2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[btolson]

Also, please make all of the magical damage in LD scale with some % of MP (maybe less than 100), same as Strike Down in DC is getting. 100 damage from Volcano's Edge that scales with nothing ever is not very attractive.

[Mindos]

The EiN lag or Archon lag? Hard for players to accept at face value as we can't see it.

J1NG

Did you know the Spectral shooter runearm makes it own light? I tried it out in Rainbow, and it lit things up nicely.

[Vish]

I mean, should it?

Woman overboard

[guzzlr]

Sadly, no, pressing the button EiN actually just causes lag

Like J1NG says after this quote, this part is hard for people to agree with. We don't see it. Doesn't matter that we have been told for years to stop playing certain ways. Stop gathering up big packs of baddies and killing them all off with a push of a button (DA). EiN seems to reward this behavior (as do a few other abilities). But in all of the debate we seem to be creating more noise that is drowning out the message. In one model of communication it's basically broke down as: you have the Sender, the Receiver, and everything thing that gets in the way of those two is Noise. Let's try to cut out some noise.

1. EiN currently causes lag (is it the number of mobs that causes the lag, the killing of the mobs, or the stun effect - likely all three together).
2. Devs thought players liked the ability to kill mobs using Everything is nothing.
3. Players actually seem to like that EiN gives them the ability to control the situation (this is very monk-like in its thought process - I mean monks are tacticians and try to control the flow of combat).
4. Nobody like nerfs.
5. There are two design philosophies currently under discussion re Epic Destinies.
   
   1. Eds are a way to give players an alternative style of playing their character; a chance to try something a bit different than the quintessential <insert class>.
   2. Eds are the best way to achieve the quintessential <insert class>.

So...

1. Lag can be reduced by reducing the number of targets that EiN deals with.
2. Kill X (currently 4) baddies (make sure you know how the targeting is going to work here. If EiN can't affect that mob, don't count it against the total).
3. Come up with a solution that allows monks to help regain control of the combat (an "oh shoot" button), but that doesn't lend itself to gathering up piles of baddies and hitting the button once or twice per quest. Bards do this by fascinating them (does this cause insane server lag?). Is this a tool that could be used by monks (no, I am not saying monks get Fascinate, but can you leverage the system that bards use to get a similar result for monks). What can you do to continue to give monks that chance to save the day? What about white dotting the bad guys back to their starting location? Does this cause insane server lag (if so, we have another set of major problems to deal with ). White dotting them back does seem like a very Everything is Nothing ability...
4. Not much else to say here, we all know a nerf when we feel it.
5. It will be hard to strike a balance between these two things. It might be that allowing off destiny xp gain is a way to make headway here?

[lyrecono]

I doubt it, honestly. I think there are a lot of people right now that are sick of LD and want something new, and I have a hunch our current trajectory will put us past that goal post. Worst case scenario, we can keep making adjustments when these go to preview. I can say from firsthand experience, though, holy hell the EDs actually working and not breaking and stopping your movement and giving unrelated bonuses to stats that don't matter is HUGE. It's like a whole new game. Be hype

Sick of LD? No, more disapointed by all the others, mostly due to stuff unrelated to destinies.
2hfis broken and a lot of stuff that procs on hit, crit or vorpal is wasted, it just doesn't hapen often enough. Glancing blows and cleaves, wich we used as a workaround for the poor attack speed don't help us keep blitz or adrenaline up, especially with a unch of instakillers in the party.
Double strike on items is therefor such a joke. Remember the bloodrage chrism (trinket, part of the medium armor set) from the baba raid? It seems geared towards 2hf but one of it's enh is stuffed with a 10% profane doublestrike when fighting 2handed, wich doesn't work. 2hf doesn't proc doublestrike on glancing blows and cleaves the same way double strike does work on swf and 2wf.

For many of us 2hf melees, esp barbarians the ED changes kinda feel meh, LD is still the most consistant dps due to the melee power and not being reliant on a recharge mechanic.

