2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[Noircere]

(Continued)

I'm looking at the GMoF changes from a monk perspective. I feel the that nerf to Everything is Nothing outweighs all the following benefits combined, and discussed that in a previous post.

Grandmaster of Flowers

• Inner Focus and Wholeness of Spirit now allow for movement during use
• Wholeness of Spirit has its cooldown reduced to 2 minutes
• Ki actives (the left column) now scale with the higher of Melee or Ranged Power
• Ki actives get Stunning bonuses added to their DC calculations
• Ki actives can now be used under Antimagic, as they are not spells
• Ki actives are no longer linked in a line
• Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement)
• Walking with Waves no longer requires Ocean stance for its Dodge bonus
• Standing with Stone no longer requires Mountain Stance for its PRR.
• Dancing with Flame no longer requires Sun Stance for its (w) bonus.

Very nice quality of life improvements!

Walking with Waves is kind of weak still. 3% dodge without any dodge cap is irrelevant for virtually every build.
Dancing with Flame is kind of weak still. +1 hit, +1 damage, and +1[W] for 3 destiny points is about 1.8% DPS per point. That's weak for a tier 5. Compare to Devastating Critical below, which is about 6% DPS per point.

• A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.
• Hail of Blows now adds +3 melee damage in addition to its doublestrike

These kind of complement each other, adding up to exactly no change at cap with a [d6+3] weapon. It's even a slight buff for low-epics.

• Lily Petal and Orchid Blossom now care about levels 26-30 in terms of scaling with character level (was previously capping at 25)
• Lily Petal now grants 5 Ki instead of costing Ki
• A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds.
  
  • A Scattering of Petals also reduces enemy Fortification by 200% for 12 seconds, and affected creatures lose immunity to Sneak Attack for that duration.
  • A Scattering of Petals now has a detect the same size as Drifting Lotus (i.e. twice as large).
  • A Scattering of Petals now has a 90 second cooldown.

Lily Petal granting ki is neat! I love the design! Now bow/shuriken monks can generate ki. Very cool! Maybe let this attack scale with enhanced ki items and doubleshot too? Not sure 5 ki per 6sec is enough to allow ranged monks full access to their ki abilities, nor non-monks full access to the ki spenders in GMoF. Note that it's not useful as an attack; a single melee swing deals around 2400 damage, and takes 0.49sec to execute, without any buffs or boosts -- and I'm weak compared to actual good DPS players. At the same melee power, Lily Petal deals 1000 damage, and takes nearly 1sec to execute. Consider speeding up the cast and boosting the damage a lot.

Orchid Blossom has the same problem. It does much less DPS than, say, Whirlwind Attack. Or even just punching each target once. Consider speeding up the cast and boosting the damage.

Drifting Lotus is fantastic now with the DC buff.

A Scattering of Petals is also fantastic now with the PRR buff. The MRR is irrelevant due to MRR caps. Consider letting it grant MRR cap too, during the buff uptime.

• NEW: T2: The Flower's Thorn: +3[w] attack. 6 second cooldown. Does not require Centering. Has cool petal FX. (1 Rank, 1AP)

If spammed on cooldown, this is worth +0.8% DPS. Weak even for a Tier 2, AND monks already have more special attacks than we know what to do with. Needs to be a lot better to be worth a keybind.

• NEW: T5: Devastating Critical (+1 Critical Multiplier on a 19-20) (1 Rank, 1AP)

Very nice! Not quite enough, but this gets it a lot closer to Legendary Dreadnought.

[guzzlr]

• Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
  
  • Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently.

Legendary Dreadnought

• Combat Brute's Helplessness damage is now 15%.

Shadowdancer

• Shadow Manipulation now has a 3-minute cooldown.

