2019 ED Pass: Arcane Sphere

[thunir]

So Fatesinger is losing the Jump+ImmunityToSlipperySurfaces buff, losing Eschew as an automatic low core (instead a Tier 5), and having the Haggle/Perform buff cut in half?

So, I don't use Fatesinger a ton now, but you're taking away most of the few things I actually do like about it in the present form. If you want to truly make it completely useless to me, remove the Tier 3 Spell Pen twist, too.

At least the "Epic Moment", which currently specifically doesn't work exactly when you'd most want it to work, versus bosses, is getting fixed. That's something, I guess, though not enough to make me use Fatesinger.

Harmonic Resonance, is picking up twice as much sonic debuff, and it is also on spell cast now. It is also getting an A/C debuff to the tune of -20 AC. So Ill pay 1 AP for eschew if I want it. Bards hardly use components as it is. Most bard spell are verbal.

Haggle and perform is lost but your picking up +6 to all skills in the second cord.

[SirValentine]

Harmonic Resonance, is picking up twice as much sonic debuff, and it is also on spell cast now. It is also getting an A/C debuff to the tune of -20 AC. So Ill pay 1 AP for eschew if I want it. Bards hardly use components as it is. Most bard spell are verbal.

Two points:
1. Yes, as you point out, it's getting "stuff". It's just stuff that's uninteresting or useless to me. You re-listing what the devs already listed doesn't do any good.
2. You seem to think that only whether one class, Bard, gets use out of something is relevant. Epic Destinies are not specific to a single class, and are supposed to support a variety of classes and builds. (2b. You seem to think that however you play a Bard, somehow not needing components or caring about 6 extra inventory spaces, is the only way to do it.)

Haggle and perform is lost but your picking up +6 to all skills in the second cord.

I thought it said +3 to skills, not +6. If it's actually +6, I withdraw the part of my comment about Haggle & Perform.

[erethizon]

I find myself being persuaded by the arguments against big DC increases for a single ED; and more specifically, I like the idea of removing must-have choices and making other destinies appealing, and making all destinies fun.

I also very much like the change, made ages ago, that added different levels of Melee Power to all different cores.

So here's my revised take:

• every destiny gets +1 DC for every two cores (yes, every destiny, even Legendary Dreadnaught)
• magister gets +1 DC every other core as well (for +6 in total)
• magister loses the school-specifc bonus at T2, to be replaced by a universal spell-power boost (50/100/150)
• arcane spellsurge goes to 120 second cooldown (ie. not usable EVERY encounter), but also adds a 50% reduction in spell cooldowns, and lasts 30 seconds.
• all dependencies between items in magister & draconic tree items to be removed
• draconic gain +1 evo/conj every other core (for +3 all, and a further +3 evo/conj)
• fatesinger gain evo/ench every other core (for +3 all, and a further +3 evo/ench)
• all stat increases in main trees are removed and replaced by +1 ANY stat in each core. This is good for all classes.

In the same way Melee power is granted, so is spell power. Note that most casters will have 500-100 spell power at cap, whereas melees (I guess) have nearer 200. So SP grants should be 3-5 times higher to provide the same boost.

Draconic: +10 per core
Magister: +20 per core
Fatesinger: +30 per core
Exalted Angel: +10 per core
Shiradi: +10 per core
Div. Crus: +20 per core
Everyone else: +30 per core

Not sure about 10/20/30; 15/30/45 and 20/40/60 also seem reasonable. eg. consider Shadowdancer: +10 melee power per core. +60 in total. That's an increase of 30% for someone starting with 180 melee power. Going the same way with spell power, would be to add 50 per core for a semi-decent caster on an off-destiny; but this is offset by adding DCs to every second core, so 10/20/30 may be about right.

I've been wanting to make a suggestion like this too. Specifically, there is no need to have stat bonuses in any of the ED trees. Stat bonuses should simply be in the cores of every ED. In fact, given how much stat inflation has occurred since ED's were introduced, if you made it so that every core in every ED gave +1 to every stat (meaning no matter what destiny you played in you got +6 to each and every one of the 6 stats), it still wouldn't be overpowered. +6 to a stat (or even to every stat) is not the huge amount of power it was 10 years ago. If stat bonuses were simply in the cores we wouldn't have to waste any of our points in our ED trees buying stats. Being able to spend all 24 points on the fun stuff, instead of having to waste half of them on stat bonuses, would make all of the ED's way more fun to play.

