2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[blerkington]

While I appreciate the effort you've made to improve Shadowdancer I do not think you are going about it the right way.

Firstly, you are adding way too much power again, and secondly you are concentrating almost all of it in one part of the tree. That will pretty much guarantee a set specification for people using that ED that is leagues ahead of others. Is this a desirable outcome?

What I think you should do (apart from fixing bugs and making the left side less clunky to use) is look at how you can adjust the cores to support more build diversity and reduce cooldowns for some of the active abilities many of which are quite weak relative to how often they can be used.

This just seems like more pigeon-holing and unnecessary power creep to me. It also suggests a lack of understanding of just how effective melee rogues are right now and what makes them that way.

Thanks.

[Cordovan]

Hi,
true it is a good ED Tree, one thing to consider tho:

Blitz is quite easy to keep active and maxed with Monks, SWF or TWF Style Builds while Two Handed Fighting Style Builds sometimes even loose it while standing in the middle of a big mob and hitting them like crazy. That is cuz the Two Handed Style Builds do much fewer attacks per time than those Monk/SWF/TWF but the chance to gain a stack is also 10%. That is very frustrating if you do hit mob after mob and loose your Blitz anyway, while other builds can keep it active quite easily in the same situation. Maybe you can change the chance to gain a stack of Blitz for Two Handed Fighting to 20% or change something else to make it somewhat even for fast attacking and low damage builds compared to the slow attacking and high damage Two Handed Fighting Builds.

tyvm

I just wanted to say that we are aware of your concern about the number of attacks over time with Two-Handed fighting in particular, and are looking into some possible improvements. It's a bit early to provider further detail, however.

[QuantumFX]

Generically:
- All the stat enhancements need to become non-stacking and dependent on the lower tiers to advance up the chain. That way someone could twist a single +4 to a stat. And, no, don't give me that "Ohmahgerd that would be too powerful!1!" nonsense when there are tier 3 twists that are way more powerful.

• Ki actives get Stunning bonuses added to their DC calculations

Does this apply to Everything is Nothing as well?

• A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.

Does this mean you're going to give heroic handwrap monks their +W's back? If not, you're still failing at balancing the classes.

• Shadow Lance now uses the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity Modifiers in its DC calculation
• Consume now uses the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity Modifiers in its DC calculation
• Shadow Manipulation now uses the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity Modifiers in its DC calculation.
• Executioner's Strike/Shot now has a DC of (10 + Character level + INT or DEX mod + Assassinate bonuses)

All of these should be "Highest of DEX, INT, or WIS mod".

Shadowdancer abilities that aren't mentioned:

• Stat bonuses need to be a choice of DEX< INT or WIS.
• Shadow Mastery: This ability needs to give a bonus for builds that already have Evasion. Preferably, "Grant Improved Evasion to builds that already have evasion", and "Grant the 'Can't fail reflex saves on a 1' to builds that have Improved Evasion."

[Harkym]

Combat Brute's Helplessness damage is now 15%.

So, boost the sorcs do to 30% more damage on crits wich already are 100% chance and lower the HELPLESS damage when during ACTION BOOSTS on melees sounds like a good idea for you? Why dont u just say u guys dont want wolves in the game anymore?

Thats not ballance, there will be only sorcs in the game and you know it.

[Jandric]

So, boost the sorcs do to 30% more damage on crits wich already are 100% chance and lower the HELPLESS damage when during ACTION BOOSTS on melees sounds like a good idea for you? Why dont u just say u guys dont want wolves in the game anymore?

Thats not ballance, there will be only sorcs in the game and you know it.

The balance across all classes was one of the big reasons I requested them to forego or at least tone down the nerf earlier in this thread.

[0ldschool]

Probably beyond the scope of the changes that can be made but IMO this would be a lot cool if it was the same thing as Dance of Death (Tempest T5) but hit 6 targets instead of 4 since its and Epic ability not heroic. (Probably need to share a cooldown time between the two abilities)

Dark Imbuement is just bad and needs to go.