EIN:
Got into a spirited discussion about this with the girlfriend. She knows how I feel about monks (have to be better than fighters at everything, all because Oriental Adventures sold REALLY well back in the day). That being said, this ability has never really shined after it's initial "Holy Cr@p!" release. Reducing the 5-minute cooldown is nice, but the 4-enemy limit is pretty brutal. Change the graphics or whatever, but I've been convinced (by said girlfriend) that it should be at least as good as Frog (she says better). My opinion is that 4 enemy is fine (if it works), but the cool down is still too long. Fights in today's game are fast and furious, you bash heads (or pose for a second, wiggle a finger, and drop into horse stance if you are a monk ), and you move on. 2 Minutes and 5 enemies seems good.

Combat Brute:
My Freezing bard does not like this. 15%?!?! That is a heck of a nerf! Way to far. Is this because of new abilities that add to helpless damage these days (Falconry and Sets)? So you have a 6th Core ability that has to be under the effect of certain action boosts, to get a boost that is HALF what a Tier 4 ability does (Sense Weakness) or a heroic (No Mercy)? I don't like the nerf at all, but at least keep it on par with those other abilities. Not less than 30%.

Shadow Manipulation:
I love this ability as it works now. It takes a bit to get the charges built up, but after an enemy or two I can start charming and organizing my fights nicely. That being said, removing the charges is cool. Helping the DC is cool. Adding a minute to the cooldown is not. 2 minutes was just about right for a 2 person Shadowdancer team. We had to wait 10-20 seconds before starting the next fight (one fight one charms, next fight the other charms), but the flow worked really well and is a fun way to play. 3 minutes is too long for those who are building around this signature ability.

tldr: Back off the nerfs a bit, and 3 minutes between signature abilities is about a minute too long.

Thanks

[silinteresting]

oh well, the only reason i ever play a monk is because of everything is nothing,
the abilty to clear a room was great fun. however as much as i understand the
reason for the change i dont like it, but hey ho everything changes over time.

your friend sil

[Steelstar]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Let me dive into a few things:

NEW: T2: The Flower's Thorn: +3[w] attack. 6 second cooldown. Does not require Centering. Has cool petal FX. (1 Rank, 1AP) Is this just a simple +3[w] Attack? Nothing extra added to it?

Yep. General quick-hit skill.

Dark Imbuement no longer uses Dark Imbuement Charges, and just functions on a cooldown.
Dark Imbuement now has a 2-minute cooldown.
Dark Imbuement now costs 1AP.
Dark Imbuement no longer requires Shadow Form.
No offense, but still won't be taking this absolute garbage of an ability. On a melee you get 2d6 NON-SCALING unholy damage per hit and your melee range increases a bit for 30 seconds every 2 minutes. Even just a plain +2 Sneak Attack Dice would be better than this because that actually scales. And you can get that from a bunch of other places. This isn't an epic moment at all.

Like I said in the OP, we didn't get to make all the changes we would've liked to, and making this ability shine is one of them. We might be able to add some quick things (sneak dice?) to boost it up.

Does this apply to Everything is Nothing as well?

Yes. The DC for Everything is Nothing will be DC 10+Character Level+Wisdom Modifier+Stunning Bonuses.

On live, I can use EiN about once per quest. I sometimes use it twice in a raid. It can't be used in very short quests, like everything in the Cogs, and it can't be used near the beginning of a quest, nor shortly after resting. I typically use it in one of two ways:

• Tactically, to lessen or neutralize the toughest encounter in a quest.
• Gratuitously, to kill 50+ enemies at a time by pulling waaaaay more enemies than the party could usually handle if EiN weren't available.

(omitted a paragraph for length)
Real talk: EiN probably does need to be nerfed. Me rounding up 4+ packs of mobs almost certainly causes lag, at least until I kill them all. Being able to kill that many things at once is probably too powerful and too constraining on the design space and encourages toxic behavior.

You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.

If the ability really can't be kept as-is, then it needs to be stronger than currently planned or GMoF needs a serious power boost somewhere else. Some people have suggested making EiN a 6-target 1min cooldown ability, effectively a clone of Mass Frog. This would be fine. That would be worth 30 to 90 kills per quest, but it would lose the ability to specifically neutralize the single toughest encounter in a quest. It would scale better with quest length, be usable at the beginning, and not make you want to skip resting to avoid losing it. It would however still have the problem of "wasting" target cap on immune mobs. All-in-all, this would be fair.

