2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[thunir]

Might be cool to have a “fade it to the weave” type effect then go into a fury with Executioner's strike.

This way you can diplo and stay invisible for the duration. With shrouding shot only executing at a 35% chance I would have it hit at least every two seconds.

[BLaKxDYNAMITE]

The GMOF changes is nice for non centered builds but why remove all the perks of being centered? These changes are just another attack on center builds “advantages” over non centered builds and shouldn’t be introduced with out immediate reworks to henshin and ninja spy. Why use a 1d6 quarter staff or 1d6 short sword centered when you can use a 2d6 greats word with all the perks of being centered without being centered? 2d6 base damage gain an extra 2(w) non centered get +1 19-20 Crit damage and have access to all monk perk minus the stances and the rarely used Ki moves and EIN. Centered builds already have a 50MMR cap and are restricted to using weaker base dps weapons. WHY ALL OTHER NON MONK BULDS ACCESS TO THE ONLY THINGS THAT MAKES THE BUILDS GOOD. If this drops it needs to be a rework for center melee or else no one will play the monk class. These changes will UNBALANCE the game in favor on non monk builds.

[droid327]

Yep. General quick-hit skill.

I think this is a good time to broach this discussion...

As power creep creeps on, is +[W] still the best way to approach attack-based abilities?

We have weapons now that do 5, 6, 7[W] or more every attack. And they're attacking twice, three times per second with lots of Doublestrike and alacrity (and offhand strike, etc.). So that means across the 6 second cycle of a "quick hit" attack, we might be doing 60 to 120[W] of total damage. Adding 3[W] to that cycle (or even 6, assuming it doublestrikes) is only a few % increase to base damage - so before all the additive +damage modifiers, even. It gets even more pronounced for attacks with longer CDs.

Active attacks that add to your crit profile are much more effective (when they crit). Sniper Shot, Exalted Smite, etc. do much better burst damage as you get deeper in the game compared to +[W] attacks. Maybe if Petals was a +1/+1 attack rather than +3[W], it would be more universally useful in Epics

Or, more broadly and more complicated, could special attacks be 3*[W] instead of +3[W]? In other words, they multiply whatever your W dice are instead of adding to them...so a strike with a 5[W] weapon becomes 15[W] instead of just 8[W], that would also scale better and give new options for fixing other lackluster +[W] attacks or attack-heavy trees.

[Mellkor]

For Shadow Dancer:


Maybe add auto trap finding abilities across the cores that get better with more rogue levels. (utilizing higher of spot or search maybe?)

IE:

1rst core requires 2 rogue levels to auto find traps at -12 spot or search penalty.

2nd core requires 6 rogue levels to auto find traps at a -8 spot or search penalty.

3rd core requires 10 rogue levels to auto find traps at a -4 spot or search penalty.

4th core requires 14 rogue levels to auto find traps at 0 spot or search penalty.

5th core requires 18 rogue levels to auto find and disable traps and adds a +2 spot, search, and disable device bonus.

6th core requires 20 rogue levels to auto find and disable traps and adds a +6 spot, search, disable device, and open lock bonus.


Or something along those lines. The idea is to make pure rogues better than splash rogues at finding and disabling traps.

-JR

[blerkington]

LD easily get Stealthy as a twist, but, SD can't get LD's core.
It is very strange, LD can get more direct assassinate DC than SD.

And an assassin's DC would be 15~30 lower than caster's DC after this pass. Because magister would grant +11 DC for spells, and there is no assassination DC on reaper tree, but, +7 more DC from caster reaper tree. And there is no clicky for assassination DC that increase more DC situationally unlike spells(+5 from Arcane insight, +5 from Arcane Spellsurge).

Contents would be balanced around caster's DC, so, it means assassinate would AUTO-FAIL on challenging content.

These are two really good points and I hope someone at SSG is paying attention.

There is definitely a risk of assassination DCs falling far enough behind caster DCs that the ability loses usefulness in harder content, even for those people who are going for a maximum assassination DC (not a particularly useful way to build an assassin).

The fact that LD provides better support for assassination with its proposed bonus and the option of a twist from SD shows the lack of thought that went into the SD changes. Fixing a few bugs and usability issues, and adding more crit damage, is a pretty weak revision.

As I said before, it's nice that some of those shadow form abilities are being adjusted, but there's plenty of room for improvement in other parts of the tree too. And by the way, the solution to the oversight with DCs is not to continue overloading shadow form by slapping a DC bonus on it as well. It's to look at the cores.

Do something to support build diversity both within the tree and by comparison to LD, for pity's sake. If you think the tree really needs more power please don't shovel most of it into a tiny group of abilities so there's basically only one way to use the tree as a melee rogue.