The game has changed a lot in the last decade. With past lives and extremely powerful gear people have made some very powerful characters these days. In order to keep new players and first life alts from being too weak there should be more power in the ED's (and probably in the class trees as well). When too much power is located in the gear and past lives it makes newer characters feel like half (or less) of an older character. A higher percentage of the total power should be available from the class and epic destiny trees so that newer characters are not so weak.


A simple way to balance this would be to have two options. For example, instead of a place to put points that gives +3/+6/+9 PRR when you spend 1/2/3 points on it, it instead says, "adds +3/6/9 PRR or sets your PRR to 100/103/106, whichever is higher. This would allow characters that are way behind the curve to catch up somewhat while still allowing the powerhouses of today to use these upgrades as normal. It would be a quick and easy way to set a minimum amount of power for things likes PRR, MRR, saving throws, spell power, melee power, doublestrike, doubleshot, DC's of various spells and skills, etc.. It is far easier to balance the game when you elevate the minimum amount of power that each character has to be closer to maximum currently achievable.


The extremely powerful players will still outshine everyone else, but it won't be such a night and day difference.

[Whisper1]

I apologise for comment that Draconic ED is too weak that gave me infraction from Kordovan. Sorry all. I just see how Magister is buffed, but Draconic is not buffed in meaningful way because DC >>> any other buff by much. You cant do good damage if you cant reach stats to pass DC checks - speaking about blasting spells! Unless you only use DOT/Ray spells but they are single-target and damage is average. Sorry again for my opinion.

[thunir]

I thought it said +3 to skills, not +6. If it's actually +6, I withdraw the part of my comment about Haggle & Perform.

Sorry, that’s the way I read it. I could be wrong.

[Montegue]

Honestly, I welcome the +11-15 DC Magister will bring. Tired of my 100+ DCs getting laughed off by goblins.

[pjw]

I think 3000 DPS can be surpassed but it would empty the mana bar in a few encounters...

Sadly, it's worse than that: with a good rotation (read: automated on my keyboard), I could probably get a little over 4k DPS. But this is actually pretty abysmal because it will only take down a 250k HP red-name if:

- I start with a full SP bar (lol)
- the red-name has no immunities (lol)
- the red-name makes no saves (lol)
- I don't need any SP for haling or dealing with trash (lol)

SO, we are actually short of DPS (it's boring waiting 1-2 min to kill something) and DPSP (we will run out of SP anyway).

The reality of my (any?) wizard in epic-elite is he/she has little or no hope of arriving at most red-names and killing them. And don't get me started on EK in epic-elite. It's victim of the same DPS horror that wizards are subject to.

[Aelonwy]

I find myself being persuaded by the arguments against big DC increases for a single ED; and more specifically, I like the idea of removing must-have choices and making other destinies appealing, and making all destinies fun.

I also very much like the change, made ages ago, that added different levels of Melee Power to all different cores.

So here's my revised take:

• every destiny gets +1 DC for every two cores (yes, every destiny, even Legendary Dreadnaught)
• magister gets +1 DC every other core as well (for +6 in total)
• magister loses the school-specifc bonus at T2, to be replaced by a universal spell-power boost (50/100/150)
• arcane spellsurge goes to 120 second cooldown (ie. not usable EVERY encounter), but also adds a 50% reduction in spell cooldowns, and lasts 30 seconds.
• all dependencies between items in magister & draconic tree items to be removed
• draconic gain +1 evo/conj every other core (for +3 all, and a further +3 evo/conj)
• fatesinger gain evo/ench every other core (for +3 all, and a further +3 evo/ench)
• all stat increases in main trees are removed and replaced by +1 ANY stat in each core. This is good for all classes.

In the same way Melee power is granted, so is spell power. Note that most casters will have 500-100 spell power at cap, whereas melees (I guess) have nearer 200. So SP grants should be 3-5 times higher to provide the same boost.

