2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[Paisheng]

I like that metaphor a lot, actually.

I guess, following that line of thinking... are there times when you don't want steak? What about if it's a late night, you're out with your friends, it's been a long day, and all you want, more than anything... is pizza. Cheesy, greasy, open at 2am, plastic plates, a cold glass of free water, the best pizza of your life. It's going to burn your tongue, but it doesn't matter, you just really want some greasy pizza and you want pizza right now.

Are you really going to go to the best steakhouse in town for pizza?

If the only place in town is a steakhouse, and all you want is pizza, do you really want to pay steakhouse price?

The steakhouse isn't even open at 2AM. They probably put kale on the pizza, too. It's too pretentious, too expensive, you don't want to be boxed into a high end steakhouse with your friends, you just want to crowd around a semi-clean table and yell about anime.

Steak, every night, every time you go out into epics, and there's just that one steakhouse. And sure, their steak is great, everyone loves it, but every night? Every single night?

Wouldn't you rather get to choose?

Fortunately I just ate dinner, so I can handle this discussion without a run to the kitchen. I think.

When living at the dorms at the University of Kansas several on our floor might be up studying til midnight. That's when we went on a "Joe's Run." Joe's Donuts were open 24/7 and they were the greasiest donuts this side of Kobold cooking. I would eat a donut or two at midnight, and I kid you not, I would wake up in the morning with literal beads of grease on my forehead.

So I am with you. I am not going to that steak house for kale pizza. I am going to go to Joe's Donuts for pizza because I already trust his ability to deep-fry a pizza.

Ummm....getting back to our shared analogy.....*hang on I need something from the kitchen*........If I get bored with GMOF food, I will go to a whole other restaurant ED for their specialty. I live in a part of the city where we have authentic ethnic Thai, Chinese, and Hispanic foods. I know which one to go to for whatever my cravings are. I don't expect that Spanish restaurant to have the best Pad Thai. I don't even expect them to have it. In fact if they did I would be worried to try it. So when I change to LD destiny I know I won't be eating the Lotus Petals that night. But I will be eating some excellent carnivore foods.

So to me the EDs should each be a specialty restaurant that specializes with flavors and authenticity that are amazing. I don't want them all to be Applebees with a little of everything just good. Though I suppose you could make a generic universal ED tree(s) for those nights I'm not sure what I want to eat.

Enough said. I've earned dessert.

[J1NG]

Oh, I see what's up. To be super clear, just because we don't respond with "yeah we're doing this now! thanks for the feedback!" doesn't mean we're not considering it I tend to overshare and this is one of the side effects - the absence of me saying yes is not always a no

Except of course, when we have "It's in the next Hotfix/Patch/Update!", and then we don't see it for a good long while because "reasons". You can see why we don't believe that anything is being considered.

As for why I'm not giving any constructive feedback?

Pretty much what HouseAtreides said, I have no idea what reasons for change were, or what you are heading towards. So I'm not going to write pages worth of feedback for nothing. Just like the Devs can't do much about error/bug reports that lack enough information to start somewhere from.

So... Expect more condescending remarks instead from me.

J1NG

[HouseAtreides]

Oh, I see what's up. To be super clear, just because we don't respond with "yeah we're doing this now! thanks for the feedback!" doesn't mean we're not considering it I tend to overshare and this is one of the side effects - the absence of me saying yes is not always a no

That's not at all what I am saying, but cool.

At the very least, you're right about oversharing, there's a lot more discussion of the things we have no hope of changing your mind about than there was back in the day rofl.

[ComicRelief]

So, while not specifically related to the Martial sphere, per se (then again...), since there are changes coming to EDs, how about: 1) Allowing players to choose which SPHERE (as well as ED within the sphere) is their starting ED? And/or 2) Add 'connections' between the Arcane sphere and the Primal sphere and between the Arcane sphere and the Divine sphere? I personally think it sucks to be forced to go through the Martial sphere to get to the other spheres. Forcing me to start in a specific sphere, like Arcane, just because I'm a Wizard seems...wrong to me (No! You must play our way!). And if I really wanted to start in the Primal sphere, starting in the Arcane and then forcing me to go though the Martial to unlock the Primal also sucks.