And I know this ship has pretty much already sailed, but please ease up with turning melee rogues into nothing more than fighters with an instakill.

Thanks.

[Cetus]

Reducing LD's helpless damage to 15% is a harsh and disappointing nerf.

This ability has zero utility if a) the target is a red or purple named b) the target is not helpless c) I am not boosting. So the beef with LD is that a target that is rendered helpless (which is usually doomed to die anyway) is taking 50% extra helpless damage if I'm using a boost against it? All this is doing is making me upset that my numbers will be smaller, and not really affecting any practical aspect of how a melee character in LD will operate.

This is a useless change in my opinion that is, frankly, a bit annoying as a melee player who likes to see big numbers.

The problem is not LD, the destiny is in an amazing place. A truly robust DPS destiny that I don't think should really be altered in any major way. Shadowdancer, GMoF, and Fury are getting tweaked now, lets stick to baby steps please. This is my suggestion, for what its worth.

[Nickodeamous]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Let me dive into a few things:


Yep. General quick-hit skill.


Like I said in the OP, we didn't get to make all the changes we would've liked to, and making this ability shine is one of them. We might be able to add some quick things (sneak dice?) to boost it up.


Yes. The DC for Everything is Nothing will be DC 10+Character Level+Wisdom Modifier+Stunning Bonuses.


You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.


We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.


We're very comfortable with where both Dodge Cap and MRR Cap are right now, and don't plan to increase those in the Destiny Pass. We understand that means some abilities will not be as useful on characters that are hitting those caps.

Filling in the missing paragraph that essentially says EIN is a huge nerf forcing us to go to LD that was left out by Steel. With all due respect, just wanted to know why only specific parts of this paragraph below were selected. seems very relevant to talk about all aspects and not just the ones that suit the nerf.

So, its currently "worth" about 50 kills per quest at a minimum. When I deliberately save it for a specific encounter, that means I must be getting even more value out of that, or I wouldn't bother. Most quests since Ravenloft take somewhere between 5 and 15 minutes. At 4 kills per 3 minutes (plus one use immediately at the beginning), the new EiN is worth 4 to 20 kills per quest, depending on length. That's a staggering 60% to 92% nerf to the single most powerful ability in GMoF. This is also a quality of life decrease. The reduced range means it probably can't hit the flying Doom Skulls over the lava on Too Hot to Handle. The target count limit means that Deathblocked mobs in the area will also protect other nearby mobs from being killed -- they currently don't. All told, I'm being forced to consider switching over to Legendary Dreadnought, the very overused destiny that you seem to be trying to get people to switch away from.

Real talk: EiN probably does need to be nerfed. Me rounding up 4+ packs of mobs almost certainly causes lag, at least until I kill them all. Being able to kill that many things at once is probably too powerful and too constraining on the design space and encourages toxic behavior. GMoF does have other things going for it, for example +3 tactics DCs, Slippery Mind, all three no-fail saves, and knockdown immunity. Particularly now that Legendary Dreadnought grants +2 tactics DCs, it's really hard to see those benefits adding up to more value than the ~25% more raw DPS and 15% helpless DPS from Legendary Dreadnought. Even for monks, GmoF is still less popular than Legendary Dreadnought, so if a melee monk -- arguably the one spec GMoF is intended to be most suited for -- is reconsidering the whole tree, then these changes have failed the two goals above.

[IBCrabin]

The only issue I have with that is Tier 2 is currently full. Without pushing something else somewhere, there's not really a place for it to go.

Given the change to fatesinger at tier 4

Martial Hymn:

Martial: +1 STR DEX WIS, +2 Sneak Dice, +20 max HP, +10 PRR and MRR, +5 AC, +10 Melee and Ranged Power

Is there a possibility of adding 10 melee / range power to the enhancement instead of the +2 skill?

[blerkington]

I'd suggest removing the double light damage from Shadow Form and making it so creatures with Tremorsense or similar no longer auto-detect you (since you float).

Again, I think this suffers from the problem of overloading one particular part of the tree with all of its best abilities. That's already a problem with the proposed changes and this would make it even worse. If something like this were added it would be better off in the cores or another part of the tree.

Given the current state of stealth play, I'd be very surprised if the developers allowed any build to bypass tremorsense. Not that they haven't surprised me with their decisions before, but they've been consistently strangling this playstyle for the last couple of years so a change like this would be a big reversal.

Thanks.

[0ldschool]

Again, I think this suffers from the problem of overloading one particular part of the tree with all of its best abilities. That's already a problem with the proposed changes and this would make it even worse. If something like this were added it would be better off in the cores or another part of the tree.

