2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[lyrecono]

My guess (not 100% sure) is thst it doesn't like the fact thst I'm a wolf and wants me to count as a weapon attack in order to deny that ability to monks. Which is dumb because there's no good reason to keep Monks and Wolves/Bears and giant trees from using that attack

Aahhh, that's what you meant.

[nokowi]

While I agree with your sentiment: charging EIN is not unique tactical play, it's what you do waiting for everyone to get into the raid. And popping in and out of stealth for MtF is not tactics either, it's just annoying.

I'd be interested in seeing some of your play. What server are you on?

[nokowi]

The DDO Developers' seem to be using a different definition of diversity...



Yes, I think they are thinking more on the lines of a 'variety' of different classes and builds. For example Multiclass or classes that wouldn't normally choose or Shadowdancer, or people finding themselves off-destiny and just wanting a stepping stone to another sphere or Density. Rather than focusing upon "unique play style", and Rogue archetype diversity. So it's looking like they were using the term in the loosest sense and not meaning Rogue play style. :-)

Whereas some of the players we asking specific questions about what helps to make Shadowdancer abilities more diverse and unique. For example: some of the responding players were asking for other than; increased SD melee power. They were asking for alteration to stealthy and manipulative deception like techniques, within this thread, subtle roguish tactical stuff, etc. Those questions weren't specifically answered - if I recall correctly.

It's just strange they seek out the least feedback from the area of the game they understand the least.

[DougGlyndwyr]

This intense need to push the monk class down is getting old. In the name of "balance" it seems as if they are trying to make monk just the same as any other pure melee, but not with armour, dodge, or incorp to overcome the cloth armour centered requirement. It seems as if we are approaching the point where the monk should be a free class, and everyone who bought into it should be refunded the cost of monk, for each year they have had it.

Ory's not looking forward to the EiN changes, but might welcome ~10K DDO points...

[Tilomere]

Does Everything is Nothing still cost 50 ki, or will it be able to be used by say, a barbarian with a great axe in medium armor?

[jwelch]

Agreed. Ein should be more powerful than Frog considerably. It should have cooldown of 1 min and also hit at least 5 mobs, though I wouldn't mind the 3 min timer if it impacted all within the new smaller space.


Also one other thing I forgot to mention in my prior list: Core 5 Ubiquity is quite weak. I know you are on limited time, but if you can get to it please buff that core. Tumbling for me is challenging since it takes 2 button keyboard simultaneous mash and I have the other hand on my mouse. So I never really tumble. I seldom see anyone tumble except outside of quests for fun.

Please change it to an action boost or something (for the next 6 seconds targets will be considered sneak attacked) and/or add some passive ability at least to this such as increased ki, dodge cap, mrr cap 10, or something!

So speaking for myself, as a wis build monk, it was almost unheard of that I wouldn't have my EIN recharged well before the timer ran out. If it was actually taxing the game, I understand adjusting the range, but one of the primary benefits of EIN was that it was a room cleaner. Even on higher reaper levels, having a six second mass stun was a huge help to a party that needed a moment to catch its breath. Not everyone just cruises through everything. And for the "room full of evil" in the one Delerium quest, it was a huge benefit. it was a thing of beauty in the "rooms of ogres" section of Slavers.

I don't think the 25 charges actually caused any problems. The cooldown time was sometimes inconvenient, but not too bad. It should however, be at least as effective as mass frog and if you're going to reduce to n enemies affected instead of everything in range (which justified the 5-min timer), then at least jack the DC significantly. With a Wisdom of 90, EIN's DC is 80. If you're going to drastically reduce the effectiveness of that trick, then EIN's DC needs to be on par with at *least* Stunning Fist's, if not Kukan-Do/Tomb of Jade. The DC in the current version is a bit low, but given how it works, acceptable. If you're going to reduce both the range and number of enemies affected, then at least make it work more consistently with a 20 or more point DC boost. Being able to use it more often won't be all that useful if it doesn't work.

[jwelch]

So speaking for myself, as a wis build monk, it was almost unheard of that I wouldn't have my EIN recharged well before the timer ran out. If it was actually taxing the game, I understand adjusting the range, but one of the primary benefits of EIN was that it was a room cleaner. Even on higher reaper levels, having a six second mass stun was a huge help to a party that needed a moment to catch its breath. Not everyone just cruises through everything. And for the "room full of evil" in the one Delerium quest, it was a huge benefit. it was a thing of beauty in the "rooms of ogres" section of Slavers.

