2019 ED Pass: Primal Sphere

[kain741]

That's really specifically not our balance goal here.



I mean...

• Shiradi already has plenty of things that work for ranged characters but not for barbs or wolf druid, because they're ranged-related
• Primal Avatar has several things that specifically work when Two Weapon Fighting or in animal form, but not for bow-users or THF melees

& that's before diving into other Destinies and the things that they have that work well for some archetypes and not-at-all for others.

Wolf Druids, Tempests, and most Barbs are doing just fine. In the revamped version of this tree, they're getting a slight bump compared to what they can do in the tree now. Two-Hander users are less fine, so we're giving them a little extra shine in the tree that most closely aligns with that archetype.

So using that logic, why are you working to separate GMOF from being a monk tree? The essence of it has and should be where all monks what to end up. Right now that's not the case as they are going to LD...instead of making the tree more focused to bring monks into their designed destiny you are generalizing the ED to lure others in. At best I have to say your mission in balancing the destinies is inconsistent and confusing. Why is it ok to focus DC, shiradi, Fury, Magister, Draconic and Primal Avatar but not GMOF?

[Saaluta]

Hello! This is an early look at the Epic Destiny Pass currently slated for Update 43. (The second Sharn raid is coming before this, so there's still a bit of time before this reaches Lamannia). A few notes about this pass, before we get to details:

[*]Rainbow's random damage scales with 200% ranged power.
[/LIST]

Would it be possible to also have this scale with 200% spell power as well, Steel?

Saal

[Chacka_DDO]

At first, Two-Handed-Fighting needs obviously a big overhaul and rebalance!

But for the Fury of the Wild destiny, I would foremost wish that Adrenaline is working for melee similar to how it works for bow users.
This means if you activate it, it should work on a cleave and it should also affect all grazing hits on your next swing with your Two-Handed Weapon!
This would make Fury of the Wild for melee as great fun as it is for archers.
And yes fun comes also from the power, the power has to be comparable and if one ability falls behind in power too much, it is just not much fun to use it anymore.
Maybe Adrenaline needs an increased cooldown time then or Unbridled Fury needs to be different too.
Maybe Unbridled Fury could be a lasting Adrenaline effect with only 200% more damage and not 400%.
And maybe Overwhelming Force needs to be different too then, e.g. only working 50% under the effect of adrenaline.

[Arlathen]

Fury of the Wild
This is a Pretty Good destiny in its current state, but not enough Melees found reason to stick with this one vs. Dreadnought. We'd especially like Two Handed Fighters to hang out here, so we added some spice for them. Please note that "Two Handed Fighting Style" does not include Natural Weapon Style (aka Wolves, Bears, Trees).

• Cores each add an additional +2 Damage with Two-Handed Weapons (along with what they currently do)
• Fury made Placid is reduced to a 2% chance on no save. Healing scales with Melee Power. Gain +10% Doublestrike and +20 PRR and MRR while in this state.
• Unbridled Fury no longer requires charging. (Keeps its 5 minute cooldown).
• You can now use Unbridled Fury while under Antimagic.
• NEW: T1: (Multiselector with Boulder Toss): Boulder's Might: Requires being in Two-Handed Fighting style to use (i.e. no Natural Fighting). 5[w] attack, 6 second cooldown. Rank 2 and 3 add +1 and +2 Critical Multiplier on that attack. (3 Ranks, 1AP Each)
• NEW: T5: Devastating Blow (+1 Critical Multiplier on 19-20 with Melee weapons) (1 Rank, 2AP)
• NEW: T5: Strong Swings: +10 Melee Power. While fighting in Two Handed Fighting style, this is instead +25. (1 Rank, 2AP)

Is there any chance we could ever get a way around Adrenaline not working with Defensive Stances from Sacred Defender or Stalwart Defender? Perhaps even as a new T6 ability? Or as passive rider to another ability?