I thought a little bit more about what is missing from SD. The core idea of the ED is sneak attack. Yet the ED does very little to help proc sneak attack. I had a horrible time slotting Improved Deception, and the things that helped me get SA were Pin from Shiradi and Blinding on my TF GxB. Nothing from SD other than the removing SA immunity on 20 that the Shadow Mastery gives you.

You know what’s really important to me, even at cap, for SA proc? Assassin’s Trick. This lowly Rogue level 6 enhancement from Assassin tree gives me the only targeted SA immunity removal I have. It seems that a souped up Assassin’s Trick might be just the thing for the Epic Moment. So if you are not game for giving SD a burst DPS option like Shiradi is being given, how about..

In addition to 2 or 3 SA die per level of SD instead of 1, let me propose something like this for an Epic Moment:

Death from the Shadows – Active Ability: (cooldown: 5 minutes) For 30 seconds, gain +10 sneak attack die and +20 RP/MP. In addition, all targets successfully hit will have sneak attack immunity removed and be subject to sneak attack damage.

This could at least let SD get somewhere in the remote vicinity of LD and FoTW DPS for sneak attackers. In fact, it probably still falls well short. Thoughts?

[Pilgrim1]

I have 3 general issues that I think would change epic destinies for the better:

(1) expand the +1 stat bonuses to all 6 stats.
This enables toon that the destines are not build for to still use that destiny to some effect. It will make leveling off destinies slightly less painful. In addition it increases the different character builds available to take advantage of a destiny like this. Since destinies are designed to be used by many different builds this will only increase the diversity available.

(2) reduce the cost of +1 stats bonuses to 1 AP.
When Epic destinies where reduces most stats maxed out at ~60-70. Today the max is well over 130 for some stats. Thus the value of increasing stats has reduced, with the exception of characters who are defined by abilities on the d20 scale (like DC's). In addition since you are re-vamping and improving the existing destinies this will increase the number of action points stat hungry characters have to spend into the new toys and make for a more enjoyable experience.

(3) Add in base-line amounts of melee and ranged power to all destinies.
Being a physical damage toon in a destiny that has no melee or ranged power is really a painful process. Allowing at least some melee/ranged power into off destinies will make the leveling experience more enjoyable and might lead to interesting build options.

I will give destiny specific feedback in later posts.

[GramercyRiff]

I have 3 general issues that I think would change epic destinies for the better:

(1) expand the +1 stat bonuses to all 6 stats.
This enables toon that the destines are not build for to still use that destiny to some effect. It will make leveling off destinies slightly less painful. In addition it increases the different character builds available to take advantage of a destiny like this. Since destinies are designed to be used by many different builds this will only increase the diversity available.

(2) reduce the cost of +1 stats bonuses to 1 AP.
When Epic destinies where reduces most stats maxed out at ~60-70. Today the max is well over 130 for some stats. Thus the value of increasing stats has reduced, with the exception of characters who are defined by abilities on the d20 scale (like DC's). In addition since you are re-vamping and improving the existing destinies this will increase the number of action points stat hungry characters have to spend into the new toys and make for a more enjoyable experience.

(3) Add in base-line amounts of melee and ranged power to all destinies.
Being a physical damage toon in a destiny that has no melee or ranged power is really a painful process. Allowing at least some melee/ranged power into off destinies will make the leveling experience more enjoyable and might lead to interesting build options.

I will give destiny specific feedback in later posts.

I like 2 and 3, but 1 has always been a thing that annoyed me about EDs. The selector for attributes really needs to offer all 6 in all EDs, especially in a game that has attributes other than STR and DEX for attacks.

[whoolsey]

glad to see that the proc rate due to the low amount of attacks on 2hf is noticed, this ruins adrenaline and blitz

[Grailhawk]

Dark Imbuement is just bad and needs to go.

