2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[Anaximandroz]

i didnt read all, so sorry if someone said already, but please make momentum swing usable with animal form. The AoE trip in LD is a good cc (something important in reaper and hard t get on melees) with lose much if you can only activate once per min.

[thunir]

I've heard a lot of concerns about lack of Artificer enhancements. I wanted to ask.

How hard would it be to add an enhancement to Shadowdancer, ideally tier 1 or 2, thet lent a permanent 30% increase in trap disable speed and rune arm charge rate? It would not have to stack with the item enhancement......

[Noircere]

The 4 limit to EiN is rough but I can understand why it is being pitched out. Would it be possible for the 4 limit to ignore immune creatures so that you don't trigger EiN end up with almost no results because the 4 it "chose" for you was a red named and 2 champ with immunity? If it skipped over red named and death warded creatures it would be more useful without adding more power in most circumstances. It would also differentiate it from other mass kill spells.

+1

This would be super cool.

[Iriale]

Sure artificers don't get evasion, but are they really going to run in SD anyway?

Tank Ariti will be US.
Ranged arti will be LD or shiradi
melee arti witll be LD or DC

While its possible, is it really likely that they will run SD for the evasion? Truly, I don't see it, but maybe someone would.

you are assuming that all artis are concerned with weapon damage only and that's it. But it's not like that. There are players who like to use all the skills of the class, and that includes their spells. An artificer that does not use spells and runearm would do well to change to rogue, which does more damage. playing an artificer instead of a rogue only makes sense if you want to take advantage of those skills of the class that the rogues do not have.

currently all non-multiclass artificers who care about all the skills of their class are playing in SD, yes. Contrary to what you think, it's not something weird, it's very common.

[Noircere]

completely eliminate the ability selectors and integrate otherwise the DCs that are needed in epics (tactics, spells) Probably that would be for the best. The abilities are still too important, but they require too many points of destiny and leave little space for more fun things

+1

It took me years to figure out that +6 mainstat was worth it in exchange for half your destiny points. Once I did, I was stronger and wiser for it, but I felt like it made ED ability choices way more boring.

[dennisharlien]

I know I practically never post in threads (see my profile). But most know me on Thelanis. I have been playing since Launch (I still have my Limited Edition box I bought on Feb 23 launch from gamestop) though from 2 Different accounts. Sorry easily sidetracked. First I would Like to thank the SSG team for there tireless effort on constantly renovating and revitalizing this game we all love. Lynnabel, Steelstar and team I appreciate all your feedback even if I don't always agree with it its great that you guys take the time to constantly interact with us, FAR MORE than other games I have played.

Ok enough of that. Overall I like the changes to GMoF. gaining .5 weapon Dmg overall, Gaining Crit multiplier, removing stance requirements from wave,stone,flame,wind. Like all the rest I don't like EiN's Direction as I think it dos not live up to a T6 ability compared to say Blitz, Avatar of nature, etc. and in the purposed state will probably not take in favor of other better in tree options. that being said I don't think it ruins the destiny. To be honest I'm not sure there is an answer to fix it without either making it too powerful or under-powering it without basically leaving it the same and that's not an option either. I will have to think about this ALOT more to come up with a solution option to present. Well thanks for listening.

oh this is prolly the best solution I have heard so far.

The 4 limit to EiN is rough but I can understand why it is being pitched out. Would it be possible for the 4 limit to ignore immune creatures so that you don't trigger EiN end up with almost no results because the 4 it "chose" for you was a red named and 2 champ with immunity? If it skipped over red named and death warded creatures it would be more useful without adding more power in most circumstances. It would also differentiate it from other mass kill spells.

[Paisheng]

Did the Devs really though?


Monks are in the rather unfortunate position of being the ONLY class that utilises the Ki bar. This also makes it impossible for ANY Destiny under any of the Devs currently announced proposals to boost anything to do with the Monk in any meaningful manner after Level 20. Because it appears that the Epic Destinys are being made to be generic (in a wide term) and so a specialist class like the Monk will be left to fall through this crack. Especially after being nerfed in their Heroic Class abilities in the first place. A Monk is NOT just dps. It's a tactical unit that needs to rely on Tactics and strategy, something that the current GMoF EiN offers. The new one does not, and neither does any other Destiny. So what you've simply done by this change to EiN, is simply make everyone play more identically to each other. And not more diversely.
J1NG

Well said. By making the EDs more user friendly among the melees it is also making them less unique and diverse. Cannot one hold a towel with one hand and a ball with the other when going to the beach? Make the GMOF more friendly but provide the old stronger powers or new better powers to those centered as well in that same tree.