I realise that this is a 'Primal' Destiny, intended for Barbarians, but if this going to be the destiny for THF Paladins / Fighters to hang out in then ... its either no Adrenaline attacks or leave a large part of the enhancement-based defenses on the floor, counter-productive to any attempts to make the characters work in more difficult content.

I do appreciate putting buffs in Cores and T5/T6 to make the destiny more attractive for THF users over other Destiny choices, but... that's a nasty choice to make

Further, there seems to be a few ways around proper Barbarian Rage for Spellcasters these days, why isn't there for the more discerning melee combatants out there?

[Grailhawk]

There have been numerous changes already - including me frantically making a brand new ability in Fury of the Wild - in response to feedback.

Can you share with us what this is?

[Lynnabel]

Can you share with us what this is?

Oh, it's the Vorpal Threat Range in T6 for THF. I think Steel posted about it earlier in the thread, but it's tentatively in the tree as of right now.

[Pilgrim1]

So sometimes i play a dc caster druid.

Lets say before epic destines are considered i have 100 evocation DC.

In primal i can get +8 wisdom, and 2 twists for 5 more. Total of 109 DC evocation and 104 for the others.
In EA i can get +6 wisdom, +3 dc to all, and 2 twists for 5 more. Total of 111 evocation and 106 for the others.
In (new) magister i can get +0 wisdom, +5 to all, +6 to evocation, +2 more from a twist. Total 113 evocation, 105 others.

Now im all for some destinies being worse DC’s then others but there has to be something to balance out the cost of running in a destiny that has worse DC. So what does primal give to my caster druid to benifit from the loss? 30 spell power, 2 defensive abilities that dint really work, a twistable cocoon, a pet buff to a non-used pet and some silly other things that i dont have the ap to get because i spend 12 points on wisdom.

There is no draw for this destiny! Hell i could be in furry of the wild with furry made placid and have the same dc’s but more hp.


Please please please consider what the draw is for any given destiny.

[dsmwhiteknight]

We're considering pulling the cooldown down slightly; need to run a few numbers first.

Also, blrgh. I forgot we used that name in Deepwood. (Name literally a few hundred things a year and you start to forget what's already taken). Well, we're open to suggestions.

Thank you for looking at reducing the cooldown on Horizon Shot. I agree with Yamani that it is just too high. I absolutely LOVE running an archer even though I know I could do far more damage running other styles and I love Shiradi, but have not been using it because Fury is so much better. I do not think I would switch from Fury with such a high cool down. With Adrenaline Overload I can get off at least two shots while I am running boosts like Manyshot and so the new "Horizon Shot" just would not compare.

How about naming it something like Devastating Shot? Maybe even set it up similar to Adrenaline Overload with charges that recharge on vorpals due to learning opponents weaknesses? Not sure about that just because it is a single item/ability unlike Adrenaline Overload which is a theme in Fury.

[Neo-Masamune]

U guys could make the cooldown be exactly like arrow of slaying from Arcane Archer(20s) the sinergy would be best!

Call it Wild Shot!

The Archer is my favorite class! Looking foward for the update! When will it come? next Month or so?

I am Excited!

Thats my feedback! Keep up the good Job!

Cheers!

[lyrecono]

Oh, it's the Vorpal Threat Range in T6 for THF. I think Steel posted about it earlier in the thread, but it's tentatively in the tree as of right now.

I saw that, glad to see any 2hf stuff done, i'm wondering if the issues with 2hf are going to be adressed?

Even with double the possible procs, you're still 2 to 3 times behind the other playstyles when it comes to attack speed.
All because cleaves and glancing blows don't get doublestrike (and glancing blows don't get crits so no vorpal either).
Cordo mentioned something in the martial thread about looking into that. What is the status on that?
Because all these changes to the ED mean nothing if you can't use them.
The main reason a lot of 2hf toons, esp barbarians, use LD instead of fury because it's more reliable dps, even if you can't keep a blitz up with 5 spelcasters instakilling everything left right and center or run the risk of gaining agro from a weak tank and dying instantly in reaper, it is still more consistant dps then fury at the moment because adrenaline charges don't replenish (low proc rate on 2hf), hence fury was used more by ranged toons due to high attack rate.
To make things worse, swf has acces to an extended vorpal range already.
Another issue is the to hit bonus, most melee and ranged will run with presision, bypassing an extra 25% fort and. Have +10 more to hit and confirm vorpals then a power attack user (or +16 over a horc barb). A barb can't rage with presision. So other playstyles have more to gain from fury of the wild (aka faster regen of charges).
So many of us barbs (the 5-6 left in the endgame meta) are wondering what these changes will be, it seems more important then a double vorpal rate for 2hf