[MaeveTuohy]

Heh, I suppose turnabout is fair play :P

In a perfect world (or at least my perfect world), the Destinies aren't just more of your base class - they're the extra little spice on top of your 1-20 build. Gmof shouldn't be "the last 25% of your monk build," gmof should be one of several choices to put that last bit of sauce on top of your monk build. Ideally, epics let you go wild with crazy combos and epic abilities without the worry that "ugh, everything I try is either literally broken (looking at you fatesinger) or does negative zero damage" and then you just end up in LD on your monk being sad.

True, but it ought to be better for monks than for other classes. The revamp makes the stuff that is good in it too generic.

[Paisheng]

looking at it acronymically or phonetically - or just BSically:

Everything is nothing = EiN (Einstein, multiverse wooooo coool stuff)

Four is Nothing = Fin (The End (of the cool stuff))

Five is Nothing = fine (as in ok, ill take it, but meh, *grumbles*)

Six is Nothing = Sin (dark monk only)

Seven is Nothing = Sin, again - unless you are a fan of Seinfeld

Eight is Nothing = EiN, again, so ... almost cool, also, we have 4 elemental stances, multiplied by ying and yang makes 8, seems legit


but wait ...

Nine is Nothing ...


we have a winner, NiN NiN

+1 for creativity. Oh if they would indeed make it 8 or 9 mobs.....that would be medicine to bring monk blood pressure down so we could meditate better.

[Lynnabel]

True, but it ought to be better for monks than for other classes.

I mean, should it? We try really hard for the other destinies to not favor a specific class. I guess the other big exception is Fatesinger, which is very Bard themed, but the majority of the Fatesinger changes (removing Bard Songs as the costs for abilities, fixing durations to not rely on bard song duration scaling) were to pull it away from the Bard class.

[Iriale]

Are you all seeing anyone running in SD that does not already have evasion?

artificers. Not all artificers are multiclass and evasion is important for a trapper. Sure, the new artificers tanks do not worry much about the traps and do not need evasion, but the classic trappers appreciate it. Not all of us play the new aberration introduced two updates ago xD

and do not forget that the artifices are still orphans of their own ED.

[pjstechie]

In any case, to bring this full circle, if EiN isn't cool enough, we can make it cooler. There's a lot of time to push things around and your preview feedback is pretty important for that. Right now, I'm pretty confident in my assessment that very few people currently enjoy GMoF (I'm pretty sure some people begrudgingly struggle through it) and the changes listed will drastically help that. We're keeping a close eye on feedback, so definitely make sure to post constructive criticism if you've got it

Here's a thought regarding EiN: is there a world where it maybe gets a secondary effect that is advantageous versus a boss? The thinking here is that its losing a fair bit of power in terms of clearing a room (and performance reasons are a valid concern) so what if it picks up some extra power in a different way.

As it stands now blitz is a big boost to dps, and given what EiN already does, I'm not saying EiN should get near that kind of an increase, but if we are going to compare the 2, I think having a reason to use EiN besides clearing a pile of mobs would create a tactically more interesting ability.

Some spitball with that: boost to "to hit" and/or damage, a smaller boost but also to allies, a debuff to other monsters in the area (probably backtracks the performance problem), a defensive boost (less interesting), boost to healing amp

[Lynnabel]

and do not forget that the artifices are still orphans of their own ED.

Ideally, each class doesn't actually have "their own ED" - but each playstyle has several to choose from. I worry that the class-restrictive versions of the current EDs are really inhibiting build freedom more than anything. I think the best way forward is to try and make each ED mechanically unique and competitive within the archetype they represent without pinning them to a specific class. That being said, you (the royal you, aka the players) may disagree, and I'm kinda interested in everyone's opinion here.

[Iriale]

In the interest of making all destinies have some usefulness for each character as they slog through 460 epic TRs, your request to have a full pattern stat buy in each tree, thereby making each destiny at least partially useful, has been summarily dismissed already in the ED change discussion. LOL

SSG loves contradictions.

[J1NG]

I mean, should it? We try really hard for the other destinies to not favor a specific class. I guess the other big exception is Fatesinger, which is very Bard themed, but the majority of the Fatesinger changes (removing Bard Songs as the costs for abilities, fixing durations to not rely on bard song duration scaling) were to pull it away from the Bard class.

Did the Devs really though?

I'm still only seeing DC increases in Magister T6. Where's the Melee love? Seriously, my Trapper and my Melee when running this Destiny wants parity with others, and that's clearly not happening here. +60MP, +50% extra to Hit bonus minimum is needed in there clearly. [/sarcasm]

Oh right, it's a DC CASTER Destiny...

