2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[cru121]

· Intelligence based DPS ranged types. LD and Shiradi don’t have Intelligence Stats on those ED, can try to supply with gear, but is just not the same.
· O most forgot: EK Wizards… those rare melee ones. Don’t have Intelligence Stats in melee ED

shadowdancer.

[Elfishski]

This is a comparison of the exclusive things in the two destinies because of Twists the exclusive things in a destiny are the most important and the once that dictate how good the destiny is.

Dreadnought	Shadowdancer	"Winner"
+88 Melee Power	+60 Melee Power	Wash or Dreadnought (do to annoying Blitz mechanics)
+82 Ranged Power	+24 Ranged Power	Dreadnought
+5 Damage (Advancing Blows)	+3d6 Sneak Attack (Core 1-3)	Shadowdancer
+1[w] & 15% Helpless Damage (Combat Brute)	+3d6 Sneak Attack, Shadow Mastery, +3% DS with Light Weapons	Wash
+1 Crit Multiplier 19-20	+1 Crit Multiplier 19-20	Wash
Action Hero	Dark Imbuement + Shadow Training	Dreadnought
+60 HP	+3% Dodge & -20% Threat	Wash or Shadowdancer (threat reduction is getting important)
+30 PRR or 50% Dodge	Shadow Form	Wash or Dreadnought (do to due to Light Vulnerability)
Pulverizer or Headman's Chop	Shadow Manipulation, Executioner's Strike/Shot, or Consume	Meh, Too Different
Unmoveable	Sealed Soul	Shadowdancer
Unstoppable & Thick Skinned	Evasion	Wash

I think this is a good illustration of the way we seem to be increasingly moving toward a game where everything is X test kobold DPS and Y prr/mrr and a little flavour fluff that's kind of irrelevant to gameplay because the raw character power numbers are so much bigger.

If there were more rows with a "too different to compare" I think we'd be in a better place for fun build choices. If there's a lot more melee power in LD than SD, the solution shouldn't be "add the same melee power to SD", it should be "enhance a unique SD thing to make that more attractive".

[Grailhawk]

I think this is a good illustration of the way we seem to be increasingly moving toward a game where everything is X test kobold DPS and Y prr/mrr and a little flavour fluff that's kind of irrelevant to gameplay because the raw character power numbers are so much bigger.

If there were more rows with a "too different to compare" I think we'd be in a better place for fun build choices. If there's a lot more melee power in LD than SD, the solution shouldn't be "add the same melee power to SD", it should be "enhance a unique SD thing to make that more attractive".

Since you're using my work and are quoting me directly, otherwise I would have stayed quite.

IMO every time someone states the opinion you just did its a way of saying I want thing out of balance so that my favorite thing can stay the best. That may or may not be what you are doing ...

Unique ideas are rare and usually very valuable.

30 PRR vs 25% incorporeal play and feel very different in game even if one can be subjectively better to more people, same goes for +60 HP vs 3% dodge and -20% thread reduction, Action Hero vs Dark Imbuement + Shadow Training, Unmoveable vs Sealed Soul, and Unstoppable & Thick Skinned vs Evasion.

Beyond the fist 3 or 4 things in that table they all play and feel different in game while doing same thing making your character better.

[nokowi]

I read the first 13 pages and hadn't seen any responses to Shadowdancer, other than Lynnabel played it and it was great, needing no more change. Sorry for the skepticism after we heard the dev response that stealth was great as SSG proceeded to go after the playstyle. I hope there is a bit more truthfulness/reality in this threads response, as telling us something is great and then non-supported seem a tad bit contradictory, especially without any changes between these statements.

If someone could summarize the dev responses to player requests for Shadowdancer, I would really appreciate it.

Making assassin a fighter with an occasional assassinate instead of a fun play style has been my concern for some time now. People can always choose a purely dps melee if that is all they want to do.

Assassinate DC vs caster DC is an inside dev joke, right? Have devs ever stated any basis for the difference?

[Elfishski]

IMO every time someone states the opinion you just did its a way of saying I want thing out of balance so that my favorite thing can stay the best. That may or may not be what you are doing ...

Unique ideas are rare and usually very valuable.

30 PRR vs 25% incorporeal play and feel very different in game even if one can be subjectively better to more people, same goes for +60 HP vs 3% dodge and -20% thread reduction, Action Hero vs Dark Imbuement + Shadow Training, Unmoveable vs Sealed Soul, and Unstoppable & Thick Skinned vs Evasion.

Beyond the fist 3 or 4 things in that table they all play and feel different in game while doing same thing making your character better.