Draconic: +10 per core
Magister: +20 per core
Fatesinger: +30 per core
Exalted Angel: +10 per core
Shiradi: +10 per core
Div. Crus: +20 per core
Everyone else: +30 per core

Not sure about 10/20/30; 15/30/45 and 20/40/60 also seem reasonable. eg. consider Shadowdancer: +10 melee power per core. +60 in total. That's an increase of 30% for someone starting with 180 melee power. Going the same way with spell power, would be to add 50 per core for a semi-decent caster on an off-destiny; but this is offset by adding DCs to every second core, so 10/20/30 may be about right.

A lot of good ideas here.

[Kithyx]

Suggestion:
Fatesinger +1 evo/enchant dc per core.

Magister +1 all dcs EXCEPT enchant per core.

Draconic +1 evo dcs per core.

[reywas]

+1 DCs per core is great (and should remain). But it also should get interesting abilities for cores. DI and Magister are the only two that just get some some meh passive. Exalted Angel and Crusaders get other abilities along with it.

If I were to redesign these, I would give +3 DCs to every casting ED (Maybe limited to certain schools Enchant and Illusion for Fate Singer, Conj and Evocation for Draconic, Evocation Transmutation and Conjuration for Primal Avatar) and +6 to magister to all schools, move the Tempest and some other magister abilities to cores (Sigils maybe, or abilities that add things to metamagics, like chance for knockdown on maximize, reducing enemy spell pen for Heightened spells). Similar with Draconic Incarnation with the Energy ____ for cores (granting every type so you can change it on the fly, share cooldown). Right now, it is strange to me that they, out of all the trees, are the only two that only get something actually interesting for their last core.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Please make it so that Nullmagic strike can proc from melee attacks too, at least while a runearm is equipped or spellsword is being used.

/signed, having it proc from melee attacks would be pretty sweet & open it up as having interesting use for more builds

[ElweSulk]

This was fixed with U41

Great!

Please consider my other changes to "Turn of the Tide" also (i.e.: longer duration + shorter cooldown + scaling of damage based on sonic/melee power)

[Lamassut]

You have eliminated requirements of feats (cleave, power attack) in LD, do the same for casters. Eliminate the spell focus and spell penetration requirements please. Many casters are feat starved, and taking these two feats plus the metamagic ones supposes an unnecessary stress, not to say that it prevents to take past life feats (complecionist, PL wiz, PL bard)ç

You eliminated the requirement of spell penetration in exalted angel long ago, but the arcane sphere has never been touched, and you are forgetting to update this

[PublicEnemy]

Since Bards also support DEX and INT builds via Swashbuckler Different Tack, can we get 4 options, STR, DEX, INT, or CHA, for Fatesinger ability scores?

Dont forget this please, if you currently want to invest in stats as well, Melee INT have only really one option : Shadowdancer, but still none in the arcane sphere...would be great to have one ED with caster level for wiz/sorc AND Melee power.

Would be great to have atleast ONE melee capable/related ED in each sphere...

And I havn't noticed but maybe add BAB = char level somewhere in the fatesinger tree pretty please? (as an EK I don't need it but asking for others)

Also, any neg-amp possible somewhere in the Eds? (think I saw it is already the case in the new Fatesinger tree, is that right?)

Oh and ability for people to use CHA to hit/dmg, (maybe core 6 or tier 4-5 if you really don't want it to be twistable).

[Fivetigers33]

Great!

Please consider my other changes to "Turn of the Tide" also (i.e.: longer duration + shorter cooldown + scaling of damage based on sonic/melee power)

What is the proposed duration?

Also, what is the current duration?

[PsychoBlonde]

I would very much appreciate it if you'd make Energy Sheath, Go Out With a Bang, and Energy Burst grant all 4 elemental versions but share a timer, that way you could use whichever one was the best without having to reset your tree.

Or, if that's too much, just Energy Sheath.

[Cetus]

I still don't like the Go Out With a Bang functionality. Can you guys maybe just auto-trigger it when you fall below 50% (like Arcane Barrier from EK), and give it just a large AoE range?