The changes towards power attack don't surprice me though, 90+% of non barb use presision because enemy ac and fort is through the roof, the only reason some barbs don't use it because they can't rage or loose the stance, not for the paultry +3PA in the enh.
Since a lot of melees can use wis, in, dex or cha to influence their hit and damage, there is now less need to invest in str for power attack.

So with all of this in mind, where is the trade off?
A 2hf barb going full str gives up clickies, spellcasting, selfbuffing using wands&scrolls, all for:
Power Attack that gives less dps then presision,
4X 2hf feats that don't give damage in reaper, don't crit, don't benefit from doublestrike and don't help charge ED moments,
A slow attack rate where doublestrike doesn't work on cleaves,
This all on a class designed all around 2hf dps, yet is the worst melee dps out there, where is the trade off?
They can't safely shoot or cast from a distance either.
Now i see all these changes in the ED's and i'm like, LD nerfed, fury still useless, the rest not measuring up to LD.
Why play 2hf? Where is the trade off for going all out 2hf?

And the disconect doesn't end there.
Looking at the newely suggestedepic past life, +2 to hit and +2 to damage with a 2hander for a total of +6/+6 with 3 lives, how does that measure up with self healing or colors of the queen? More dps and healing (high hamp on barb).

My two cents;

If casters, who were already in a good spot, get an ~8-10% DC increase because of a few people complaining that their Finger of Death didn’t work, and were too lazy to try a Hold Mass Monster, then ANY nerf is unjustified to other builds. Restore Combat Brute and bring the other EDs up to LD instead of nerfing melee.

+1

[Xgya]

Like J1NG says after this quote, this part is hard for people to agree with. We don't see it. Doesn't matter that we have been told for years to stop playing certain ways. Stop gathering up big packs of baddies and killing them all off with a push of a button (DA). EiN seems to reward this behavior (as do a few other abilities). But in all of the debate we seem to be creating more noise that is drowning out the message. In one model of communication it's basically broke down as: you have the Sender, the Receiver, and everything thing that gets in the way of those two is Noise. Let's try to cut out some noise.

1. EiN currently causes lag (is it the number of mobs that causes the lag, the killing of the mobs, or the stun effect - likely all three together).
2. Devs thought players liked the ability to kill mobs using Everything is nothing.
3. Players actually seem to like that EiN gives them the ability to control the situation (this is very monk-like in its thought process - I mean monks are tacticians and try to control the flow of combat).
4. Nobody like nerfs.
5. There are two design philosophies currently under discussion re Epic Destinies.
   
   1. Eds are a way to give players an alternative style of playing their character; a chance to try something a bit different than the quintessential <insert class>.
   2. Eds are the best way to achieve the quintessential <insert class>.

So...

1. Lag can be reduced by reducing the number of targets that EiN deals with.
2. Kill X (currently 4) baddies (make sure you know how the targeting is going to work here. If EiN can't affect that mob, don't count it against the total).
3. Come up with a solution that allows monks to help regain control of the combat (an "oh shoot" button), but that doesn't lend itself to gathering up piles of baddies and hitting the button once or twice per quest. Bards do this by fascinating them (does this cause insane server lag?). Is this a tool that could be used by monks (no, I am not saying monks get Fascinate, but can you leverage the system that bards use to get a similar result for monks). What can you do to continue to give monks that chance to save the day? What about white dotting the bad guys back to their starting location? Does this cause insane server lag (if so, we have another set of major problems to deal with ). White dotting them back does seem like a very Everything is Nothing ability...
4. Not much else to say here, we all know a nerf when we feel it.
5. It will be hard to strike a balance between these two things. It might be that allowing off destiny xp gain is a way to make headway here?

If I had to guess, I think the number of mobs hit doesn't cause as much lag as the ability itself encourages gathering a lot of mobs together before using it as it currently is, which does most undoubtedly cause lag.
Lowering the number of mobs affected means people that try using it that way will die, which reduces the amount of pathing those monsters will have to calculate.