I thought a little bit more about what is missing from SD. The core idea of the ED is sneak attack. Yet the ED does very little to help proc sneak attack. I had a horrible time slotting Improved Deception, and the things that helped me get SA were Pin from Shiradi and Blinding on my TF GxB. Nothing from SD other than the removing SA immunity on 20 that the Shadow Mastery gives you.

You know what’s really important to me, even at cap, for SA proc? Assassin’s Trick. This lowly Rogue level 6 enhancement from Assassin tree gives me the only targeted SA immunity removal I have. It seems that a souped up Assassin’s Trick might be just the thing for the Epic Moment. So if you are not game for giving SD a burst DPS option like Shiradi is being given, how about..

In addition to 2 or 3 SA die per level of SD instead of 1, let me propose something like this for an Epic Moment:

Death from the Shadows – Active Ability: (cooldown: 5 minutes) For 30 seconds, gain +10 sneak attack die and +20 RP/MP. In addition, all targets successfully hit will have sneak attack immunity removed and be subject to sneak attack damage.

This could at least let SD get somewhere in the remote vicinity of LD and FoTW DPS for sneak attackers. In fact, it probably still falls well short. Thoughts?

Since you quoted me and ended with thoughts.

• I think Shadowdance on live now is only behind LD because of Combat Brute's helpless damage (being nerfed yay!) and Action Hero's (shouldn't be nerfed at this time but may need to be some day) 100% action boost uptime.
• I think that Action Hero > Shadowdancer with proposed changes, but It might be close enough that you can make an argument for it do to annoying Blitz mechanics
• Shadow Lance changes will go a long way in helping rogues make thing SA vulnerable (assuming this isn't like Falconry AOE blind and it doesn't make them SA vulnerable unlike every other source of blind I've seen in the game).

I would add Improved Invisibility to your epic moment for flavor reason.

[0ldschool]

Since you quoted me and ended with thoughts.

• I think Shadowdance on live now is only behind LD because of Combat Brute's helpless damage (being nerfed yay!) and Action Hero's (shouldn't be nerfed at this time but may need to be some day) 100% action boost uptime.
• I think that Action Hero > Shadowdancer with proposed changes, but It might be close enough that you can make an argument for it do to annoying Blitz mechanics
• Shadow Lance changes will go a long way in helping rogues make thing SA vulnerable (assuming this isn't like Falconry AOE blind and it doesn't make them SA vulnerable unlike every other source of blind I've seen in the game).

I would add Improved Invisibility to your epic moment for flavor reason.

Thanks for the thoughts! I like your idea of Improved Invis, though honestly I'd prefer to just cut to the chase and make it Displacement for 30 seconds.

So I glossed over Shadow Lance, and went back to read it after your comment. This is now a blind proc on a single target once every 10 seconds? That sounds great, but the fact that it has a save is very worrisome. Blinding Fear on TF has no save. Improved Deception has no save. Giving Shadow Lance a save immediately makes me worry that it will be useless at cap, or if not now then soon. I also have no investment in Assassinate, and that is now directly tied to the success of Shadow Lance.

[TackW5]

While you are tweaking, could we get handwraps added to the list of weapons that work with Lightning Mace or Anvil of Thunder?

[peng]

Gmof:

• Does the scattering of petals mrr bypass cap? If not, it should
• Can you make the new t2 attack a multiselector light/dark strike?
• Maybe make the stance themed abilities double if in the correct stance?
• Similarly, could dance of flowers add another 0.5[w] if centered (ie 0.25/0.5/1 uncentered, 0.75/1/1.5 centered)?

Overall, I like the changes.

[Grailhawk]

Thanks for the thoughts! I like your idea of Improved Invis, though honestly I'd prefer to just cut to the chase and make it Displacement for 30 seconds.

So I glossed over Shadow Lance, and went back to read it after your comment. This is now a blind proc on a single target once every 10 seconds? That sounds great, but the fact that it has a save is very worrisome. Blinding Fear on TF has no save. Improved Deception has no save. Giving Shadow Lance a save immediately makes me worry that it will be useless at cap, or if not now then soon. I also have no investment in Assassinate, and that is now directly tied to the success of Shadow Lance.