I don't think the 25 charges actually caused any problems. The cooldown time was sometimes inconvenient, but not too bad. It should however, be at least as effective as mass frog and if you're going to reduce to n enemies affected instead of everything in range (which justified the 5-min timer), then at least jack the DC significantly. With a Wisdom of 90, EIN's DC is 80. If you're going to drastically reduce the effectiveness of that trick, then EIN's DC needs to be on par with at *least* Stunning Fist's, if not Kukan-Do/Tomb of Jade. The DC in the current version is a bit low, but given how it works, acceptable. If you're going to reduce both the range and number of enemies affected, then at least make it work more consistently with a 20 or more point DC boost. Being able to use it more often won't be all that useful if it doesn't work.

along with the above, if you're going to nerf it that hard, then make it a 1AP ability, not a two.

[Shadow_Jumper]

The problem is that casting still uses the D20 when using DC's. You have people with DC's of 130 and other players of the same level with DC's of 60. You've posted many times on these ED threads that the Magister change is too much, but it really isn't. There are countless players out there that badly need a way to get their DC's up to the point of actually being useable. Playing a wizard that lands 5% of his DC spells is a lesson in frustration and the problem with all the equipment stat inflation is that people lacking the perfect equipment can't play the game. The Magister change is most welcome. People that need DC to be able to successfully cast can use this destiny to finally have a chance to play and people that already land everything because they have incredibly high DC's can play in a different destiny that offers things other than DC's because these players don't have need of any additional DC.

My no Racial PL sorc has no trouble in r10 content, even in sharn. While not 100%, by targeting weak saves on mobs, and using spells like crushing despair you can easily give effective DC casting on a toon without gobs of PLs.

Using your logic, I see boatloads of players that really need a DPS increase because they can’t do anything worthwhile. Let’s please change blitz to +10 MP per stack for those players that can’t build a toon and need to rely on EDs to make them useful.

[jwelch]

My no Racial PL sorc has no trouble in r10 content, even in sharn. While not 100%, by targeting weak saves on mobs, and using spells like crushing despair you can easily give effective DC casting on a toon without gobs of PLs.

Using your logic, I see boatloads of players that really need a DPS increase because they can’t do anything worthwhile. Let’s please change blitz to +10 MP per stack for those players that can’t build a toon and need to rely on EDs to make them useful.

agreed. Nerfing EIN and the fact that stuns don't work against a lot of mob types is going to make being a monk a LOT of work, outside of a bit of splash here and there.

I try to not be cynical, but given that monk is an odd class anyway, I feel making it harder to play well sans uber gear is not a great idea.

[lyrecono]

My no Racial PL sorc has no trouble in r10 content, even in sharn. While not 100%, by targeting weak saves on mobs, and using spells like crushing despair you can easily give effective DC casting on a toon without gobs of PLs.

Using your logic, I see boatloads of players that really need a DPS increase because they can’t do anything worthwhile. Let’s please change blitz to +10 MP per stack for those players that can’t build a toon and need to rely on EDs to make them useful.

My no Racial PL sorc
So, no racial past lives makes you miss out on 5 charisma(3 from the 3 charisma racial past lives and +2 from racial completionist), 3 less dc, yeah, i can see that being less impactull, with this much gear, ship buffs, tomes, class past lives and reaper trees being around, if you can spare the time to debuff to compensate.

If this is so easy then dc point and clicking might need a rebalancing too. XD

Or we could toss non uber toons a bone when grinding past lives off destiny

[slarden]

Shadowform should provide knockdown immunity since it puts you into a floating state. This isn't working currently. Can you please look at this for U43.

[slarden]

Frankly, we are at a point where casting DC needs to go the way of AC. For the longest time every character I made had a 5% chance of being missed due to AC because there were monks with 80 AC that could avoid being hit at all. A 20-point spread either meant the best players were hit only 5% of the time or 90% of the players were hit 95% of the time. The change to AC was great and made it so that everyone could have some defense from AC and no one had perfect defense from AC (or as perfect as it can get given the critical fail rules).

It's time for DC casting to go the same way but with higher minimums. I would say even a naked wizard should land 50% of his DC spells, so the lower limit should be 50% and having 150 DC might give you high 80's perhaps? I'm not sure what the upper limit should be (I don't really have a problem with 95% honestly), but the lower limit needs to be closer to 50%. People that don't gear for DC (or gear and fail) should still be able to land half their spells.