Not at all on the first point - I just want to play different builds and have them all feel different. E.g. more variety would be added in the game by taking PRR away from Blitz so that while LD may remain the best DPS if you can stay alive there's nothing helping you to stay alive, rather than adding melee power to SD, even if either of those changes would achieve the same balance goal of making the decision between destinies less obvious.

However, you are quite right that while things are listed as a 'wash' there are still significant stylistic differences between Shadowdancer and LD. We're not nearly at the point where everything is the same with a different colour graphics effect, just that balance changes seem to be taking small steps in that direction.

[janave]

Assassinate DC vs caster DC is an inside dev joke, right? Have devs ever stated any basis for the difference?

A) Assassinate to match Cooldown to Finger of Death (Wizard), Same DC potential
B) Raise the Cooldown on Finger of Death (Wiz, and Sorc too) above assasinate, let them have a small edge on DC

A or B are both more balanced than what we have now.

[Innokentiy]

Please devs look at this topic with suggestions about BAB.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6219930

[nokowi]

A) Assassinate to match Cooldown to Finger of Death (Wizard), Same DC potential
B) Raise the Cooldown on Finger of Death (Wiz, and Sorc too) above assasinate, let them have a small edge on DC

A or B are both more balanced than what we have now.

For a minute there I thought devs had actually responded to input about Shadowdancer, but I believe these are your suggestions???


A great way to balance the power of assassinate would be to have it require tactics to use, like requiring you to be in stealth, and making staying and moving in and out of stealth a tactical and challenging option. If only we had an example of such a system... I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but taking away tactical play is a way to dumb down DDO in the name of monetization. Players should be rewarded for using tactics, and these tactics should be opposed to make build choices important. Simply ignoring player abilities is flat out terrible design, and it shows a lack of effort or thought.


Someone at SSG is going to have to start learning about unique play styles and what a tactical option is. Their design creates almost zero competing play decisions, and they have gone after play decisions for some time now.

People charging and using EiN are on the chopping block now. Removing the charging and putting it on a timer, dramatically nerfing it's core ability, while giving access to it to everyone. More vanilla, less unique play styles.

[Deivonte]

I know I'm throwing my opinion in the dumpster fire, but if the big AoE isn't an option, could it made more precise so we can guarantee that the targets we want get affected. Like make EiN a 4 charge ability with one charge coming back every 45 secs or so. Or maybe on activation, give the player 5-10 secs to choose enemies.

[DYWYPI]

Noko, there has been a several suggestions regarding changes to Shadowdancer Epic Destinies abilities from the player base.

[...] If someone could summarize the dev responses to player requests for Shadowdancer, I would really appreciate it. ...

I believe Steelstar answered about one question with regards to feedback specifically relating to Shadowdancer, [Post #84]. Essentially he said; he wants to modify and boost: Dark Imbuement.

However, Lynnabel answered a couple covering Shadowdancer, for example: [Post #62] and [Post #155]. Basically she likes the proposed damage output and is glad the 'Shadow Charge' spaghetti is been removed. Most of her other answers were more generic regarding 'Martial Sphere' or 'Grandmaster of Flowers' concerns.

You've likely read their responses already so haven't missed much with regards to [Team DDO] responses to questions, or player ideas about Shadowdancer, etc.

It sounds a little like damage output is how DDO Team wants to market Shadowdancer rather than unique play style diversity or focus more upon Rogue covertness. The ironic aspect with regards to the Rogue Assassin is Assassinate doesn't require Sneak attack.

Currently the SSG stock answer to the SD abilities seems to be; we'll maybe add more Sneak attack damage. Perhaps they are making the changes to mostly benefit Rogue Mechanics or multiclass, etc.

[clagor]

I also find the change of Combat Brute very harsh from 50% to 15%. Make it to 30% only please.
And I was always thinking why a ED in material sphere has only 3MP per core compared to the others having 10MP.

To bring it again on the same level we should raise the core MP (6 to 10) again and reduce the +7MP Blitz (+3 to +5).

Also we have a choice of +30PRR or 50% dodge while the last is not stacking!
Make this 30% dodge and stacking and maybe an additional choice of +30AC?

If Action Hero is really the Problem, why not changing the 33% to only 25% to reduce cooldown times of action boosts?

Power Attack should be something comparable to Precision, so that not anyone go for Precision only for endgame.

[0ldschool]

And I was always thinking why a ED in material sphere has only 3MP per core compared to the others having 10MP.

You're right, it doesn't make much sense. As a newb, I can only assume that this is a result of the silliness that Blitz created. I'm sure a vet will weigh in soon enough, but it seems quite likely that the other EDs were given big boosts to MP after the fact, once they realized what they had created with Blitz.