Monks are in the rather unfortunate position of being the ONLY class that utilises the Ki bar. This also makes it impossible for ANY Destiny under any of the Devs currently announced proposals to boost anything to do with the Monk in any meaningful manner after Level 20. Because it appears that the Epic Destinys are being made to be generic (in a wide term) and so a specialist class like the Monk will be left to fall through this crack. Especially after being nerfed in their Heroic Class abilities in the first place. A Monk is NOT just dps. It's a tactical unit that needs to rely on Tactics and strategy, something that the current GMoF EiN offers. The new one does not, and neither does any other Destiny. So what you've simply done by this change to EiN, is simply make everyone play more identically to each other. And not more diversely.

With regards to the Fatesinger: Fatesinger doesn't impact on the Bard, as the Bard can cast, can melee, can range, can bard song. Fatesinger in Live, can support any of these. The new proposed Fatesinger doesn't impact the Bard in any of these areas in a negative fashion. But the Monk, has a Ki bar, that apparently has very little use. And being Centered also means very little once you reach Epic according to these new changes. Now the Devs heavily nerf the one ability that required Monks to play to their strengths (patiently charging up EiN and tactically attacking opponents), and replaced it with (moar dps!). And that's why Monk players are annoyed with the changes. More dps can be done already, we pick Live version of GMoF because it's the "Advanced" way to play.

J1NG

[Khurse]

I think part of the problem (and I do realize I'm not a game designer so have no idea how stuff works) is that you're fixing the wrong stuff right now.

I think some of the abilities look cool, and I will be happy to play an effective melee that's not in LD.

But for melee- as far as I can tell, the styles themselves THF/SWF/THF/S&B aren't even close to being equally as effective in combat.
Yes you can have fun with all of them, but I don't see alot of SWF in endgame vs TWF, there are some THF but generally they seem to be looked down on as subpar to TWF builds.

And for a few years now, it seems we've heard you guys say "yep we know, we're working on it" which is cool, and appreciated.

But rather than work on the styles, you're now working on ED's, that use the styles, and players are asking "but how well will this tree work with THF" and you're having to add and change stuff to make it work.

But it's still not fixing the imbalance between the styles themselves.

Wouldn't it be easier to fix the basic styles, make it so they're all useful at endgame, and then improve the ED's?
It just seems like now the answer is going to be 'well if we improve THF glancing blows (for example) it's going to make anyone in "Fury of the Wild" way to powerful.

[Lynnabel]

Monks are in the rather unfortunate position of being the ONLY class that utilises the Ki bar.

I want you to know that when I say I tested a pure handwraps barbarian and went "hey this is actually really good" I was being 100% serious. Gmof gives you Ki and the ability to be centered, too. It's completely feasible to play a handwraps non-monk with the new Gmof. It was really, really fun, actually.

Wouldn't it be easier to fix the basic styles, make it so they're all useful at endgame, and then improve the ED's?

If we spent this time rebalancing other stuff, the EDs would still be a broken mess. To quote Steelstar's signature, "The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet."

[Anuulified]

If you want to give monks and light armor classes more of a reason to play in GMOF, then increase the MRR cap for cloth/light armor in the cores or in a T5/T6 enhancement (something non twistable).

Or make so you can actually evade them and keep as is. Too much magic with no evasion check makes 50 mrr near useless.

[Togwik]

I understand an outcry for balance. That has never passed me by, but taking away everything that makes a monk SPECIAL... is wrong. I've played monk avidly for years. I love it. Not because it's more powerful than anything else but because it's my kind of play style. If the idea here is to take away the good things from monk, and then improve everything else that isn't monk... then explain to me where the balance and fairness comes in? Monk is a class you have to pay for, or play enough to earn the points to buy it... if you take away everything special from the monk... then what is the point in ANYONE paying for it? The damage decrease was painful as this was a core ability of monk, but I made it work. I play monk alot and I don't see other monks too much and when i do they don't seem especially powerful to me. I do well because i've got my past lives, got my gear, and i've put ALOT of work into it because it's complicated. Where is the fairness in this?