We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

(Continued)
Walking with Waves is kind of weak still. 3% dodge without any dodge cap is irrelevant for virtually every build.
A Scattering of Petals is also fantastic now with the PRR buff. The MRR is irrelevant due to MRR caps. Consider letting it grant MRR cap too, during the buff uptime.

We're very comfortable with where both Dodge Cap and MRR Cap are right now, and don't plan to increase those in the Destiny Pass. We understand that means some abilities will not be as useful on characters that are hitting those caps.

[Vorachtin]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Let me dive into a few things:



We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

I think the logic is fairly reasoned you laid out, my counter point would be implosion this 5-6 mobs with fairly easy to obtain DC. I think 4 mobs is the wrong number for new EIN, it should be 6 mobs. Still a limited number, not way over the top, similar to several spells obtained at 17-18 i.e implosion, wail etc

[Vish]

Vish here,
From the grave

A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.

Every melee will twist this now
A 1w buff to melee
A .5w nerf to monk


Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently.

Ein was very useful very monk
No charging? It was the challenge of the playstyle to charge it.
That's what throwing flowers, or the art of the left and right (stunning fist and quivering palm) was about
Cheesing it for everyone
Really kills monks
Really, performance issues? Hamsters?
Used maybe once a quest, twice in long
Now with 3 min cool, maybe 5 times, in one run?
And only 4 tgts?
Again, death of monk, death of gmof for monk
Other than for wisdom builds

Why don't you make all eds have all 6 attributes for selection?
Then you'd really have some variety

I guess now that I'm gone,
Bury monk, and say your prayers

Definately no reason to return
Thanks for the confirmation

[Arkat]

You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.


We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

You need to change the name of "Everything is Nothing" to something else like "Up to 4 Things are Nothing."

Doesn't sound as fun, does it? That's because it isn't and THAT'S what matters.

So much for making the game more "fun."

[J1NG]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Let me dive into a few things:

Always a pleasure to read changes, until we read a "what the fudge are you thinking" stuff which invariably crops up every so often.

Yes. The DC for Everything is Nothing will be DC 10+Character Level+Wisdom Modifier+Stunning Bonuses.

Excellent.

You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.

But it was the single ability that MADE this Destiny. And it wasn't even a strong ability either because it was so easy to fail, something which the Devs seem to be ignoring. Currently, it has more utility in live compared to this change the Devs are implementing because it does allow players to provide everyone a "Quick, we have 6 seconds roughly before everything that EiN can affect swarms everyone again, regroup, REGROUP!!" by "stunning" the enemies for 6s. It has been a LONG time since EiN was used to clear a room that it couldn't have done already (enemies with weak Will saves), in other words, if it can be done, there's no difference at high level or low level, it's the same lot anyway.

We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

This is where the Devs have got it wrong.

At level 20, you can activate EiN. Sure. That's nice. But your new version of EiN has even bigger flaws than before.
1. Bosses take up a target of the new EiN.
2. Immune (Phasing) targets take up a target of the new EiN.
3. There is no control for who or what is affected by the new EiN.
4. There's a DC for the new EiN that on moments where you do want EiN, it will fail anyway as you can't get those DC's except for those who have been here a long while and grinded everything out.
5. Doesn't work well after levels 26'ish, because of silly stat inflation that was implemented in many quests at those levels and how many mobs the Devs placed in quests there.

Currently on Live.
1. We don't care about Bosses, because even if they are in range, the REAL targets will be affected.
2. We don't care about Immune (Phasing) targets even if they are in range, because the REAL targets will still be affected.
3. Because of lag, or anything else (someone dragging a mob through last minute), current EiN doesn't care as it will still hit them and the ones you wanted to target anyway.
4. We know the DC won't work in most cases anyway, it's a nice thing if it works, but the real use is to give the party time to recover.
5. Doesn't work well after levels 24'ish, because of silly stat inflation that was implemented in many quests at those levels and how many mobs the Devs placed in quests there.