To bring it again on the same level we should raise the core MP (6 to 10) again and reduce the +7MP Blitz (+3 to +5).

This would only make LD even more attractive as the increased MP in Blitz would be shifted to full-time increased MP in LD. It's not going to accomplish the dev goal of encouraging us to use other EDs.

[nokowi]

Noko, there has been a several suggestions regarding changes to Shadowdancer Epic Destinies abilities from the player base.



I believe Steelstar answered about one question with regards to feedback specifically relating to Shadowdancer, [Post #84]. Essentially he said; he wants to modify and boost: Dark Imbuement.

However, Lynnabel answered a couple covering Shadowdancer, for example: [Post #62] and [Post #155]. Basically she likes the proposed damage output and is glad the 'Shadow Charge' spaghetti is been removed. Most of her other answers were more generic regarding 'Martial Sphere' or 'Grandmaster of Flowers' concerns.

You've likely read their responses already so haven't missed much with regards to [Team DDO] responses to questions, or player ideas about Shadowdancer, etc.

It sounds a little like damage output is how DDO Team wants to market Shadowdancer rather than unique play style diversity or focus more upon Rogue covertness. The ironic aspect with regards to the Rogue Assassin is Assassinate doesn't require Sneak attack.

Currently the SSG stock answer to the SD abilities seems to be; we'll maybe add more Sneak attack damage. Perhaps they are making the changes to mostly benefit Rogue Mechanics or multiclass, etc.

Thank you.

Steel just posted that they constantly talk about diversity of play styles, but it's pretty clear that just means equal dps for all. The fact that they are ruining EiN builds probably doesn't occur to them.

So we are left with far less DC than casters, no care about tactical movement, and yet again even more DPS.


I don't know anyone that ever had trouble building or keeping shadow charges while in Shadowdancer, so reading that this was a big problem and that no charges with timer is some benefit reads to me as people that haven't or don't know how to play. Making any timer longer because of this also shows lack of understanding, as the timer was always the limitation.

It would have been nice to hear dev responses to those that have played Shadowdancer extensively and took the time to post, but that is probably asking too much.

[guzzlr]

Please devs look at this topic with suggestions about BAB.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6219930

I was bout to post the same thing, but you beat me to it.

Please fix this. It is silly. Melees should have better or at least the same full BaB as a tensered (anybody). Make every epic level give a full BaB at the very least. (easiest "fix?")

Better idea would be to give melees a BaB every epic level and leave the other levels as is at +5.

[erethizon]

Come up with a solution that allows monks to help regain control of the combat (an "oh shoot" button), but that doesn't lend itself to gathering up piles of baddies and hitting the button once or twice per quest. Bards do this by fascinating them (does this cause insane server lag?). Is this a tool that could be used by monks (no, I am not saying monks get Fascinate, but can you leverage the system that bards use to get a similar result for monks). What can you do to continue to give monks that chance to save the day? What about white dotting the bad guys back to their starting location? Does this cause insane server lag (if so, we have another set of major problems to deal with ). White dotting them back does seem like a very Everything is Nothing ability...

If this can be done without causing the lag problem then this sounds like a great solution. It doesn't kill anything but banishes everything (or at least a given number of targets that is ideally more than 4) back to their starting positions.

[erethizon]

This is why I am completely opposed to the LD nerf.

Casters are already stupid powerful. They have 0 need for the power creep being given to them.

If the devs are going to make stupid power creep like that into the game, then LD shouldn’t be nerfed at all, blitz should be increased to 12 MP per stack, and any other melee ED should be buffed to 20 per core.

The devs can’t go around saying; casters using EA need to use the real DC caster tree, Magistar. But instead of keeping the power level the same, we are simply going to make Magistar stupid levels of power to entice them over. But MELEE who gravitate towards one ED are bad and their decision needs to be punished by needing their BiS ED nerfed to get them to go towards others.

If the caster changes were done the same way as the melee changes, EA would have its +3 DCs from the core removed and Magistar would be getting 0 DC increase.

Screw casters, here’s a video of me feeding a +2 Reaper stat INT helm;



Nerf casters.

The problem is that casting still uses the D20 when using DC's. You have people with DC's of 130 and other players of the same level with DC's of 60. You've posted many times on these ED threads that the Magister change is too much, but it really isn't. There are countless players out there that badly need a way to get their DC's up to the point of actually being useable. Playing a wizard that lands 5% of his DC spells is a lesson in frustration and the problem with all the equipment stat inflation is that people lacking the perfect equipment can't play the game. The Magister change is most welcome. People that need DC to be able to successfully cast can use this destiny to finally have a chance to play and people that already land everything because they have incredibly high DC's can play in a different destiny that offers things other than DC's because these players don't have need of any additional DC.