This would be a very bad change. DC casting is all about targeting the right enemies (based on knowledge of saves) and the right spells (where save matches up against enemy low saves). Your proposal would take the skill out of dc casting and remove all incentives for gearing up properly and improving your character. AC is a completely different paradigm.

[Silverleafeon]

Here is how I would help all Epic destinies including the martial sphere which I have not commented upon till now.
(just my opinion, feel free to disagree)



Expand all Epic Destiny Levels from 6 minus 1 xp to 10.

Reset all Epic Destinies upon any form of reincarnation except lesser reincarnation.

Gate the award of Epic Destiny points to 4 per level thru the lesser of

1) Epic Levels gained
or
2) Epic Destiny Levels earned in that Epic Destiny


Reset all Epic Destinies upon implementation.


Launch a Dev explanation campaign explaining that the original Developers never intended to limit epic destinies to level 5.9
Explain to the player base that although this does introduce a nerf to lower epic power, it smooths out the epic destiny power throughout epic leveling.
Explain to the player base that this will award more creativity in new builds and while the transition will be a shock the long term effects should be worthwhile.
Explain to the player base that this is not balancing for reaper (although reaper will absorb possible adjustments to the player's style).

Show the player base examples of how any nerf to playstyle is overcome by level 25.
Explain to the player base that automatically gaining full epic destiny power at level 20 hinders Dev design for expanding Epic Destiny levels beyond the initial limits established when the level cap was 25.

[Tilomere]

This would be a very bad change. DC casting is all about targeting the right enemies (based on knowledge of saves) and the right spells (where save matches up against enemy low saves). Your proposal would take the skill out of dc casting and remove all incentives for gearing up properly and improving your character. AC is a completely different paradigm.

Under his proposal, it would still improve the odds of landing a spell by picking the "right spell" against the right target to hit against a lower "Spell AC (save)."

[LurkingVeteran]

Under his proposal, it would still improve the odds of landing a spell by picking the "right spell" against the right target to hit against a lower "Spell AC (save)."

Agree. Some kind of softening of D20 (mob) spell saves might improve matters. Another option is to turn insta-kills into big single nukes (i.e. like a neg. energy Iceberg). More recent RPG rule sets have moved away from save-or-die type of spells precisely because they are so difficult to balance.

I think Slarden also has a point about the interesting gameplay aspects of targeting weak saves, but only Warlock have some decent options here for IKs. A PM has to overcome those fort saves or be forced to fall back on some rather tedious strategies. The positively broken Mass Frog adds another option, but that's end-game only.

[SC_Macrochaos]

What is this trend of nerfing the monk and monk-like play styles? First the heoic monk and now the epic monk destiny what gives?

[draven1]

Consume & shadow manipulation nerfed. It had 2 min cooltime, now it has 3 min cooltime.

Why do you nerf it when it is very weak so almost nobody use it?

It have been broken from start, so for 8 years. You are fixing its DC, but, nerf on cooltime?

1 min for Consume, 12~18 sec for shadow manipulation would be proper.
(Arcane Tempest from magister have 30-second cooldown, and Dragon Breath from draconic incarnation have 25-second cooldown now, both are AOE, but, shadow manipulation is single target)
And adding "kill switch" for shadow manipulation would be nice. Because sometimes charm a monster would be annoying or block progression of quest.


And cooldown reduction for Shadow training II would be nice to encourage swiftness theme for shadowdancer.

Removing jump and tumble skill penalty in sneak in shadowdancer would be nice, too.
People usually underestimate usefulness of tumble, but, it is very useful if you know how to position yourself while in sneak with tumble. It also fits flavorful theme for shadowdancer very well as it can mimic "shadow jump" in PnP.

[bloodnose13]

could you please make change to how shadow form in shadow dancer looks like, remove the glowing eyes and float effect to make it look distinctly diffrent from palemaster, my assasin got flagged by healer as a palemaster on few occasions already and was not recieving any healing due to that confusion.
and if there are those that are opposed to such change then maybe add it as multiselector or something to give a choice?

[VinoeWhines]

Shadow Dancer should be looked into. Raising the timers on Consume and Shadow Manipulation is a bad idea, the cooldowns are already excessively long and should of had tiers 1 thru 3 to reduce cooldowns for each (2mins/1min/30secs).
Shadow charges was a slight juggle but never too difficult or confusing, and added another management tool that rogues are very use to, when playing this type of character(Non Easy Button playstyle). What others call "confusing or tedious", rogues call "strategy and opportunity."
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Shadowdancer
This tree needed help. It had a lot of cool things in it that were nearly impossible to use (CONSUME HAD BAD TARGETING), either because DC calculations were broken or because you needed Shadow Charges, which were hard to get and even harder to keep. Those are gone now. Cooldowns on some things were adjusted to reflect the fact that you don't need to juggle Shadow Charges anymore, but by and large the whole tree should work a lot better now. There are still a few outstanding things that don't shine (Dark Imbuement, looking at you) but in playtests the new version of Shadowdancer has been viable.