[Komradkillingmachine]

Now, if you can actually tell me what attack/action performs the single jump kick in the air (that is seen during character creation, looks like you're doing the splits in the air), that might be more interesting to me, because I haven't been able to get that attack/action to happen at all even after going through all the attacks a monk can execute. Currently choreographing stuff in DDO, but can't find this animation to make things look good enough.

J1NG

Not a monk attack at all, surprisingly. It's basic sunder and improved sunder. Enjoy.

[Dark_Helmet]

Heh, I suppose turnabout is fair play :P

In a perfect world (or at least my perfect world), the Destinies aren't just more of your base class - they're the extra little spice on top of your 1-20 build. Gmof shouldn't be "the last 25% of your monk build," gmof should be one of several choices to put that last bit of sauce on top of your monk build. Ideally, epics let you go wild with crazy combos and epic abilities without the worry that "ugh, everything I try is either literally broken (looking at you fatesinger) or does negative zero damage" and then you just end up in LD on your monk being sad.

I guess we have a totally different history in the development of the Monk for DDO. Monk is a class AND a play style. From handwraps to Ki, it is different.

In the History of AD&D Grandmaster of Flowers always was and will be Monk. I feel like you are Darth Vader saying "It is your destiny" and we don't want to go there. We hope you leave the dark side on this.

[J-mann]

I doubt it, honestly. I think there are a lot of people right now that are sick of LD and want something new, and I have a hunch our current trajectory will put us past that goal post. Worst case scenario, we can keep making adjustments when these go to preview. I can say from firsthand experience, though, holy hell the EDs actually working and not breaking and stopping your movement and giving unrelated bonuses to stats that don't matter is HUGE. It's like a whole new game. Be hype

Im sorry, but most of these changes are still not likely to push weapon users out of LD, though SD is getting close for some builds. As for SD, can we get some changes to dark imbuement? At least let the damage scale with MP/RP? Also the cd for shadow manipulation seems a little extreme for what amounts to a st ik, no? Also some scaling for cloak of shadows so its not useless?

As for LD, could we change the recharge mechanic for momentum swing and lay waste? I frequently get the oh it recharged... psych effect from it making it near impossible to actually tell if you can use the abilities or no.

[kuzka111]

[COLOR=#000000 !important] Originally Posted by Steelstar
Truth be told, our plans for changes of that magnitude rarely have anything to do with anyone being vocal about anything.

We have no current plans for any changes to Mass Frog.

We have no currently-slated plans for changes to Dire Charge, though it's overpowered and has been for years. There may come a time in the future where we do change it, but it won't because of any discussion here.

We talk internally about around 10x the number of changes that eventually turn into reality. Things that need to change for balance reasons, but that we don't immediately pull the trigger on for logistical or production reasons.


[/COLOR]

from about 1 year now i see only melee nerfs:
- now you say you should sooner or later nerf dire charge
- nerf for combat brute
- nerf for prowress set
- nerfed power surge on fighter ( yes nerf i got max 6 power surge bc capston on kensai is just... 2nd power surge is not action boost so its dont get combat brute oh thats geting nerfed too )
- you guys gived 25% hp boost for every melee exept fighter and pally that almost killed both class (pally was dead...)


so i want to ask whats the point to playing Fighter or Pally? when you can get like 3-6 lvls of them and you get all that are is good on them... ( Pally is joke and yes i know you want to improve him but when i see what you do with melee im just afraid...)


IMO:

-Fighter should get new power surge more charge example base 6 , lvl18 +3 , lvl 20 +3
2nd idea change power surge to 2 min duration
3th (imo best ) 5 charge but like deadly insticts

-Fighter heavy armor feats shoudl give prr/mrr + ac ( atm ac is too hard to get compere to dodge...)

