2019 ED Pass: Primal Sphere

[Tilomere]

A decent lock ( a caster class) could, if they picked shinning through...

A decent lock doesn't have Shining Through.

[lyrecono]

A decent lock doesn't have Shining Through.

Til, that depends on your definition, i see a few veteran players pushback against this reaper craze (being well over a 100 reaper points) and don't want to farm rexp any further if it means it takes them of their fav builds.
At best they run r1 for the extra base exp.
The entire reaper gear farm no longer means anything to them, they know past lives are a worthwille investment, gear never is.

On elite and r1 quests, a burst lock with shining through works just fine.

[Grailhawk]

Not really,

2hf is the lowest dps playstyle for a couple of reasons.
Glancing blow damage falls to the side on high reaper, making it useless.
Double strike doesn't work on glancing blows and cleaves (rememer, a 2hf could easily have7-8 aoe cleave-like attacks, combined with a few single target abilities), cleaving and twitching has always been used to generate the dps to avoid the extremely slow atack rate. If you're auto attack for doublestrikes on regular attacks (because the glancing blows give none anyway), then you're wasting dps and the parties time and resources.
Twitching and cleaving also add battlefield mobility to the mix, handy for classes with less physical defences then some of the caster classes.

Proper Twitching does not use Cleaves or Special Attacks; Special Attacks cycling is a good way to lower you DPS because of the 1 second global cooldown proper twitching attacks with normal attack far faster than one per second and and benefits from Doublestrike and Alacrity. (Proper Twitching is what THF should do vs bosses and big sacks of HP they should not use special attacks for the most part when fighting a bosses and most definitely shouldn't be cycling though )

Cleave Special Attack cycling is only good when you are significantly more powerful then the contend or when you are trying to maximize AOE DPS, maybe.

Its all about the base weapon damage not the Glancing Blow and Doublestrike and Alacrity increase that more than anything really.

None of this means that Glancing Blows don't need a bit of improvement but they don't need a massive boost like you are making it out to be.

[FestusHood]

Proper Twitching does not use Cleaves or Special Attacks; Special Attacks cycling is a good way to lower you DPS because of the 1 second global cooldown proper twitching attacks with normal attack far faster than one per second and and benefits from Doublestrike and Alacrity. (Proper Twitching is what THF should do vs bosses and big sacks of HP they should not use special attacks for the most part when fighting a bosses and most definitely shouldn't be cycling though )

Cleave Special Attack cycling is only good when you are significantly more powerful then the contend or when you are trying to maximize AOE DPS, maybe.

Its all about the base weapon damage not the Glancing Blow and Doublestrike and Alacrity increase that more than anything really.

None of this means that Glancing Blows don't need a bit of improvement but they don't need a massive boost like you are making it out to be.

Yes, i've always agreed that the main strikes from cleaves and special attacks should be allowed to doublestrike. That's probably the main thing that 'gimps' the fighting style. Glancing blows give a percentage of your normal damage, so they should be reduced in reaper at the same rate as the main hits. I don't see why he thinks they are exceptionally hard hit.

[Celender]

Yes, i've always agreed that the main strikes from cleaves and special attacks should be allowed to doublestrike.

Only when THF and no animal form, though. Otherwise the balance we all seek between fighting style will never happen. Each fighting style should bring something unique. Can add this effect to Greater or Perfect THF feat.

[DaviMOC]

None of this means that Glancing Blows don't need a bit of improvement but they don't need a massive boost like you are making it out to be.

That depends. Where it is? Compared to what? Why someone would give up offhand attacks or extra defenses plus shield bashes or extra attack speed for a weaker , lower effects procs rate and no critical hit attack?

For single target its a clear loose loose situation. For AoE it just stinks when you have stuff like Lay Waste, Eldrich Tempest, tantrum and other cleave attacks with extra [W] damage and improved critical profile or AoE spells.

So yes, they need a massive boost or a complete different approach to 2hf.

[Celender]

That depends. Where it is? Compared to what? Why someone would give up offhand attacks or extra defenses plus shield bashes or extra attack speed for a weaker , lower effects procs rate and no critical hit attack?