The only thing wrong with Shadow Charges was that they disappeared on rest shrines, which "That was the problem!" Not managing or keeping. All you have to do is "Mark" the target, and anyone that kills it, you would still get the charge, so actually it could be quite easy, if you knew how to group up and mark targets, before someone else final hit/kill.
I would use the "Mark clicky" and try to take out mob myself, but knowing you'll at least get the charge even if you don't get the kill was welcoming enough as a consultation prize as to not getting the kill.

Shadow Lance now adds Assassinate Bonuses to its DC calculation = This is a solid fix.

Shadow Lance now uses the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity Modifiers in its DC calculation = Solid choice.

Shadow Lance now uses full character level in its DC calculation = no problem.

Shadow Lance no longer requires Shadow Charges to blind = That calculation should work with adding DC, but again Shadow Charges should be kept and given higher rewards(Like raising Assassinate DC per charge) if able to maintain them, especially in higher Reaper content DC's

Shadow Lance's Blind is no longer based on chance, but tries to apply on each hit = useful tactic.

Shadow Lance's damage now scales with 400% of the higher of your Melee and Ranged Power = Nice Choice.

Shadow Lance's damage is now (4d8+18)/(6d8+24)/(8d8+30) = wouldn't mind a slightly higher bump.

Shadow Lance's cooldown is now 30/20/10 seconds. = Bingo! This should be the template of Consume and Shadow Manipulation but doubled in cooldowns. (Once again adding Shadow Charges to the Assassinate DC that can be added to calculation of Blinding, and for DC of Consume and Shadow Manipulation.)

Shrouding Strike/Shot no longer mark the target for Shadow Charges; instead, they apply a stack of Improved Destruction. = Should still keep the Shadow Charges for later bonus' or DC calculations in Blinding, Consume, Shadow Manipulation and "last tier tree proc of Special Moment."

Shrouding Strike/Shot now have a 6-second cooldown. = Sounds reasonable.

Consume now adds Assassinate bonuses to its DC calculation = Will help out in DC's but adding Shadow Charges to Assassinate DC would help(Measure the Foe could be extended from just +5 to +12 with 7 Shadow Charges using the MTF calculation while sneaking.

Consume now uses the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity Modifiers in its DC calculation = Fair choice option.

Consume no longer uses Shadow Charges, nor grants Maximum Shadow Charges. = Again keep Shadow Charges as a boost but not a requirement for it to work, therefor those who invest time and strategy in it can raise their DC's by maintaining charges. It allows the best of both worlds, a blanket easy button for the casual rogue(or sneak type player) and a more rewarding tool for the tactical type player, who uses this playstyle and enjoys the challenge of this playstyle, with a solid reward system of difficulty.

Consume now has a 3-minute cooldown. = Should be tiered to 3 cooldowns, with Shadow Charges even lowering more per tier.

Consume should now more consistently pick living enemies to target (and no longer pick doors/barrels/misc non-enemy targets). = This should definitely help in getting mobs, instead of non mobs.

Shadow Manipulation now adds Assassinate bonuses to its DC calculation = Will help but, Assassinate should be a tactic such as Stunning,Tripping for rogues.

Shadow Manipulation now uses the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity Modifiers in its DC calculation. = Better Choice.

Shadow Manipulation no longer uses Shadow Charges, nor grants Maximum Shadow Charges. = Should keep Shadow Charges to raise DC and also help with Cooldowns. Can have a 3 timer cooldown from 3/2/1 mins per tier.

Shadow Manipulation now has a 3-minute cooldown. = Way to much and a big penalty to the already very long timer. Again 3 tier timer per action point spent, and reducing further timer by keeping Shadow Charges.

Shadow Manipulation no longer requires Cloak of Shadow. = Sounds reasonable.

Cloak of Shadows no longer uses Shadow Charges, nor grants Maximum Shadow Charges. = This can be a stand alone with no problem.

Cloak of Shadows no longer requires Shrouding Strike/Shot = As a stand alone would be ok.