-Paladin how is it that fighter got heavy armor feats and pally dont pally is low on feats then give him feat that gives him prr/mrr/ac scaled with lvl of pally

-THF suck now every1 know that ppl, so lots of ppl write this give them crit/vorpal/doublestrike on glancing blows

-if you dont want wolfs to be overpowerd then stop glancing blows on wolf from or just make it Twf form ( imo that always was stupid how thf weapon transform in to paw's)

- another thing is heavy armors how is that when you do items all armors get same prr... ac suck atm like i said you need to sacrefice lots of dps too get good ac (dodge is very easy to get)
imo you should boost ac on armors or change amout of prr on armor how is it that outfit (clothing) give same dmg reduc that heavy armor... and dont tell me that heavey get more form bab bc its just nothing
at otufit i can easy get 200+prr even when at heavy amror i get 250+ prr its only 1-2% more reduction.... bc of formula you invented


to all haters:
-yes i only melee
-yes my fav is heavy amrorer with THF
-yes im UBER/ULTIMATE complesionist and i so crapy player that im whining here (sarcasm xD)

but to tell you the truth guys atm i paly less and less bc all build that i did are just **** and its not bc im geting old or just weak or somthing just this game started to hate melee's(fighter/pally)
and i dont say that barb/monk/ranger are op they are just in way better spot now (barb should get some love too)


btw i did thead about this half year ago and most ppl said i just panic

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ility-whining!

[Innokentiy]

I doubt it, honestly. I think there are a lot of people right now that are sick of LD and want something new, and I have a hunch our current trajectory will put us past that goal post. Worst case scenario, we can keep making adjustments when these go to preview. I can say from firsthand experience, though, holy hell the EDs actually working and not breaking and stopping your movement and giving unrelated bonuses to stats that don't matter is HUGE. It's like a whole new game. Be hype

No. Don't doubt. Noone who runs high difficulties wil play nothing but LD even though they really sick of it. While Action hero avialable only in LD, it is still top of dps things.
You also put all things needed for dps to 1 destiny, these are REALLY USEFULL things: additional boosts, tactical DCs, additional boost number, seeker, t6 crits, OP action hero (REALLY OP), unstoppable, combat brute. And those 6d6 additional sneak with ddoor and Executioner's Strike... etc are just looks funny, not more.

[Xgya]

No. Don't doubt. Noone who runs high difficulties wil play nothing but LD even though they really sick of it. While Action hero avialable only in LD, it is still top of dps things.
You also put all things needed for dps to 1 destiny, these are REALLY USEFULL things: additional boosts, tactical DCs, additional boost number, seeker, t6 crits, OP action hero (REALLY OP), unstoppable, combat brute. And those 6d6 additional sneak with ddoor and Executioner's Strike... etc are just looks funny, not more.

I agree - other destinies will have to hand over a LOT of stuff before losing Action Hero makes even a nick of sense on Fusilade builds, for example.
Alternatively, you could change the "core" status of Action Hero, make it T4, thus, twistable.
Would I change to Shiradi, the "ranged" destiny (and lose the crit multipliers and "free" extra boosts) if I had that option available? Perhaps not, but I'd hesitate a lot more. I suspect the extra CC from Nerve Venom, occasional Colors proc, special arrows might make the build a bit more solid when playing defensively, at least.

[FuryFlash]

No. Don't doubt. Noone who runs high difficulties wil play nothing but LD even though they really sick of it. While Action hero avialable only in LD, it is still top of dps things.
You also put all things needed for dps to 1 destiny, these are REALLY USEFULL things: additional boosts, tactical DCs, additional boost number, seeker, t6 crits, OP action hero (REALLY OP), unstoppable, combat brute. And those 6d6 additional sneak with ddoor and Executioner's Strike... etc are just looks funny, not more.

It's true that LD has the highest DPS, however to say that nobody who runs higher difficulties will run other destinies is clearly false. A significant number of melee DPS players (on Thelanis at least) have been using other destinies consistently for over a year, most notably SD, Sentinel and GMoF since the MP buff a while back, with some opting for Fatesinger or DC. Many of these are high skulls players who can take advantage of the abilities these destinies offer.

Other destinies don't need to have even close to the top DPS to compete. When players are offered options other than DPS that may enhance or complement their abilities, many will choose to take them. This is part of why I am opposed to adding things like +crit multi to every single melee destiny - instead of improving the unique offerings of the destinies, they are being made more and more the same to improve "balance". In reality, this balance is just the equalization of DPS among all options.