So at early levels, it's an overall nerf because of targetting issues and NOT a boost despite the DC increase. And at cap, it's a HEAVY nerf, because of even MORE targetting issues (because lets face it, to "challenge" players, you made everything Red Named, or bosses. So it invalidates having ANY DC on this DC change in the first place since it wouldn't even work had the DC succeeded). But at Cap, there's another ability: Mass Frog, that can be more easily controlled and has a cooldown that's 1/3 of the new EiN, AND because there's a higher kill limit involved. If there's a few immune mobs, might get 1 kill still. But the new EiN is "maybe" you get 1 kill in the midst of the same amount of immune mobs because of the lack of control and cooldown of the ability. Whilst Mass Frog you can have 3 attemps (potentially 3 kills up to 18, compared to potentially 1 kill up to 4 for EiN in the same time frame).

To ignore Mass Frog is to ignore that Epic Destiny is supposed to span ALL of Levels 20 to 30. You gave a DC check which "could" insta-kill affected targets, but gave targets so many save boosts and immunities that at best players can only hope to deal 500 Bane Damage at the end of EiN IF they were not immune. And what is 500 damage these days? We do more sneezing at enemies these days.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

"Overall" dps? Are you kidding? Why use EiN when you can Blitz? The Actives being boosted is nice, but without further utility to them or proper scaling, they mean very little comparitively.

---

My suggestion?

Change EiN:
New AOE range (Double of Lotus)
3 minute cooldown
Targets: 4 only
Save vs DC: Will (DC made up as proposed)

Failure = Erase + Mobs take 100% Health Loss (to prevent those targetted "immune" from Erase from ignoring EiN), Orange Named take 33% Health Loss (they're bosses, so takes a lot less), Red Named take 15% Health Loss (further reduction for being a Boss, but still some notable affect), Purple Named take 1% Health Loss (which will be noticably more than the 500 bane damage that barely hits 1%). Health loss can be modified by Reaper difficulty but not ignored by mobs through immunity (ala the Mortal Fear immunity nerf). So Reaper 10 mobs only take 90% Health Loss, Orange 23%, Red 5% and Purple named ignores all. And even on Reaper 1, Mobs will largely remain alive because they only take 99% Health reduction, etc.

Save = Stun for 6s, + after 6 seconds, Mobs take 50% Health Loss, Orange Named take 15% Health Loss, Red Named takes 5% Health Loss, Purple Name ignores.

Health loss should not mitigated by the "Immunity" the Devs placed in against something like Mortal Fear. This then lets the EiN ability ACTUALLY be useful in a variety of instances AND it isn't hampered by targetting issues which you cannot control from it being an AOE. With the limit of 4 targets, this at least keeps some semblance of it as it was without making it entirely overpowered, since it makes it more of a sure fire ability once invested into. Unlike now, where even if you invest heavily into the new EiN, with "Immune" and Bosses, etc, taking up target slots, it basically means this Epic Moment is less than an Destiny Feat or many other lesser abilities. Technically speaking, Drifting Lotus and Blossom does MORE than the new EiN because their base damage could in theory supercede that dealt by EiN by a failed save or "immune" target.

Devs: Why have lower level Actives in GMoF made more powerful than its own Epic Moment?

J1NG

[Jandric]

So I think your right on the money nerfing Combat Brut to 15% helpless damage.

However an alternative to nerfing that could be Nerf Sense Weakness to 10% helpless damage (3/6/10%) Then give Fury or the Wild, Shadowdancer, Divine Crusader, Primal Avater and Fatesinger+5% Helpless damage in each core. That's a 10% buff in Fury, 0 or 30% nerf in LD (removes a must have twist for most people) and a 30% buff to all other destinies.

This is a bit more nuanced the then the strait nerf.