Last time I used Shadow Lance was probably 2013-2014 for some reason I'm remembering it having an AOE or at least the animation was an AOE with the 3 daggers flying out in a cone shape. I'll test this once the changes are on Lamania to see if my memory is just way off.

[JOTMON]

Grandmaster of Flowers
This tree needed a lot of love. It was only OK for Monks, and really not-great for everyone else. There's now a fair bit of twist fodder in here, and fewer things require strict centering. Top-tier actives became massively more powerful with the changes, so they were scaled back somewhat to reflect being able to use them much more often.

• Inner Focus and Wholeness of Spirit now allow for movement during use
• Wholeness of Spirit has its cooldown reduced to 2 minutes
• Ki actives (the left column) now scale with the higher of Melee or Ranged Power
• Ki actives get Stunning bonuses added to their DC calculations
• Ki actives can now be used under Antimagic, as they are not spells
• Ki actives are no longer linked in a line
• Lily Petal and Orchid Blossom now care about levels 26-30 in terms of scaling with character level (was previously capping at 25)
• Lily Petal now grants 5 Ki instead of costing Ki
• A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds.
  
  • A Scattering of Petals also reduces enemy Fortification by 200% for 12 seconds, and affected creatures lose immunity to Sneak Attack for that duration.
  • A Scattering of Petals now has a detect the same size as Drifting Lotus (i.e. twice as large).
  • A Scattering of Petals now has a 90 second cooldown.
  
  
• A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.
• Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement)
• Hail of Blows now adds +3 melee damage in addition to its doublestrike
• Walking with Waves no longer requires Ocean stance for its Dodge bonus
• Standing with Stone no longer requires Mountain Stance for its PRR.
• Dancing with Flame no longer requires Sun Stance for its (w) bonus.
• Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
  
  • Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently.
  
  
• NEW: T2: The Flower's Thorn: +3[w] attack. 6 second cooldown. Does not require Centering. Has cool petal FX. (1 Rank, 1AP)
• NEW: T5: Devastating Critical (+1 Critical Multiplier on a 19-20) (1 Rank, 1AP)

Doesn't look like its love you are giving..
[*]Ki actives can now be used under Anti-magic, as they are not spells
~yes, KI is not a spell ability.. this should have been a fix 5 years ago..

[*]A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds...with a 90 second cooldown...
~erm.. monks wear robes +MRR whats that going to do for them... and 12 seconds out of every 1.5minutes... pft… they are already capped and even if it stacked its not a good 'benefit'
.. Its a T6 at least give it a passive stacking ghostly or ethereal, or displacement... something that actually benefits the epic level monk in robes..

[*]A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.
~so a nerf to the centered monks... why not keep the centered monk bonus and lesser bonus for non-centered.

[*]Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement) / and other stances..
~so a twist for everyone and no improvement for actually being a centered monk.

[*]Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies.
~so effectively a nerf.. went from being able to clear a large area and save the day to... ***... I can understand the AOE reduction.. but 4 mobs and a 3 minute cooldown...
what happens when reds are in the midst of this... fail/fail/fail/fail/timer...

[lyrecono]

???????????

Legendary Dreadnought
This Destiny is very good in its current incarnation. We opened up some of the restrictiveness of the two attacks and fixed an ability that did nothing/wasn't good. For balance vs. other destinies, we did diminish some of their damage vs. Helpless targets only.

Momentum Swing and Lay Waste no longer require Power Attack to be active to use.no, just no, so many people have switched to precision for the fort bypass, bonus to hit and the redonculess AC in endgame high reaper mobs, what use does power attack have now? a lonesome barb with power attack enh? bad call

Lay Waste now adds Trip Bonuses to its DC. about time, or 7 years late, anyway, why not give tantrum this treatment?