For single target its a clear loose loose situation. For AoE it just stinks when you have stuff like Lay Waste, Eldrich Tempest, tantrum and other cleave attacks with extra [W] damage and improved critical profile or AoE spells.

So yes, they need a massive boost or a complete different approach to 2hf.

I agree they should test doublestrike for cleave and glancing blows when u have THF feat and wielding a 2hander weapon.

My beef with TWF is that it is too easy to get to 100% offhand, this basically means 100% doublestrike out of the bat.
TWF offhand attack should be capped at 60% and only rangers and fighters should be able to hit 100% through tree enhancements (tempest core and kenshei group specialization T3 or T4).
Monks will cry but they don't need extra offhand attacks, since they have high attack speed, high dodge, and high prr and AC for a toon wearing pijamas

[Grailhawk]

That depends. Where it is? Compared to what? Why someone would give up offhand attacks or extra defenses plus shield bashes or extra attack speed for a weaker , lower effects procs rate and no critical hit attack?

For single target its a clear loose loose situation. For AoE it just stinks when you have stuff like Lay Waste, Eldrich Tempest, tantrum and other cleave attacks with extra [W] damage and improved critical profile or AoE spells.

So yes, they need a massive boost or a complete different approach to 2hf.

Well it depends on your definition of massive boost. All they need is crits, and because of the AOE and STR advantage what I'm not sure about is how much damage they should do on crits I think its smart to start small 17-20x2 only and then work your way up if needed.

IMO THF should have the same kind of damage bonus as TWF when you are fighting two enemies.

If TWF offhand didn't have a STR penalty and THF didn't have an STR advantage and both crit at the same rate you could say:

• TWF is a 80% increase to DPS (80% chance to do a second attack at 100% damage)
• THF is a 37.5% increase to DPS (75% chance to do an extra 50% damage .75*.5 = .375)

This means that if you are fighting two targets you are doing an extra 2 x 37.5% = 75% damage that's pretty close to the 80% given the STR advantage I think we are in the right ball park but we need more Math (that takes more time than I'm willing to commit to at this time) or Play testing to really see where its at so start small and work your way up.

[DaviMOC]

Well it depends on your definition of massive boost. All they need is crits, and because of the AOE and STR advantage what I'm not sure about is how much damage they should do on crits I think its smart to start small 17-20x2 only and then work your way up if needed.

IMO THF should have the same kind of damage bonus as TWF when you are fighting two enemies.

If TWF offhand didn't have a STR penalty and THF didn't have an STR advantage and both crit at the same rate you could say:

• TWF is a 80% increase to DPS (80% chance to do a second attack at 100% damage)
• THF is a 37.5% increase to DPS (75% chance to do an extra 50% damage .75*.5 = .375)

This means that if you are fighting two targets you are doing an extra 2 x 37.5% = 75% damage that's pretty close to the 80% given the STR advantage I think we are in the right ball park but we need more Math (that takes more time than I'm willing to commit to at this time) or Play testing to really see where its at so start small and work your way up.

Thing is you dont aim for doing glancing blows as you do aim offhand attacks( that also gets doublestrikes and crits) as their usage are different and glancing blows are less appliable.

Why? As I said before, while theorycrafting they look comparable or even better( if you add even more targets) you dont want to have a group of mobs surviving this long as you wont survive much longer either. Also those that survives hardly would stand grouped long enough to make glancing blows procs reasonable worth.

For groups you need to use fast high pitch damage such as cleave attacks or the more common nowdays, a spellcaster nuker to kill it while they're still together or still on CC. You only aim for continuous sustained DPS procs such as glancing blow/doublestrike/offhand/extra shield bash when you're single targeting bosses or hardy champs making glancing blows self contradictory.

I cant imagine making glancing blows good enough too, if they take an approach such as yours with a fixed critical profile while it could work now it wont scale and it would get outdated when power grows as it already did.( glancing blows used to be ok when alacrity and doblestrike wasnt that common and critical profile wasnt that volatile as it is nowdays).Or end up making it too overpowered and rendering cleave atacks even less useful. Thats why I think another approach should be taken.