[Iriale]

Ideally, each class doesn't actually have "their own ED" - but each playstyle has several to choose from. I worry that the class-restrictive versions of the current EDs are really inhibiting build freedom more than anything. I think the best way forward is to try and make each ED mechanically unique and competitive within the archetype they represent without pinning them to a specific class.

very good in theory, but I still do not have an ED to help me with the crossbow, the int, my spells and the runearm. And this is so because originally there was no ED focused on the artificer, and your changes still did not create EDs that support hybrid characters.

Apparently, to improve my artificer spells (DC, CL, spellpower) I have to be in the arcane sphere, where I will not get ranged power and I will not have any help from my crossbow. Not even fatesinger would help, because it is still not the weapon user ED of the sphere (if it were, it would have int in its selectors, and aid to the combat of both EKs and artificer, but no, it is still the destiny of a bard that does not help almost anything to the other arcane fighters: artificers and EKs) And to improve my crossbow and get evasion for the traps I have to be in the martial sphere, where I get zero help for my spells. And my runearm is not improved anywhere.

What I'm saying, Lynnabel, is that you want the EDs to be generic, but at the moment of truth, they're still specific. If you want generic EDs you have to change many things, and start focusing them from the point of view of generic roles and not of classes. As they are today, fatesinger is still the bard ED. And shadowdancer the rogue ED. And characters with mixed roles, like the artificer, are still sold.

And although you talk about turning EDs into generic ones, you refuse things as basic as expanding the abilities offered by all EDs (today, they should offer the 6) or adding ranged / melee power to more EDs, or changing as the Caster level of the EDs works. And while you do not change things like these, the EDs will not be generic, and people will continue to see them attached to their original conception linked to specific classes

One of the reasons why EKs do not work well in epics is that they have little support for EDs. That is another archetype that has a lot of difficulty in maintaining DCs and competitive weapon damage, because EDs that give DC do not help damage weapons, and EDs that help damage weapons are divorced from the idea of spells. EDs supposedly for hybrids magic-fighters are very focused on the idea of divine fighter (divine crusader-- does not help anything to an int based warrior) or bardic fighter (fatesinger is still pure bard oh yes, it does not even give int ...) As you can see, Lynnabel, the EDs are still linked to the classes for which they were originally designed.

If you really want generic EDs, be brave, and change all those things that are excessively tied to the idea of classes.

Can we know why each ED does not offer the 6 abilities, in a year where each stat can be used for combat? Why this change is a balance problem? If you really want generic EDs, this is the first change you should make. That, or completely eliminate the ability selectors and integrate otherwise the DCs that are needed in epics (tactics, spells) Probably that would be for the best. The abilities are still too important, but they require too many points of destiny and leave little space for more fun things

[redoubt]

artificers. Not all artificers are multiclass and evasion is important for a trapper. Sure, the new artificers tanks do not worry much about the traps and do not need evasion, but the classic trappers appreciate it. Not all of us play the new aberration introduced two updates ago xD

and do not forget that the artifices are still orphans of their own ED.

Sure artificers don't get evasion, but are they really going to run in SD anyway?

Tank Ariti will be US.
Ranged arti will be LD or shiradi
melee arti witll be LD or DC

While its possible, is it really likely that they will run SD for the evasion? Truly, I don't see it, but maybe someone would.

[Togwik]

I use GMOF, at END lvls my ein doesn't really do much other than stun stuff for 6 seconds. I've got the really good gear and past lives.

[J1NG]

I want you to know that when I say I tested a pure handwraps barbarian and went "hey this is actually really good" I was being 100% serious. Gmof gives you Ki and the ability to be centered, too. It's completely feasible to play a handwraps non-monk with the new Gmof. It was really, really fun, actually.

Did you know I was a FvS using GMoF? Thought not. It played well too. And had done so for many years before I TR'd her for a different capstone.

So... What you're saying about it being really fun. Advanced players already know how to do well and to make it fun, for a long time now. Did you know that the info in the wiki about how to being centered was added by yours truly? Did you know about how to charge EiN whilst using a Sword of Shadows between 2012 MotU and now on that same FvS? Did you know you could have done it with a Barbarian too? If you don't, then we're at different stages of understanding Live GMoF and why I won't bother explain more why the new design choices are wrong, especially over EiN.

Now, if you can actually tell me what attack/action performs the single jump kick in the air (that is seen during character creation, looks like you're doing the splits in the air), that might be more interesting to me, because I haven't been able to get that attack/action to happen at all even after going through all the attacks a monk can execute. Currently choreographing stuff in DDO, but can't find this animation to make things look good enough.

J1NG