[J-mann]

Thanks for the feedback so far! To tackle some replies:


We're considering pulling the cooldown down slightly; need to run a few numbers first.

Also, blrgh. I forgot we used that name in Deepwood. (Name literally a few hundred things a year and you start to forget what's already taken). Well, we're open to suggestions.


We can pull the Positive out of Rainbow.


(This is regarding Primal Travel): Nope. It's got 50% Dodge that ignores your cap, plus it's a get-out-of-a-bad-situation jump; compare to Meld Into Darkness, which has a higher No-Dodge-Cap-Dodge but no jump, and a 33% longer cooldown.


Hrm. We might be able to tweak Stormrage's DC depending on how it's implemented... Not sure. Will take a poke if there's time.


1) There are concerns beyond this one, but the primary one is that this (the creation of 200+ new stat-based enhancements) would be a very large undertaking that we hard-cannot fit into the time we have.
2) We have balance concerns with that, and don't plan to do that.
3) Melee and Ranged power already exist in the Core abilities of the Destinies at levels we are happy with - Except for Shiradi, where we're now considering a sizeable boost to Ranged Power.

Shiradi definitely needs more rp to compete with ld and blitz. Even with the buffs I have a hard time seeing myself using Shiradi over LD as LD gets more RP, Boosts, Shorter CD boosts, and better defenses. Shiradi could also use some consolidation and buffing on the wellspring line, its way too many ap for little to no benefit for now. Can we also get some scaling for stormrage? its ok at 20, pathetic at 30, and you will see this issue with several ED abilities. And I will agree with others that some druid important dcs (evocation and conjuration) would be nice for Primal. As for Fury.... im not really a fan of the mechanics behind it so I dont really use it but I cannot see many using Fury made Placid even with the buff as it cancels out basically the whole rest of the destiny. If your going to us fury made placid why not just be in LD or DC?

[J-mann]

I saw that, glad to see any 2hf stuff done, i'm wondering if the issues with 2hf are going to be adressed?

Even with double the possible procs, you're still 2 to 3 times behind the other playstyles when it comes to attack speed.
All because cleaves and glancing blows don't get doublestrike (and glancing blows don't get crits so no vorpal either).
Cordo mentioned something in the martial thread about looking into that. What is the status on that?
Because all these changes to the ED mean nothing if you can't use them.
The main reason a lot of 2hf toons, esp barbarians, use LD instead of fury because it's more reliable dps, even if you can't keep a blitz up with 5 spelcasters instakilling everything left right and center or run the risk of gaining agro from a weak tank and dying instantly in reaper, it is still more consistant dps then fury at the moment because adrenaline charges don't replenish (low proc rate on 2hf), hence fury was used more by ranged toons due to high attack rate.
To make things worse, swf has acces to an extended vorpal range already.
Another issue is the to hit bonus, most melee and ranged will run with presision, bypassing an extra 25% fort and. Have +10 more to hit and confirm vorpals then a power attack user (or +16 over a horc barb). A barb can't rage with presision. So other playstyles have more to gain from fury of the wild (aka faster regen of charges).
So many of us barbs (the 5-6 left in the endgame meta) are wondering what these changes will be, it seems more important then a double vorpal rate for 2hf

Yeah making these changes prior to fixing 2hf seems cart before the horse. Not sure why the devs seem to not want to talk about it but this has been something the community has been asking for for quite some time now with little dev acknowledgement.