[Grailhawk]

First there are two discussion going on here one I agree with one we have different believes on scale and possibly goal.
I agree a new complete rework of the combat systems is ideal, but short of that any improvements to THF need to maintain current design goal where THF is inferior to TWF and SWF vs a Single target.

Thing is you dont aim for doing glancing blows as you do aim offhand attacks( that also gets doublestrikes and crits) as their usage are different and glancing blows are less appliable.

Please elaborate on what you mean by aim?

Offhand Attacks only get Doublstrike as a separate stat and for non Rangers and Monks I believe the cap is 16% any attempt to add Doublestrike to Glancing Blows would need to follow similar rules or would probably make THF the be all end all of melee combat styles which is bad.

Why? As I said before, while theorycrafting they look comparable or even better( if you add even more targets) you dont want to have a group of mobs surviving this long as you wont survive much longer either. Also those that survives hardly would stand grouped long enough to make glancing blows procs reasonable worth.

For groups you need to use fast high pitch damage such as cleave attacks or the more common nowdays, a spellcaster nuker to kill it while they're still together or still on CC. You only aim for continuous sustained DPS procs such as glancing blow/doublestrike/offhand/extra shield bash when you're single targeting bosses or hardy champs making glancing blows self contradictory.

( glancing blows used to be ok when alacrity and doblestrike wasnt that common and critical profile wasnt that volatile as it is nowdays).

The meta is the meta it will change again.

Glancing Blows used to be ok (2012-2016) because what we fought was weaker and the raid scene was pretty dry, in the 20 Cap days when Epics were hard and Raids were run (2009-2011) people felt the same way about THF and TWF as they do today. (with the exception of SOS).

Its not about the how much Doublestrike and Alacrity are in the game, this isn't something caused by power creep this is inherent to the design of the system.

I cant imagine making glancing blows good enough too, if they take an approach such as yours with a fixed critical profile while it could work now it wont scale and it would get outdated when power grows as it already did. Or end up making it too overpowered and rendering cleave atacks even less useful. Thats why I think another approach should be taken.

Whats your definition of good enough, and is it focused on Single Target DPS? IMO THF under the current design should be at best 70-80% of the DPS that TWF has.

Finally like I said at the start I do agree a complete redesign is what is needed, you can see my thoughts on what that should be in the Combat Styles Ideas link in my sig, if you do redesign the system then you can balance around something other then AOE vs Single Target, otherwise your stuck with the current design.

[DaviMOC]

Please elaborate on what you mean by aim?

To work on it and expect that it does its job. To fight expecting that those glancing blows to be meaningful in a group when you have cleaves and AoE spells.
Any class can get up to 20% offhand doublestrike on vistani.

Its not about the how much Doublestrike and Alacrity are in the game, this isn't something caused by power creep this is inherent to the design of the system.

Even if its not intended some power increases benefits more an aspect than another. Glancing blows dont benefit from criticals and doublestrikes. When you increase attack speed you increase crtical rate per second and double strikes per second as when you increase critical power none of this benefits glancing blows. Its like on hit effects such as weapon effects ( mortal fear) or abilities (spellblades) that favors atk speed. The way how 2HF/glancing blows are designed dosent scale well on how power creep works nowdays and thats a huge part of its issues.

Same issue with Power Attacks one of two handed style strenghts gets less useful when the content difficulty grows and the need/utility for precison keeps the same or grows higher.

Whats your definition of good enough, and is it focused on Single Target DPS? IMO THF under the current design should be at best 70-80% of the DPS that TWF has.

My definition is to stand relevant and have a proper usage. When I try to think and find a place/change for glancing blows I cant see it without it taking the place of cleaves or just making it a better version of offhand attacks.
For AoE you have cleaves. If you make glancing blows relevant you make cleaves useless as they already costs AP/FEATS and got cooldowns. If you're making group encounters long enough for glancing blows to be relevant we have more actors and issues to the balanced that are tanks, healers, spellcasters, sp, etc. Much more work for a dumb mechanic.

AoE also seems like a caster job so another actor enters to the balance.


Dosent look like we disagree much. I just wanted to make clear what I was talking about.

