fighting melee" while there a others that perform better, instead of having monk run in Gmof to making him a fighting specialist.

[Seph1roth5]

Well, it seems that if the old EiN causes server issues, it'd be better to just change it to something else completely. Someone had an idea earlier in the thread (too lazy to go back through it) about it debuffing enemy's prr or damage and such, that seemed interesting.

Crazy ideas:

1 - Area dispel enemy stuff, maybe stuff that normally can't, like champion buffs?
2 - Phase enemies out for ~10 sec so they can't deal or be dealt damage.
3 - jibbers-like raise for ~10 sec but can't be damaged for that time.
4 - aoe damage, debuff reduces enemy melee/ranged/spellpower by 50 for 20 sec
5 - aoe damage, reduces enemy prr/mrr by 20 for ~30 sec
6 - single target damage, steals buffs from enemy

[Robbenklopper]

I just wonder about why the changes to the EDs have "a short timeframe" for feedback/changes, are aimed to be released with U43 and all at once. One might get the impression it´s a little too much in a too short time or am I just a bit too sensual? Not that the EDs wouldn´t get along unchanged as is for some more weeks since it´s known they´re not in tip-top shape for ... years? Or is it "Now or never" situation we´re facing?
Maybe now would be a good time to say "We´re planning to improve the EDs for December guys, please let´s hear your ideas so we have enough time for a good preparation and implementation" ? Or when is U43 tbr?

[CeltEireson]

This single change just flats out tells you that nobody that designed these changes knows anything about monks.

Monks are CAPPED at 50 MRR, and you give them a buff of 100 MRR... thanks! Amazing. I guess it wasn't bad enough that since Ravenloft, single items can give more than 50 MRR, making warlock and deep gnomes past lives absolutely worthless for monks, nah better make sure to give them a full 100 bonus that will ALL go to waste as everyone in epics can get 50 MRR.

The MRR caps need to be seriously addressed.

I'd suspect that, like a few other abilities, the MRR bonus will ignore cap - at least hopefully.

[Arkat]

I'd suspect that, like a few other abilities, the MRR bonus will ignore cap - at least hopefully.

Ha!!