[Montegue]

The problem is that casting still uses the D20 when using DC's. You have people with DC's of 130 and other players of the same level with DC's of 60. You've posted many times on these ED threads that the Magister change is too much, but it really isn't. There are countless players out there that badly need a way to get their DC's up to the point of actually being useable. Playing a wizard that lands 5% of his DC spells is a lesson in frustration and the problem with all the equipment stat inflation is that people lacking the perfect equipment can't play the game. The Magister change is most welcome. People that need DC to be able to successfully cast can use this destiny to finally have a chance to play and people that already land everything because they have incredibly high DC's can play in a different destiny that offers things other than DC's because these players don't have need of any additional DC.

I wanna make a video of how many mobs blow off my 100+ DC spells on a regular basis. More or less *anything* with a bow in it's hand on EE or better. You feel SUPER POWERFUL when a goblin archer is like "Nah, level 30 archwizard with 102 Illusion DC - you can't scare me to death, lulz. Here's a 300 point crit from my short bow". #justcastacidwell

[erethizon]

I wanna make a video of how many mobs blow off my 100+ DC spells on a regular basis. More or less *anything* with a bow in it's hand on EE or better. You feel SUPER POWERFUL when a goblin archer is like "Nah, level 30 archwizard with 102 Illusion DC - you can't scare me to death, lulz. Here's a 300 point crit from my short bow". #justcastacidwell

Yes, it is a very real issue. I finally commented because he has posted a half-dozen times now that we need less DC in Magister when what he is really saying is, "1% of casters are already too strong so let's make sure casters are unplayable for the bottom 90% of casters."

We need a lot more power to come directly from classes and ED's. A fighter is only as good as his gear, but a caster should be a powerhouse even when completely naked. I'm tired of hearing, "Sorry, you would be a powerful wizard but your mommy didn't buy you a fancy enough robe for wizard school." Casters should not be weak just because they didn't farm fancy enough equipment.

Frankly, we are at a point where casting DC needs to go the way of AC. For the longest time every character I made had a 5% chance of being missed due to AC because there were monks with 80 AC that could avoid being hit at all. A 20-point spread either meant the best players were hit only 5% of the time or 90% of the players were hit 95% of the time. The change to AC was great and made it so that everyone could have some defense from AC and no one had perfect defense from AC (or as perfect as it can get given the critical fail rules).

It's time for DC casting to go the same way but with higher minimums. I would say even a naked wizard should land 50% of his DC spells, so the lower limit should be 50% and having 150 DC might give you high 80's perhaps? I'm not sure what the upper limit should be (I don't really have a problem with 95% honestly), but the lower limit needs to be closer to 50%. People that don't gear for DC (or gear and fail) should still be able to land half their spells.

[Spoondoggy]

While I am not as incensed over the changes to EIN as some folks here I could see a compromise of maybe 6 targets at a 2 minute cooldown as an option.

I was a little disheartend to see the slight boost to MRR cap taken out of the serenity choice that we saw in the PC first look but can deal with that.

The one takeaway I am not agreeing with is the nerf to dance with flowers. I like the suggestions in here of if you are centered you get a bigger boost to the (W) and I think that would be an acceptable option. The reason being with all the little minor nerfs done with the monk in the past, while not a major issue at the time, has now added up to a bit much imo.

[Khalibano]

Hi devs,

Thank you so much for all the hard work sorting out EDs. Very glad to see many abilities being fixed to start working and others to work better. I am glad LD is being somewhat nerfed tbh, and that changes are being made to all EDs to balance things out a bit more. The mentality in game that melees play LD only, casters EA only, archers Fury only and tanks US only is soooo boring, definitely needs refreshing: otherwise why have so many EDs? More options sounds great!

I play 3 monks, and understand that changes are needed to EIN. The GMoF destiny looks stronger anyway, and I look forward to testing out the changes. Hopefully, as you mentioned, further tweaks can be made if and when needed after it goes live and gets play tested some more.

One suggestion ref Shadowdancer: could the abilities that have a DC include the option for WIS, as well as INT and DEX in their calculation? This should benefit Nija spy monks, who have quite a bit of sneak attack in their class tree. Ranger deepwood stalkers also benefit from sneak attack, but can already do well here being DEX based. Adding WIS could potentially make this tree an interesting option for some falconry builds too.

Great job devs, really looking forward to the changes