[Grailhawk]

Even if its not intended some power increases benefits more an aspect than another. Glancing blows dont benefit from criticals and doublestrikes. When you increase attack speed you increase crtical rate per second and double strikes per second as when you increase critical power none of this benefits glancing blows. Its like on hit effects such as weapon effects ( mortal fear) or abilities (spellblades) that favors atk speed. The way how 2HF/glancing blows are designed dosent scale well on how power creep works nowdays and thats a huge part of its issues.

Same issue with Power Attacks one of two handed style strenghts gets less useful when the content difficulty grows and the need/utility for precison keeps the same or grows higher.

When you increase Alacrity you also increase Glancing Blows per second, they don't have a cooldown they trigger on the 1,2,4 attacks in the animation which is faster with alacrity.

I agree with the crit issue Glancing Blows need to scale with critical hits I'm unsure of how much they need to scale though.

[LurkingVeteran]

Well it depends on your definition of massive boost. All they need is crits, and because of the AOE and STR advantage what I'm not sure about is how much damage they should do on crits I think its smart to start small 17-20x2 only and then work your way up if needed.

IMO THF should have the same kind of damage bonus as TWF when you are fighting two enemies.

If TWF offhand didn't have a STR penalty and THF didn't have an STR advantage and both crit at the same rate you could say:

• TWF is a 80% increase to DPS (80% chance to do a second attack at 100% damage)
• THF is a 37.5% increase to DPS (75% chance to do an extra 50% damage .75*.5 = .375)

This means that if you are fighting two targets you are doing an extra 2 x 37.5% = 75% damage that's pretty close to the 80% given the STR advantage I think we are in the right ball park but we need more Math (that takes more time than I'm willing to commit to at this time) or Play testing to really see where its at so start small and work your way up.

The math I see thrown around on THF seems pretty misleading.

Note that THF does not:
1) proc on every strike (75%, or as low as 50% while moving, which you should in DDO. So a factor of x1.5-2 damage loss)
2) does not crit (a factor of ~2x with a good weapon, 1-handers mostly unfortunately)
3) does not double strike (a factor of x1.5])
4) does not sneak attack (a factor of x1.5? with Ethereal Plane)

Multiply those together and off-hand procs would do 7-9x more damage than glancing blows on a single target assuming strength and base damage are similar. They aren't, but that is the main thing THF has going for it. I'm not sure what actual single target sustained DPS numbers are for tricked-out THF vs. TWF now, but from numbers alone I would guesstimate them at 60-75% with little of that coming from glancing blows.

This could be OK if THF AoE damage was competitive, but it unfortunately falls off a cliff due to the rising importance of the above factors into epics. By end game, DPS from glancing blows can be <20% of regular strike DPS. Meanwhile Rangers can DoD four targets for 100% DPS and monks do 3-4 cleaves with one attack.

As an aside, I wonder if DEX Falchion with Ethereal Plane is paradoxically now actually the best end-game THF single target (possibly cleave) DPS. It just synergizes poorly w/ barb rage.

[Grailhawk]

The math I see thrown around on THF seems pretty misleading.

No its not. I'm looking at the combat styles and addressing the inherent issue between them in general I'm not looking at the best TWF build and the best THF build and addressing those issue which are far more complicated but not the right place to start. We need to start at the ground floor and then work our way up so that we can have a good foundation to build on.

Note that THF does not:
1) proc on every strike (75%, or as low as 50% while moving, which you should in DDO. So a factor of x1.5-2 damage loss)

And Offhand Procs (OHP) only proc on 80% of attacks, and don't proc at all while moving unless that was fixed while I was gone (vaguely remember something about that maybe). Getting 100% OHP is like building a THF to get 80% GB damage its a build choice not part of the combat style.

2) does not crit (a factor of ~2x with a good weapon, 1-handers mostly unfortunately)

Right. And this needs to change.

3) does not double strike (a factor of x1.5])

Neither do OHP unless you add a second DS stat (OHDS) and it caps very low for most TWFs, same should apply to GB.