If the only thing differentiating the destinies were the DPS numbers, then there would truly be no reason to play in anything but the numerically best destiny.

[J1NG]

Did you know the Spectral shooter runearm makes it own light? I tried it out in Rainbow, and it lit things up nicely.

Absolutely did not. It has its own passive light effect? Or its projectiles have their own light source?

Cool either way, just the passive light source was so cool on the FvS.

Not a monk attack at all, surprisingly. It's basic sunder and improved sunder. Enjoy.

Unfortunately, that's the wrong attack animation. That's the flip kick attack animation, which used to feature as the last attack of the unarmed attack chain once reaching the last BAB increase before all of that got changed. The one I'm after is the one where you jump and your body stays upright the whole time, whilst doing a kick in the air, which almost makes your character do the splits. I've got every other attack animation locked down otherwise for monks/unarmed, just missing this one. Let me see if I can get an upload of the animation I'm after, been looking for it since forever, but I've never seen it since joining during Mod 9.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Here, this is the one I'm after.

[Xgya]

Absolutely did not. It has its own passive light effect? Or its projectiles have their own light source?

Cool either way, just the passive light source was so cool on the FvS.

The projectiles on many spells have their own light sources.
Acid runearms do it the best in my experience, but there's many valid options.

I teach many people to cast Dancing Ball over that pit so you can see the pillars before the torchbearer steps in.

[Ballrus]

"A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered."
>>> Tier 1, easy twist.

"Improved Power Attack: Active Ability: (Cooldown 6 seconds) When Stance: Power Attack is active, you deal +0.5[W] damage with weapons."
>>> Tier 2, not so easy twist, NEED a feat.

Any chance to buff imp PA to 3[w]? It's tier 2 AND need a feat. (hard trade-off for Precision).

Also, the Combat Brute nerf is too much. Keep at 30% at least.

Thanks.

[btolson]

In an effort to make Power Attack more relevant, maybe change Improved Power Attack to:

Improved Power Attack: You deal an extra 10% damage* with weapons


*multiplicative bonus per the warchanter aura and old damage action boosts, not MP

[Komradkillingmachine]

Here, this is the one I'm after.

Hmm, I don't think this one exists anymore. Might have been removed during their Monk attack "improvements".

[Recared]

I want you to know that when I say I tested a pure handwraps barbarian and went "hey this is actually really good" I was being 100% serious. Gmof gives you Ki and the ability to be centered, too. It's completely feasible to play a handwraps non-monk with the new Gmof. It was really, really fun, actually.



If we spent this time rebalancing other stuff, the EDs would still be a broken mess. To quote Steelstar's signature, "The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet."

Shhhh. My secret build plan revealed!!! Agree and agree, feasible and superfun. Variety is the fun part in the game.

Very happy about all the work put in the EDs pass and its upcoming changes!! Thanks for the work and ethusiasm!!

PS: hmmm, the signature doesn't actually really make much sense logically: "The fact that A is white is not diminished by the fact that B is black". As a word game, would make more "sense": "Some changes are needed, yet some needs are changed".

PSS: I am effective melee and never go LD, have no problem with their 50% bonus to helpless damage.

PSSS: Can test and probably did, but don't remember right now -> % bonuses to helpless dmg are additive or multiplicative? If additive let them keep the candy, come on

[Steelstar]

PS: hmmm, the signature doesn't actually really make much sense logically: "The fact that A is white is not diminished by the fact that B is black". As a word game, would make more "sense": "Some changes are needed, yet some needs are changed".

It's really more "The fact that A is black is not diminished by the fact that B is also black".

It's in specific regard to arguments like "You can't possibly be thinking of fixing Warpriest bugs while Paladins are still not good." Yes we can, we acknowledge that both are needed changes and are fixing them in the order we're fixing them for reasons.

Both "Some of the basic styles need updating" and "Epic Destinies need updating" are true things - At the moment, we're updating Destinies, and the fact that Destiny changes were necessary is not diminished by the fact that another necessary change, basic style adjustments, have not happened yet.