[kuzka111]

[COLOR=#000000 !important] Originally Posted by Steelstar
Truth be told, our plans for changes of that magnitude rarely have anything to do with anyone being vocal about anything.

We have no current plans for any changes to Mass Frog.

We have no currently-slated plans for changes to Dire Charge, though it's overpowered and has been for years. There may come a time in the future where we do change it, but it won't because of any discussion here.

We talk internally about around 10x the number of changes that eventually turn into reality. Things that need to change for balance reasons, but that we don't immediately pull the trigger on for logistical or production reasons.


[/COLOR]

from about 1 year now i see only melee nerfs:
- now you say you should sooner or later nerf dire charge
- nerf for combat brute
- nerf for prowress set
- nerfed power surge on fighter ( yes nerf i got max 6 power surge bc capston on kensai is just... 2nd power surge is not action boost so its dont get combat brute oh thats geting nerfed too )
- you guys gived 25% hp boost for every melee exept fighter and pally that almost killed both class (pally was dead...)


so i want to ask whats the point to playing Fighter or Pally? when you can get like 3-6 lvls of them and you get all that are is good on them... ( Pally is joke and yes i know you want to improve him but when i see what you do with melee im just afraid...)


IMO:

-Fighter should get new power surge more charge example base 6 , lvl18 +3 , lvl 20 +3
2nd idea change power surge to 2 min duration
3th (imo best ) 5 charge but like deadly insticts

-Fighter heavy armor feats shoudl give prr/mrr + ac ( atm ac is too hard to get compere to dodge...)

-Paladin how is it that fighter got heavy armor feats and pally dont pally is low on feats then give him feat that gives him prr/mrr/ac scaled with lvl of pally

-THF suck now every1 know that ppl, so lots of ppl write this give them crit/vorpal/doublestrike on glancing blows

-if you dont want wolfs to be overpowerd then stop glancing blows on wolf from or just make it Twf form ( imo that always was stupid how thf weapon transform in to paw's)

- another thing is heavy armors how is that when you do items all armors get same prr... ac suck atm like i said you need to sacrefice lots of dps too get good ac (dodge is very easy to get)
imo you should boost ac on armors or change amout of prr on armor how is it that outfit (clothing) give same dmg reduc that heavy armor... and dont tell me that heavey get more form bab bc its just nothing
at otufit i can easy get 200+prr even when at heavy amror i get 250+ prr its only 1-2% more reduction.... bc of formula you invented


to all haters:
-yes i only melee
-yes my fav is heavy amrorer with THF
-yes im UBER/ULTIMATE complesionist and i so crapy player that im whining here (sarcasm xD)

but to tell you the truth guys atm i paly less and less bc all build that i did are just **** and its not bc im geting old or just weak or somthing just this game started to hate melee's(fighter/pally)
and i dont say that barb/monk/ranger are op they are just in way better spot now (barb should get some love too)


btw i did thead about this half year ago and most ppl said i just panic

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ility-whining!

[FuzzyDuck81]

Really liking the changes to Shiradi, will be nice to still have the BOOM HEADSHOT option that I get running in fury (gxbow mechanic railgun is just FUN), but have more ranged power & not need to twist in pin & otto's, so I can have something else useful in those slots instead - ok, no more "burn it down" unbridled fury for room clearance/boss destruction but swings & roundabouts.

Oh hey, maybe "boom headshot" could be an alternative to the duplicate horizon shot name for that ability?

[Ballrus]

[*]NEW: T1: (Multiselector with Boulder Toss): Boulder's Might: Requires being in Two-Handed Fighting style to use (i.e. no Natural Fighting). 5[w] attack, 6 second cooldown. Rank 2 and 3 add +1 and +2 Critical Multiplier on that attack. (3 Ranks, 1AP Each)
[*]NEW: T5: Strong Swings: +10 Melee Power. While fighting in Two Handed Fighting style, this is instead +25. (1 Rank, 2AP)

Work only with two handed weapon equipped, or work with hand and half weapon using two handed feats? (b swd/d axe + thf feats).