The capstone ability of an Epic Destiny should not be 50% worse than No Mercy, a Tier 4 heroic enhancement that appears in several trees (including a universal tree). If nerfing it to 15% seems out of context with other abilities in the game, the answer isn't to start nerfing other abilities. It's an indicator of how big of an over-reaction this is. Reducing it to 30% from 50% might be appropriate, but 15% is too much.

[kain741]

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

So will the name change from Everything is Nothing to Four things is Nothing?
The name kind of indicates to me (and most) the spirit of the ability.

[ChadB123]

You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.


We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.


We're very comfortable with where both Dodge Cap and MRR Cap are right now, and don't plan to increase those in the Destiny Pass. We understand that means some abilities will not be as useful on characters that are hitting those caps.

Hi, my main is a monk and I'd like to provide some feedback. Currently, I run in LD because the DPS and utility it offers far outweigh that of GMoF on live. Once I heard about the ED pass, I was excited about the chance to finally run in GMoF. However, the changes you've made are not enough for me to change, and believe me, I really want an incentive to run another ED.

Here are my thoughts:

1) The Ki attacks, aside from Drifting Lotus because of its CC, will not be used because I lose damage by using them instead of normal fist attacks.
2) The stance requirement changes are good, but since this tree is dedicated to monk arch-type, I should expect more for centered characters.
3) I don't see much DPS increase for monks running GMoF. In fact, I notice some decreases in damage output.
4) I agree that some changes to EIN are needed from a balance perspective. My DC would be high enough to clear a room on R10 and that, in my opinion, is OP. However, the changes you've suggested have made it quite underwhelming. A 3min cooldown for a chance to kill 4 mobs? I say a chance because mobs in the content I run are often champs with DW. This is not an epic moment. Please, give monks something to pull them away from LD. If not outright DPS increases, give them cool abilities like EIN. Expand it to 6 mobs and decrease the time to 2 min. Wail and Implosion are both 17/18 level spells that target 6 mobs and can be used every minute. Is it really "balanced" for a tier 6 ED ability to be so much weaker?

[Eryhn]

Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

I am generally confused by the notion that insta killing a number of mobs STRESSES the server. the uninformed, non techy, non developer mind capable of general logic would assume:

for each mob the server is calculating all that mobs actions and all actions against that mob by players, removing said mob, thus LESSENS load?


this seems counterintuitive? if your server reacts that way maybe there is something about the backend that needs a DIRECT fix that isn't related to any specific instakill ability?

feel free to clear out any misconceptions on my part by elaborating on whats goin on here ...

[thunir]

I’ve been looking at this and can’t help but feel Dark Imbument got left out.


Sure the ap reduction and timer is nice, but 2d6 unholy damage is silly especially when compared to turn of the tide, fury, or blitz.

I’m glad your doing something but how does this compare? 2d6 vs 40% dmamge bost and 200 sonic and light damage that now effects red names?

I’m not even saying it needs to be a damage boost. You could put executioners shot/ strike every seven seconds for 45 seconds like fury. Maybe vorpal on a 19 and do level drain and aoe evil burst on vorpal for 30 seconds. Make the evil damage scaleable. It doesn’t need to be more physical damage ie. MP or crit enhancements, but something.

Please take a look at this.

[zehnvhex]

feel free to clear out any misconceptions on my part by elaborating on whats goin on here ...

More than likely EIN uses some sort of script, the script probably isn't very well made, when it fires off it has to be fired off on every single mob it targets. This causes a performance hit.

So while afterwards the server has less things to worry about, sure, but in that particular instant where it's running the EIN script against 50+ mobs, the game is not very happy.

[Arkat]

So while afterwards the server has less things to worry about, sure, but in that particular instant where it's running the EIN script against 50+ mobs, the game is not very happy.

There are ways, of course, to address this without nerfing EiN but they'd be pretty expensive.

My problem is I have trouble agreeing with the Devs that it taxes the server as much as they seem to indicate it does.

EiN is how old? I find it hard to believe they figured out it's been this big a problem for this long before addressing it NOW.