4) does not sneak attack (a factor of x1.5 at least with Ethereal Plane)

This is a build choice more than a combat style issue. Its fine if Sneak Attack builds favor TWF or SWF over THF, as long as there are other build options for THF.

Multiply those together and off-hand procs would do 7-9x more damage than glancing blows on a single target assuming strength and base damage are similar. They aren't, but that is the main thing THF has going for it. I'm not sure what actual single target sustained DPS numbers are for tricked-out THF vs. TWF now, but from numbers alone I would guesstimate them at 65-75% with little of that coming from glancing blows.

This could be OK if THF AoE damage was competitive, but it unfortunately falls off a cliff due to the rising importance of the above factors into epics. By end game, DPS from glancing blows can be <20% of regular strike DPS. Meanwhile Rangers can DoD four targets for 100% DPS and monks do 3-4 cleaves with one attack.

Tempest Ranger and Whirlwind Monks are builds not combat styles balance the combat styles then look at the builds that cross/blur those lines and fix or nerf them appropriately. This is why I think adding a crit multiplier to GB is the right thing to do (if we are not rebuilding and balancing all combat styles) It increases there effectiveness in AOE and single target situations but does not make GB into offhand attacks.

We are doing two different things with our math Your looking at the building and seeing that it sucks I'm looking foundation and saying it needs work first.

[Duhboy]

I personally don't think adding a crit multiplier on GB alone is really going to solve the underlining issue with THF.

Greater SWF for example gives a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and +6 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You also apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage. (Similar to THF).

Greater TWF increases the chance to proc an off-hand attack by 20%, bringing the total chance to 80%.

Greater THF adds a glancing blow to your attack sequence, and increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by an additional 10% for a total of 50%. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows by an additional 3% for a total of 9%. Your Combat Style bonus to Melee Power is increased to +6.

The advantages of TWF is the multiple amounts of hits you can do because of off-hand and off-hand doublestrike. SWF has attack speed and adding 50% more of whatever ability score you use for damage. THF doesn't have an attack speed bonus like SWF nor can it strike multiple times like TWF (offhand attacks and off hand double strikes).

So the simplest way in helping THF out is increase x% amount more of your appropriate ability score to your main damage and glancing blow damage. If you really want attack speed bonus with it then have it tided in with Fury of the Wild.


Now onto Fury of the Wild ED.
After looking through the cores, tier 5 and tier 6 it gives NOTHING to defense. I don't see the devs adding defensive abilities to Fury with the equivalent to LD if at all nor should it.
So how do you improve on an ED that has no defense and more than likely won't get it. Double down on the offense.

T5: Devastating Blow (+1 Critical Multiplier on 19-20 with Melee weapons) While fighting in Two Handed Fighting style gain +1 primal bonus to Critical Multiplier (1 Rank, 1AP)
T5: Strong Swings: +10 Melee Power. While fighting in Two Handed Fighting style, this is instead +25 and gain +x% Combat Style bonus to attack speed. ( Thinking 10%)(1 Rank, 1AP)

[Silverleafeon]

Would like to see Tsunami have its cost reduced slightly and no longer remove earthquake spells.

Nice to see spirits and similar charge types such as for raining arrows and shadow charges being removed from the game.
It is a good step forward.

[Vooduspyce]

Would be nice if Shiradi or Primal Avatar had an Evocation/Conjuration focus selector for caster druids or something that at least boosted Evocation in perhaps the innates. Divine sphere has spell dc's with Transcendental Magic, Arcane sphere has Magister School Specialist and Draconic Precise Casting. Show some love for caster druids please.

[Vooduspyce]

Primal Avatar Insidious Spores should be scaled with spell power and probably changed to acid damage. Let's make this useful.

[Steelstar]

Primal Avatar Insidious Spores should be scaled with spell power and probably changed to acid damage. Let's make this useful.

You say that like there's no way to amplify Poison Spell Pow-

Oh, right. (glances at top-secret internal notes)

Well, not yet, anyway.

[Aelonwy]

You say that like there's no way to amplify Poison Spell Pow-

Oh, right. (glances at top-secret internal notes)

Well, not yet, anyway.

I'm really glad to see you guys are still reading these threads; there's been so little dev interaction in them.