Given the current state of stealth play, I'd be very surprised if the developers allowed any build to bypass tremorsense. Not that they haven't surprised me with their decisions before, but they've been consistently strangling this playstyle for the last couple of years so a change like this would be a big reversal.

Thanks.

Perhaps that one is a bridge too far. I do think we all agree that SD needed a lot of work and got quite a bit less than was needed. The rogue auto-detect traps idea is interesting, but it doesn't address the lack of DPS and the over-reliance on Assassinate. This should not be an Assassinate only destiny. I am all for strengthening the cores, perhaps that is where I should have targeted more of my suggestions, beyond just adding SA die there. Spit-balling now, but a +5% fort bypass along with +3d6 sneak attack die per level could be a good start on strengthening the cores. and add in + 2 Hide, MS, OL, DD, and Assassinate per level while you're at it. Shadow Mastery proc on a 19 & 20. Give real benefits to those who commit to the destiny.

[blerkington]

Perhaps that one is a bridge too far. I do think we all agree that SD needed a lot of work and got quite a bit less than was needed. The rogue auto-detect traps idea is interesting, but it doesn't address the lack of DPS and the over-reliance on Assassinate. This should not be an Assassinate only destiny. I am all for strengthening the cores, perhaps that is where I should have targeted more of my suggestions, beyond just adding SA die there. Spit-balling now, but a +5% fort bypass along with +3d6 sneak attack die per level could be a good start on strengthening the cores. and add in + 2 Hide, MS, OL, DD, and Assassinate per level while you're at it. Shadow Mastery proc on a 19 & 20. Give real benefits to those who commit to the destiny.

The DPS available to well-built melee rogues in SD is not as high as LD, but it's still fairly high. If you take a look at some of the figures mentioned by people who tested it (back with Ravenloft gear) you might be surprised at what could be achieved, and with Sharn gear obviously it's gone up again. It's more than adequate for completing most of the hardest content in the game, once you have a good build and gear.

SD gets a fair bit of melee power as it is, and it contains other forms of DPS boosts too (both directly and indirectly through defensive abilities like Meld, which allows you to maintain damage output), so it's by no means an assassination only tree. The problem with this revision is that the person making the decisions seems to be unable to see the tree as anything but being all about shadow form, so that part of the tree is being loaded up to the point where there will be very little point in selecting any other abilities, and the cores themselves don't do much for us either.

These threads where people are lobbying for more character power make me very uncomfortable. It puts some of us in the very awkward position of having to choose between seeing difficulty being eroded further or becoming the victims of a proxy nerf through other builds being made stronger. So already we have this, the over-focus on shadow form to the exclusion of everything else, and now even more reason for those looking to keep their DCs up to run in LD rather than SD. It's shaping up to be a pretty bad revision, particularly as a missed opportunity for something that will likely not be touched again in years.

Thanks.

[SemanticMirage]

Reducing LD's helpless damage to 15% is a harsh and disappointing nerf.

This ability has zero utility if a) the target is a red or purple named b) the target is not helpless c) I am not boosting. So the beef with LD is that a target that is rendered helpless (which is usually doomed to die anyway) is taking 50% extra helpless damage if I'm using a boost against it? All this is doing is making me upset that my numbers will be smaller, and not really affecting any practical aspect of how a melee character in LD will operate.

This is a useless change in my opinion that is, frankly, a bit annoying as a melee player who likes to see big numbers.

The problem is not LD, the destiny is in an amazing place. A truly robust DPS destiny that I don't think should really be altered in any major way. Shadowdancer, GMoF, and Fury are getting tweaked now, lets stick to baby steps please. This is my suggestion, for what its worth.

I absolutely agree, all this change does is give martial DPS toons a 14-15% damage nerf on helpless mobs. This would be a complete net DPS loss for all martial toons, there's nothing in the new buffs that helps compensate for this damage decrease.

I don't think people were ever really calling for a nerf to LD but rather a substantial buff to the other destinies to bring them closer to LD's level.

[OfElectricMen]

game falls out of balance.

This game has been out of balance for 10 years and nothing short of a complete rebuild is going to fix that, so let's stop acting like any of this is about balance.

[OfElectricMen]

My role is to kill everything I can as fast as I can.

Actually, the monk's role is tactical battleground mobility. It's the job of fighters and barbarians to kill everything they can as fast as they can. Your job is priority targets.

[Duhboy]

Reducing LD's helpless damage to 15% is a harsh and disappointing nerf.

This ability has zero utility if a) the target is a red or purple named b) the target is not helpless c) I am not boosting. So the beef with LD is that a target that is rendered helpless (which is usually doomed to die anyway) is taking 50% extra helpless damage if I'm using a boost against it? All this is doing is making me upset that my numbers will be smaller, and not really affecting any practical aspect of how a melee character in LD will operate.