I'm betting this EiN nerf really won't make a difference in game performance that is noticeable to the players.

[Paisheng]

Yes. The DC for Everything is Nothing will be DC 10+Character Level+Wisdom Modifier+Stunning Bonuses.

You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.

We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

Thank you for responding and keeping the dialogue open on GMOF.

It sounds like your main concern of the current EIN is that is taxes the servers.

Is this because of the graphics, mechanics or something else? Could the mechanics not be changed so it works as a mass death much like caster death spells, as I assume they do not tax the server? And as much as I think it is a great graphic, monks would be happy to have that changed as well to maintain the current impact of the EIN.

I and from what I am hearing of the other monks on this forum and in groups is that they would rather keep the 5 min timer and its unlimited impact on mobs. By reducing it's range as you have planned will impact the number of mobs in a room reducing their numbers which addresses your secondary issue of game balance. This is a more moderate nerf and maintains the tier 6 impact that EIN currently has -- assuming you can change the mechanics/graphics so it doesn't impair servers.


All that said, if you are going ahead with your proposed changes as they now stand I will give some number recommendations. (And while it is true a level 20 monk can use EIN and Frog isn't til 28, keep in mind other tier 6 Destiny melee abilities also are being used at 20 such as Tree and Blitz. Furthermore many are looking at end game results in which case despite the new higher dc of EIN it barely would be equivalent to Frog's greater numbers and quicker timer). I mean the others running LD can have Blitz and an EIN-like ability, Frog, which will be more killing force and more frequency than GMOF monks.)

EIN should have a 2 minute timer (twice Frog) then but kills should be more than Frog: 8 mobs potentially.

This would still feel as a painful nerf to monks in GMOF but it would be more palatable.

Thanks for still flexing on this, and many of us monks will give a fair shake to the changes finally made on Lammania and report back.

[Grace_ana]

We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.

I disagree that overall dps will increase at all significantly in GMoF, but that is a quibble for another day.

Even if you don't want to emulate Mass Frog, I would ask that you consider Mass Frog/implosion/wail/undeath to death/any other mass instakill ability in the game. All of those except Frog are accessible much earlier and can be spammed a ton. They are limited only my spellpoints, cooldowns, and number of mobs hit. Spellpoints are really somewhat irrelevant, since you have shrines, pots, and (in reaper) lost spirits. That leaves the cooldown and number of mobs hit.

*Wail: 50 or 60 second cooldown, max 6 mobs, lvl 16-18
*Implosion: 60 second cooldown, max 5 mobs, lvl 17-18
*Undeath to Death: 25 or 30 second cooldown, no apparent max (AOE), lvl 11-13
*Mass Frog: 60 second cooldown, max 6 mobs, lvl 28
Circle of Death: 30 second cooldown, no apparent max (AOE), lvl 11-13
*things that are useful into epics

Compare to the new EIN: 3 min cooldown, max 4 mobs, lvl 20

These are not at all comparable. EIN requires a commitment to an entire destiny and is supposed to be an epic moment. DCs are not an argument really, since anyone I know that has any of these things can land them relatively reliably with less overall investment.

If you really insist on changing EIN to be limited to 4 mobs, it should have no more than a 60 second cooldown. That's still weaker than a lot of these, like wail, but the tradeoff is that it doesn't need spellpoints (which is barely a tradeoff as I already noted, but whatever). I would prefer a 6 mob max at either a 90 second cooldown or, instead of a cooldown, a ki cost.

[Grailhawk]

The capstone ability of an Epic Destiny should not be 50% worse than No Mercy, a Tier 4 heroic enhancement that appears in several trees (including a universal tree). If nerfing it to 15% seems out of context with other abilities in the game, the answer isn't to start nerfing other abilities. It's an indicator of how big of an over-reaction this is. Reducing it to 30% from 50% might be appropriate, but 15% is too much.

If you only go to 30% then you need to get rid or Action Hero. The Blitz, Action Hero, Combat Brute package is too strong on as it is now in Live to allow any other Destiny to even compete with it.