I mean, should it? We try really hard for the other destinies to not favor a specific class. I guess the other big exception is Fatesinger, which is very Bard themed, but the majority of the Fatesinger changes (removing Bard Songs as the costs for abilities, fixing durations to not rely on bard song duration scaling) were to pull it away from the Bard class.

Yes, again, it should. See here I think "we" (much of the player base responding on this thread) are seeing the Epic Destinies for how they were clearly originally designed. They were essentially made 1 for each class (artificier and late classes excepted). So now for Devs to tell us they are not designed for that is counter-intuitive to everything we have seen in them to this time. Yes there were secondary options of the two other destinies within a sphere that could bring flavor and in some cases a singular stronger aspect to your class by playing them. But we always new GMOF was made for monks and should have made monks shine their best in the epics. It just didn't because of the much stronger dps of Legendary Dreadnaught. You ammended that some several months back when you increased GMOF core melee power. Since then I and many others (at least on Thelanis) went back to GMOF and fell in love with it again. It was close enough dps and brought the original wonder of EiN and many other monk flavors in that tree.

You can say the Devs vision has changed and now you want all the destinies to have equal manifestations for all classes, but be clear: this is a change of 6 odd years of the entire community of DDO seeing them as specialist destinies with all the corresponding expectations of each one providing the best exponential powers to expand and fulfill that class archetype.

Six years of expectations that you would fix the destinies (that were so-so) to make them function better for that class expectation. If other classes could benefit more from it to - great, so be it. But not at the cost of the primary class it was designed for to become meh.

All of your changes to GMOF help other melee builds, but help (dcs improved on left line) and hurt (loss of .05w dps) monks. But what I think is triggering the greatest uproar is the EiN being no longer everything. I think we have all read between the lines that the performance issue is not the EiN itself, but those monks who would gather up mobs and cause a red alert leading them into another room before EiNing. A simple fix to stop this would be that on red alert EiN will only eliminate 10 mobs. That will stop monks from gathering up crowds or 30, 40 or 50 and causing this issue. But monks could still save their special power for that room with 20 mobs or so.

Everybody wins then. And we all like it when everybody wins. Especially monks. cause, as you know, we've been kind of on a losing streak. Even the usual monk naysayers that pop on such forums as this when monks are being nerfed of something in orderto say "nerf monks more" (whether intentional or just to rile up the monk crowds) seem stunned into silence this time. They can't even believe the devs nerfed the monk signature epic move of EiN.

But please don't tell us that the EDs were intended to always be so generic that it really didn't make a difference which was the primary class, because even if that was in the mind of some devs at the time, it is not was the final product was. Sure, other melees were always suppose to have other opportunities from the other class melees, but no one begrudged that the other two destinies would make the class it was designed for shine even more. That's the beauty of having strong differences. We can respect their unique powers from their ED even as they give us respect for ours. We are welcome to cross train another destiny and gain some of their unique benefits but we know it belongs ultimately to another class. And that's more than ok, that's good in my book.

[Lynnabel]

I think we have all read between the lines that the performance issue is not the EiN itself, but those monks who would gather up mobs and cause a red alert leading them into another room before EiNing.

Sadly, no, pressing the button EiN actually just causes lag

But please don't tell us that the EDs were intended to always be so generic that it really didn't make a difference which was the primary class, because even if that was in the mind of some devs at the time, it is not was the final product was.

Did I actually say that? If so, forgive me, because I'm trying really really hard to only talk about my current wishes for DDO, not the design of 7 years past.

[Grace_ana]

Ideally, each class doesn't actually have "their own ED" - but each playstyle has several to choose from. I worry that the class-restrictive versions of the current EDs are really inhibiting build freedom more than anything. I think the best way forward is to try and make each ED mechanically unique and competitive within the archetype they represent without pinning them to a specific class. That being said, you (the royal you, aka the players) may disagree, and I'm kinda interested in everyone's opinion here.