Executioner's Strike/Shot now has a 12-second cooldown. = Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't mind it being on a shorter cooldown.

Executioner's Strike/Shot now has a DC of (10 + Character level + INT or DEX mod + Assassinate bonuses) = And adding Shadow Charges to boost the DC would help in higher level/Reaper content.

Executioner's Strike/Shot can now be used while under Antimagic. = Interesting change.

You can now move while using Executioner's Strike/Shot = This can be helpful for sure.

Dark Imbuement no longer uses Dark Imbuement Charges, and just functions on a cooldown. = This top end choice should be fixed as it's damage is very low, and should add blindness procs to all mobs in a radius, should more likely be:
For 30 seconds, you deal an extra (X)d(x) Shadow Damage; (should be on par with other ED's Epic Moment Damage)For Melee should drop a blindness bomb with bonus of Assassinate DC and range a exploding blindness proc as well.

Dark Imbuement now has a 2-minute cooldown. = If proposed fixes to damage and blindess, it would be welcomed.

Dark Imbuement now costs 1AP. = Thanks.

Dark Imbuement no longer requires Shadow Form. = Will help on thin strapped ED points to choose from.

Shadow Form no longer uses Shadow Charges, nor grants Maximum Shadow Charges. = Interesting, but don't loose the Shadow Charges as it can help with the DC's for other things in this Epic Destiny Tree, that is already on the lower end.

Shadow Form's tooltip now clarifies that it is considered a Major Form. = Don't let this conflict with other forms that are being Twisted in.

Shadow Form now costs 1AP. = Salute.

Untouchable now passively grants 3% Dodge and +1 Critical Damage Multiplier on rolls of 19-20. = What if it raises the Dodge cap also, thank you.

And last but not least: Innate Abilities
Shadow Mastery: Passive Bonus: You now have Evasion. In addition, when you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, granting it 5% vulnerability to physical damage and removing its immunity to sneak attack for a short duration, if applicable (debuff lasts 12 seconds DDO Forums). = How about those with Improved Evasion get granted, "You now don't fail a Reflex save on a Natural roll of one." Like other Destinies get with Will saves on their first tier tree.

Thanks again for your time in even considering making fixes on this great game.
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Consume & shadow manipulation nerfed. It had 2 min cooltime, now it has 3 min cooltime.

Why do you nerf it when it is very weak so almost nobody use it?

It have been broken from start, so for 8 years. You are fixing its DC, but, nerf on cooltime?

1 min for Consume, 12~18 sec for shadow manipulation would be proper.
(Arcane Tempest from magister have 30-second cooldown, and Dragon Breath from draconic incarnation have 25-second cooldown now, both are AOE, but, shadow manipulation is single target)
And adding "kill switch" for shadow manipulation would be nice. Because sometimes charm a monster would be annoying or block progression of quest.


And cooldown reduction for Shadow training II would be nice to encourage swiftness theme for shadowdancer.

Removing jump and tumble skill penalty in sneak in shadowdancer would be nice, too.
People usually underestimate usefulness of tumble, but, it is very useful if you know how to position yourself while in sneak with tumble. It also fits flavorful theme for shadowdancer very well as it can mimic "shadow jump" in PnP.

Interesting cooldown times for Consume and Shadow Manipulation. "Kill Switch" though helpful, is part of the price you pay to manipulate something. I could see it added, if the timer was extended based on how high your Assasinate DC was added to the timer on mob being manipulated. But in higher level/Reaper content it goes away(broken/saved) alot faster.
Shadow Training II cooldown would be nice. I believe the penalty to Jump and Tumble are removed when in Shadow Form, or that's what it said it did, Again Rogue tactic of casting Jump on yourself would help mitigate the penalty, just another example of how Rogues would use game tactics to help overcome limitations placed on us.

[Pnumbra]

Now that I have spent time with the new SD tree, I think a few adjustment are in order.

Consume: 3 minute timer is excessive. 1 minute timer would better.

Dark Imbuement: 3 minute timer also excessive. 1 minute would also be better.

Shadow Form: the wispy black smoke is nice, but would remove the awkward levitation affect. Seems out of place.

Posion Strikes: Why only INT for DC? All other powers use either DEX or INT. The DC is also weak...only the Crit attack is moderately useful in lower epics.

In addition, why no support for short swords in this tree - as a finesse type weapon?

Shiv has a 12-second cool down timer and Poison Strikes has a 6-second cool down timer, yet Shiv seems to be build to support Poison Strike. Isn't this backwards? Should both of them have a 6-second cool down timer?