Combat Brute's Helplessness damage is now 15%.

what is wrong here?
You turn ddo into a game of instakill tag, make mobs hit so hard that melee has no other choice but to hit stuff that is crowd controlled, turning it into a no risk beatdown, a boring slog, this will make it worse, it will take even longer.
Also, due to how the community works, party leaders will opt for the optimum party set up, aka no melee. a couple of ranged toons will be more effective then 2 melees and a healer, assuming you can find a capable healer.
This game is getting more boring with every update, mobs get more damage output and more hp (and reaper makes that worse), people who play real melees, those that build for dps, actual dps, so no instakill shenanigans, suffer.

back in the day, there was a balance, a dps melee could kill a mob before it killed him, why change that?
Why force melees to play whack a mole with held mobs that give the same excitement as beating down lamania testing kobolds?

[Marten]

Hello! This is an early look at the Epic Destiny Pass currently slated for Update 43.

Here are the 3 things you can consider before you speak.

1. Is this true? Before you speak and utter the words you have in your mind, ASK yourself first if this is true? Maybe you have heard something, news or humor ,or someone told you an information,you have to examine if it is true. Is their a valid proof to consider that it is real or fact? Before you believe something and transfer that information you have to investigate the bases of that information.
2. Is this good? Before expressing your thoughts, ask also this question. ” Is this good or bad? Is this positive or negative? What will be the effect of these words to someone? Is this uplifting others or breaking them? If you think it is negative, it will discourage people or hurt them and there is no good benefit, it is better to keep mouth shut.
3. Is this necessary? Another question you consider before speaking is ” Is it needed or necessary to say these words and thoughts? If it doesn’t benefit to you or to others, better don’t speak. Unless you know it will strengthen or encourage other people. In this way, both of you will reap positive in your life.

Yes, sometimes we are offended by others and the normal reaction of most people who are not aware is to take revenge and hurt them back by uttering bad words. But if you are aware the effect of words in your life and to someone listening. Next time you will be careful and evaluate first your words before speaking.

I try my best to live by the above three rules of speaking to others. Heck, just this week I have been making an exerted effort to instill this to both my preteen and teen aged children. The hardest part in explaining this to them is where the line is drawn between speaking out and speaking up. Sometime you have to make a stand for yourself and others when a wrong is taking place and the "Is this good" rule has to be tweaked, and sometimes, sadly, even ignored.

I have over the years tried to only post when I felt I had something positive to add, and I think my creation date and number of posts speak for themselves.

I have been playing the monk class, especially a light monk, since way before they were cool and rolling a 20 on a Void Strike was the only thing cool to look forward to in a fight. People wouldn't group a monk unless the lfm had been up for over 5 minutes an no other class was asking to join. Monks were only allowed in raids for their earth-positive-earth (1 minute stun immunity) and water-positive-water (1 minute mana usage buff). Dark monks? Played only for flavor or if you hated yourself that much.

I really think that the Devs forget what the monk class and old school players have gone through just to be reasonably functional. How much effort and creativity has been put into making this borked¹ class not just fun, but useful. Every time monks start to pull even in a play style, the "squeaky-wheel" side of the player base on the forums that thinks that monks should only be for splashing and not a fully functional and meaningful pure class start their chattering.

Monk stunning becomes meaningful, nerfed.
Monk Quivering Palm becomes meaningful, nerfed into a "use until it works" skill because that is what monks do, "spray and pray" their punches.²
Monks almost being on par as a tank, nerfed.
Monk DPS approaches something useful, nerfed.³

And Now?!
Monk ED "tree needed a lot of love. It was only OK for Monks, and really not-great for everyone else." Translation: Anything a monk can have to boost DPS, everyone can now have and oh by the way, this gives us an excuse to nerf them too.
Monk EIN, maybe the only reason to take the tree, nerfed. Reason? "...for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently." I would love to see the proof that it caused a significant tax on the game, really, show me the proof. If anything it was used at points where the game would start lagging before use due to mob population and upon use would relieve said lag issue. So, calling BS on this.