This is a useless change in my opinion that is, frankly, a bit annoying as a melee player who likes to see big numbers.

The problem is not LD, the destiny is in an amazing place. A truly robust DPS destiny that I don't think should really be altered in any major way. Shadowdancer, GMoF, and Fury are getting tweaked now, lets stick to baby steps please. This is my suggestion, for what its worth.

I don't see the point in nerfing this aswell. I personally want to know why this proposed change came about? What builds did they test to come to the conclusion that Combat Brute needed a kick in the sac. Maybe the problem isn't the ability itself. Maybe it's certain builds that could be over performing that needs to be looked at.

[Duhboy]

I absolutely agree, all this change does is give martial DPS toons a 14-15% damage nerf on helpless mobs. This would be a complete net DPS loss for all martial toons, there's nothing in the new buffs that helps compensate for this damage decrease.

I don't think people were ever really calling for a nerf to LD but rather a substantial buff to the other destinies to bring them closer to LD's level.

+1

[0ldschool]

The DPS available to well-built melee rogues in SD is not as high as LD, but it's still fairly high. If you take a look at some of the figures mentioned by people who tested it (back with Ravenloft gear) you might be surprised at what could be achieved, and with Sharn gear obviously it's gone up again. It's more than adequate for completing most of the hardest content in the game, once you have a good build and gear.

SD gets a fair bit of melee power as it is, and it contains other forms of DPS boosts too (both directly and indirectly through defensive abilities like Meld, which allows you to maintain damage output), so it's by no means an assassination only tree. The problem with this revision is that the person making the decisions seems to be unable to see the tree as anything but being all about shadow form, so that part of the tree is being loaded up to the point where there will be very little point in selecting any other abilities, and the cores themselves don't do much for us either.

These threads where people are lobbying for more character power make me very uncomfortable. It puts some of us in the very awkward position of having to choose between not wanting to see difficulty being eroded further or becoming the victims of a proxy nerf through other builds being made stronger. So already we have this, the over-focus on shadow form to the exclusion of everything else, and now even more reason for those looking to keep their DCs up to run in LD rather than SD. It's shaping up to be a pretty bad revision, particularly as a missed opportunity for something that will likely not be touched again in years.

Thanks.

Fair enough. I'm pretty new around here, and at the moment my perspective is really only valid for ranged / Rogue Mechanic. I'll defer to you RE melee rogues. MP from LD to SD is +42, RP is only +12, so there's a big difference. With the Shiradi changes, I think that they will accomplish their goal of getting more ranged into Shiradi, at the expense of SD. Those that are using Blitz/Fury will still be tough to sway. As a rogue lover, I'm sad for Shadowdancer. It is to me the most interesting and fun ED, though admittedly not the most powerful DPS-wise, and has the potential to be even more fun. I very much worry that it's being consigned to the scrap heap in this ED pass. The fact that the very bad Epic Moment was not part of this ED pass is extremely hard to swallow, esp. in light of the love showered upon Shiradi with a brand new T6 ability.

[cloudnaeris]

[*]Shadow Manipulation now has a 3-minute cooldown.

I understand there is no need for charges with this new concept and that it will finally get a dc increase, however, I would urge you not to increase the cooldown of this ability. It is a single target charm that already takes a significant amount of time to take advantage of.

[blerkington]

Fair enough. I'm pretty new around here, and at the moment my perspective is really only valid for ranged / Rogue Mechanic. I'll defer to you RE melee rogues. MP from LD to SD is +42, RP is only +12, so there's a big difference. With the Shiradi changes, I think that they will accomplish their goal of getting more ranged into Shiradi, at the expense of SD. Those that are using Blitz/Fury will still be tough to sway. As a rogue lover, I'm sad for Shadowdancer. It is to me the most interesting and fun ED, though admittedly not the most powerful DPS-wise, and has the potential to be even more fun. I very much worry that it's being consigned to the scrap heap in this ED pass. The fact that the very bad Epic Moment was not part of this ED pass is extremely hard to swallow, esp. in light of the love showered upon Shiradi with a brand new T6 ability.

Don't let my despondency about this put you off.

If you want the ED to be improved for ranged builds you should definitely post your ideas and argue for them. At least that way you would have tried to get the things that bother you changed.

I agree with you that the tree is not doing much for ranged builds.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Innokentiy]

I just wanted to say that we are aware of your concern about the number of attacks over time with Two-Handed fighting in particular, and are looking into some possible improvements. It's a bit early to provider further detail, however.

Just don't fix twitching please.