Action Hero is the unique cool thing in LD this is why it should be the last thing touched. Blitz has already been nerfed and other destinies balance around it. It's now Combat Brute's turn and it needs a big decrease like this or every other destiny needs a big increase (~30%) in helpless damage. Its easier, better long run balance, and not homogeneous design to nerf Combat Brute then buff everything else.

We have spend the last 7 years where there has really only been once good choice for melee destiny this needs to change; and here's the kicker Action Hero on its own is so good this nerf may not change anything.

[Chacka_DDO]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Let me dive into a few things:


Yep. General quick-hit skill.


Like I said in the OP, we didn't get to make all the changes we would've liked to, and making this ability shine is one of them. We might be able to add some quick things (sneak dice?) to boost it up.


Yes. The DC for Everything is Nothing will be DC 10+Character Level+Wisdom Modifier+Stunning Bonuses.


You've nailed a big portion of why this skill needed a change:

• Being able to reliably kill that many enemies simultaneously is not good for game balance, and
• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.


We understand the comparison to Mass Frog. They aren't exactly equatable, in our view.

• With the revamped DC, EiN has a much easier to achieve DC than Mass Frog.
• EiN is obtainable at 20 (if you've played the Destiny before), as opposed to MF which is obtainable at 28.

We're up for potentially tweaking the cooldown of EiN down a bit, but Mass Frog isn't really our emulation target here.

All that said, saying that the changes to GMOF are a nerf to Monks is missing the entire forest for one very specific tree. While you aren't able to vanish an entire room, overall DPS has gone up. That isn't to say there aren't still improvements to be made; we're looking at a few other posts in here that suggested specific numbers tweaks and looking at what that would do to things.


We're very comfortable with where both Dodge Cap and MRR Cap are right now, and don't plan to increase those in the Destiny Pass. We understand that means some abilities will not be as useful on characters that are hitting those caps.

I wonder if you really dont understand that you are going to change EIN from a "game changer" ability to just a simple deaths spell that just hit several targets like Mass Frog or Circle of Death.
This is something that removes basically variety from the game for those who used EIN as a "game changer" and waited in quests for a good moment to use it.
But now if you change EIN to a simple death spell you have to make it, of course, comparable to other death spells like Mass Frog with a comparable cool down to the number of kills ratio.

You also seemingly dont understand what an easier DC really means, It just only helps for players who dont focus on wisdom or who are newer to the game.
The real power of any ability lies effectively in the cooldown to effect ratio.
If you make a DC with a stupid calculation so you cannot effectively reach the DC you need to make the ability work you basically just only remove that ability from the game with that.
Therefore the DC should be basically removed and replaced with a system where character progression, better items, etc. improve the cooldown to effect ratio and not decide if an ability work at all or not.
This to make the game more beginner friendly and also making the game balance at the end easier.

[Mindos]

• Doing that is taxing on the server every single time it happens.

Keeping it as it is isn't an option anymore; we're trying to find a good, balanced fit. We buffed the DC, we buffed the cooldown, we buffed by removing the need to charge it. At the tradeoff of range and target numbers. Every number of targets it goes up is a quantifiable performance hit on the server.

Get a better server. Period. Full stop. Lynn keeps saying that DDO is in a great place, the future is bright, etc. So what? More people gonna start playing? What happens to these pathetic servers then? And why is this a performance issue now, just like 4 manyshot arrows was before? I don't believe you. We've had epic destinies for how long now? Since before all the server data center moves shenanigans? And now? Now its a performance problem?

How can EIN have been allowed to exist for all these years on OLDER hardware if it was such a problem? If you think about it, EVERYTHING is a performance hit. You technically could say any change you make to anything at all is for performance reasons.

What's the logical endgame here? Decreases over the years instead of more and better? Are we going to be playing a black and white stick figure, changing the game to a text adventure? Will we then be told the combat log cannot handle our stick drawing killing so fast, so mob deaths will be only allowed once a minute? When does it end? When is the company making money and spending that money on better hardware?