This in no way "helps" monks and is yet more proof that if the player base of monks does not stand up for itself and be louder than the squeaky-wheel, anti-monk, chattering class that we will get nerfed back into uselessness by the Devs.

@Steelstar, you can do better! May be start out by asking yourself why even many monks don't use the ED designed for them. Figure out how to make the ED useful to others while also helping the monk class. Put EIN on a timer, but drop the other purposed changes to this iconic monk skill, period.

I was just about to drop another large amount of money on the game. That will now be postponed as your changes will now affect if that happens.

I have in the past tried to speak with sound reasoning and measured tone. Let me be clear, this time I will be speaking with my wallet and feet. Continue to nerf monks at the risk of losing one more long time customer.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++

¹ bork /bôrk/ - verb - past tense: borked; past participle: borked - [to] obstruct (someone...) through systematic defamation or vilification.

² If it is not clear that this is said in festering amounts of irony, this is to make it clear it was.

³ Changes made, if I am to believe my sources, because one monk was over performing. One! And the facts that this monk was using bugs to stack items and have an extra feat was completely ignored. Now, even after that farce you purpose to take even more [W] DPS from monks and as an extra slap in the face give the same amount to any DPS class that wants it?!

[Pilgrim1]

A couple of things that jump out at me in no particular order:

(1) LD provides upto 82 ranged power. As well as many other benefits. I think the most you can get is 24 in another destiny. Until this difference is mediated there will be no one playing ranged toons in any destiny other than LD. This is the key aspect to get ranged toons out of LD.

(2) Assassinate is quite a bit behind other abilities in terms of DC. Is just adding assassinate to the DC's enough make them viable? consider adding assassinate bonuses in the cores.

(3) I really liked everything is nothing's ability to wipe a room. Its the signature amazing ability of the destiny. How about instead of reducing it to 4 mobs you change it to a 1/rest type of thing. If the issue is server load that would help reduce it.

(4) Overall I approve of the increase's to DC's so that the abilities are usable. That said, i would take a hard look at various abilities with DC's and ask if they even need to have a DC aspect to them. For example, does shadow lance really need a DC check?

[Akoriv]

Grandmaster of Flowers
This tree needed a lot of love. It was only OK for Monks, and really not-great for everyone else. There's now a fair bit of twist fodder in here, and fewer things require strict centering. Top-tier actives became massively more powerful with the changes, so they were scaled back somewhat to reflect being able to use them much more often.

• Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement)
• Walking with Waves no longer requires Ocean stance for its Dodge bonus
• Standing with Stone no longer requires Mountain Stance for its PRR.
• Dancing with Flame no longer requires Sun Stance for its (w) bonus.

With these 4 items, instead of just making all their bonuses always on, could you leave the stance requirement on the parts of the abilities that have them, and combine them ALL into one toggle that gives its bonus based on the stance you are in?
You already do a number of "based on stance" bonus effects for monks, so why not do the same here?

I imagine some people don't like the way monks only get certain effects in certain stances, but with the way the monk class is set up, it really fits the monk thematically.
After all, this is really a monk focused destiny, and GMoF was the title of the supreme monk in the campaign back when it first came out in AD&D.

[Paisheng]

I like most of your changes, but I have to ask again if you will address what many monks have noticed, a serious reduction to the very Primo ability of EIN -- how can a level 28 epic feat, frog as the example, kill more things (6) than the nerf of EIN to 4 and Frog has a one minute timer and EIN has a 3 minute timer?

So anyone (who earned the Destiny) can take Frog and wipe out potentially 6 monsters, but monks and other melees who elect this destiny have to limit themselves to GMOF and find that their greatest tier 6 power is less than this. And they have to wait considerably longer to use it again.

That is a bit humbling when compared to the other melee power tier 6 capstones such as Blitz from LD, Tree Form, etc. They could Blitz and take the more powerful EIN (Frog) too.

Please take this into consideration and address that the Monk's best ki ability will have to bow down to every Frogger. Ribbit.