Thanks.

Keep it tied to thf feats, not two handed weapons if possible.

Thanks.

[btolson]

In an effort to make Power Attack more relevant, esp for a destiny that seems like it synergize with it greatly, maybe add:

Overpowering Attacks: While Power Attack stance is active you have a 25% chance to punch through your enemy's defenses, ignoring their fortification*

*this would be a chance at bypassing all fortification completely, rather than a stacking 25% fort bypass


PA will still be numerically worse than Precision, but not by nearly as much

[iPuffinstuff]

Thank you for this...I've always hated running in LD with a bow user. Stand and Deliver will close the gap a little with the additional multiplier.

Agreed. Shiradi now sounds exciting. I dislike running LD. It was the ONLY feasible tree to run with a bow for sustained dps. Fury has burst, LD imho was and is the best pewpew ED.
My suggestion, add some kind of ranged alacrity in the core for a bow as another forum poster suggested. Another thing, Ranged Power. If we are going to lose the huge amount of ranged power that LD gives us I sadly will still be running LD.

[Dreppo]

• Whirling Wrists also grants +2/4/6% Doubleshot.

Just to clarify, does this doubleshot only apply to thrown weapons?

[dragons1ayer74]

I know you mentioned that "Avatar of Nature" is still weak but could you at least make it a little more viable. How about double your suggested duration, so your Epic Moment would last for a full minute

Or alternately reduced cool down would at least make it more fun and more usable. Or at least lower the cool down by x seconds per druid level or nature lore.

The whole "Avatar of Nature" is certainly in a sorry state it was interesting to see some of the cheese tree builds but even then they where gimmicky, weird and had lots of drawbacks the best case solution would to somehow see these big fellows return as a key feature or idea to a build.

Looking forward to all the changes and glad to see the dev team care and are trying to move the game forward, keep up the good work.

[Grailhawk]

Fury of the Wild
This is a Pretty Good destiny in its current state, but not enough Melees found reason to stick with this one vs. Dreadnought. We'd especially like Two Handed Fighters to hang out here, so we added some spice for them. Please note that "Two Handed Fighting Style" does not include Natural Weapon Style (aka Wolves, Bears, Trees).

• Cores each add an additional +2 Damage with Two-Handed Weapons (along with what they currently do)
• Fury made Placid is reduced to a 2% chance on no save. Healing scales with Melee Power. Gain +10% Doublestrike and +20 PRR and MRR while in this state.
• Unbridled Fury no longer requires charging. (Keeps its 5 minute cooldown).
• You can now use Unbridled Fury while under Antimagic.
• NEW: T1: (Multiselector with Boulder Toss): Boulder's Might: Requires being in Two-Handed Fighting style to use (i.e. no Natural Fighting). 5[w] attack, 6 second cooldown. Rank 2 and 3 add +1 and +2 Critical Multiplier on that attack. (3 Ranks, 1AP Each)
• NEW: T5: Devastating Blow (+1 Critical Multiplier on 19-20 with Melee weapons) (1 Rank, 2AP)
• NEW: T5: Strong Swings: +10 Melee Power. While fighting in Two Handed Fighting style, this is instead +25. (1 Rank, 2AP)

Oh, it's the Vorpal Threat Range in T6 for THF. I think Steel posted about it earlier in the thread, but it's tentatively in the tree as of right now.

This isn't going to work as a T6 there aren't enough AP for it.

You need to spend 20 AP to get to Tier 5 this leaves 4 AP to spend between Tier 5 and Tier 6. Devastating Blow, Strong Swings, Fury Eternal and Unbridled Fury are the 4 AP you spend at the top of the tree you have no AP left for the new enhancement. Furthermore part of the goal (correct me if I'm wrong) of this new enhancement is to to help balance Fury Eternal for TWF and THF its essentially something TWF gets free that THF doesn't have IMO this new enhancement needs to be part of the core.