Also - I'm still of the opinion that Draconic Incarnation needs some Evo DC love.

[Airmaiden]

So, after reading through these posts, I think some of the people replying to this thread actually play casters, but not all, as I have LOL'd at a lot of these posters.

Things I agree with:

Magister.

Too many points to have to spend in this tree ( Please make Specialist, Augmentation, familiarity and Master less points per ). This would give people a chance to take other abilities in this tree.

The Cores giving +1DC per is nice (but what this does is help the new DC casters/ players with little to no past lives). This is not necessary with PL's and well geared DC players. I play a 18 wiz/ 2 monk and my PK DC's are 127 and my Necro DC's are 114 with my holds being 108. I do not even have the Wizard capstone (which is a joke anyways).
But I am for this if it help newer players.



If you want my opinion on what wizards need, it would be some way to heal themselves, I run in EA for that very reason and will continue to do so purely to survive and to throw out the odd mass heal or divine wrath.


Draconic

5% Spell Crit damage for each core is very nice (30% more damage is great considering you will be critting 100% of the time) Most sorcs will have 100%+ Spell Crit chance and 95% Spell Crit damage for their main element.



If you want my opinion on what would help Sorcs……...and all Caster types, it would be metamagic feat spell point cost reductions.



Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

[janave]

Draconic can only compete with EA or Magister after the changes if 3 elements are in:

Sorcerer Point of View:

1) temporary hitpoints enough to survive 1 extra hit taken on any difficulty level
2) leap of faith copy on a short cooldown ( this and cc spells are pretty much the primary defense, as the class inherently offers very little, some champs are immune to common cc)
3) significant amount of MRR debuff on monsters, possibly scaled by epic level

But even if all 3 are met, my guess is just better off rolling a Wizard or Warlock in Magister and necro focus all the way up to r10 - which is 100% inline with the current meta. Necro focus is objectively grossly overpowered in higher reaper tiers, so not sure if lining up damage outputs is best.



4) (bonus) some cooldown reduction on level 9 elemental spells for Sorcerers (especially iceberg and thunderstroke) to match Finger of Death cooldown. Right now it takes more time and spell points clean low reflex mobs with the level 9 nukes than with level6 FoD or CoD.

FoD level 6 / 6s / ~56sp
Iceberg level 9 / 9s / ~75sp

FoD ~ kill target at 100% hps
Iceberg ~ take roughly 10-20% (elemental type) damage....

I know r10 is not supposed to be the measurement, but it is part of the game with progression and rewards, so it makes good sense to optimize for it.

[Cetus]

Draconic can only compete with EA or Magister after the changes if 3 elements are in:

Sorcerer Point of View:

1) temporary hitpoints enough to survive 1 extra hit taken on any difficulty level
2) leap of faith copy on a short cooldown ( this and cc spells are pretty much the primary defense, as the class inherently offers very little, some champs are immune to common cc)
3) significant amount of MRR debuff on monsters, possibly scaled by epic level

But even if all 3 are met, my guess is just better off rolling a Wizard or Warlock in Magister and necro focus all the way up to r10 - which is 100% inline with the current meta. Necro focus is objectively grossly overpowered in higher reaper tiers, so not sure if lining up damage outputs is best.



4) (bonus) some cooldown reduction on level 9 elemental spells for Sorcerers (especially iceberg and thunderstroke) to match Finger of Death cooldown. Right now it takes more time and spell points clean low reflex mobs with the level 9 nukes than with level6 FoD or CoD.

FoD level 6 / 6s / ~56sp
Iceberg level 9 / 9s / ~75sp

FoD ~ kill target at 100% hps
Iceberg ~ take roughly 10-20% (elemental type) damage....

I know r10 is not supposed to be the measurement, but it is part of the game with progression and rewards, so it makes good sense to optimize for it.

Well, the difference is that instakills and CC are all-or-nothing events. You can't just make a target "a little dead" or "a little CC'ed" with current spells.

I think the more practical solution would be to just cut the costs of DPS spells to compensate for this. It's too expensive to nuke, comparatively.