I agree very much with Paisheng, and I think he explained it extremely well. If I want a pizza, I'm not going to a steakhouse. If I'm a vegan, I'm not going to a steakhouse and demanding a vegan meal. It's a steakhouse. EDs are the same way - they need to be unique enough and cohesive enough with certain classes/playstyles that people have a favorite restaurant for real reasons. I also like Paisheng's comparison to EDs being like epic multiclassing - you can either be in your obvious home and get REALLY good at that one thing, or you can try other less-obvious things and make interesting or weird things work. It doesn't have to be a situation where each ED has something for everyone. They should not be universal trees.

[Eryhn]

I'm kinda interested in everyone's opinion here.

I just wrote a wall of text, read it twice, and then deleted it lol. God there was so many good aspects in there but it was totally incoherent - it's rly late here and I just came home and ...well, nvm.

I'll try the short version:

a) I think making EDs more generalized, is, generally speaking, an interesting idea.

looking at how build diversity and freedom of choice is created in the game mechanics, we got something like a 1-20 puzzle of:
racial + main tree + 2ndry tree + universal tree + feats + fighting or casting style choice + stat distribution

the amount of flexibility this actually offers is overwhelming, and it is GOOD, but, I would like to point out that there is quite an amount of coherence and systematical stuff in there in how racial's and universals add to a planed archetype mainly created by stat+feat+main tree+playstyle choice

from what I understand you wish to further expand on this in the EDs.
both so that EDs can better become that last puzzle piece that irons out your archetype, and also in a way where EDs could be something variant where you can swap some pieces at a late stage still.

Im sure most of us agree that currently there IS large issues with some EDs NOT becoming that final piece well, or NOT being viable choices for variation.

SO by and large good goal.


However

In the curent state i feel it isn't fully thought out yet. In some ways you are too radical: gmof for everybody being prime example. In others, you dont go far enough: why cant we have universal stat choice, or extended stat choice at least in a sensible fashion? why can we get more ED PLs that add, but not get a proper Arti ED?


One thing I thought of reading all this is the age old pure vs mc debate. both sides are very invested, and it's not a good idea to take too much away from either. what as I read this thread many players have voiced is a fear that too much uinqueness is taken away for generalization (gmof mostly) on the other hand, some generalization things the players would like to see, do not seem to reverberate much on your end (arti ED, more open stats, more open choice of starting ED for class)

some middle ground might be found in a more systematic approach. Offer one main destiny to each archetype that retains uniqueness. offer some variants that lean more to this or that archetype but are more versatile in nature. offer some more destinies that are totally versatile.

the important thing is, people that want it that way need to find their unique destiny to enhance what they built 1-20, for every possible 1-20 archetype
at the same time, if you so wish, create or recreate some stuff that allows people to get out of that box, but not at the cost of the existance of the box, which is not a constraint when it is self chosen when planing our your build.



...

ok this turned out longer than what i envisioned as the short version.

Im also not sure if it is more coherent than the first version.


******.


oh, well, ima go sleep and rethink this in the morning XD


...

also, if anybody has a clue what i wanted to write under b) and c) feel free to enlighten me ...


edit:
anyways, my current gripe is mainly, overall its random and not so systematic as you paint it: some stuff gets due fixes, due buffs, some stuff gets nerfs which we dont like but can accept to some extent when using our brain a bit - some stuff gets changed in its style where from a player perspective it is not only acceptable but desirable, some stuff gets changed in its style in a way where it takes things unique and absolutely essential away from player perspective. there is also some design choices for balance reasons which from player side never ever will be liked and from dev side should be tried to stir around as if they were the literal pest: longer cooldowns on something players got used to use and like is anathema.


edit2: finally, there is a matter of degree here you should settle on in advance.

its either fix, buff and balance, OR it's redesign to a grand new goal. dont do BOTH, in tidbits scattered, and if a full comprehensive redesign is something that can neither be stomached on dev time nor player's acceptance, scratch that part. sry.

[Lynnabel]

If I want a pizza, I'm not going to a steakhouse. If I'm a vegan, I'm not going to a steakhouse and demanding a vegan meal.

I was pretty sure I tried to make it clear that in this extended and extremely specific metaphor, I'd personally prefer a diverse cast of really good restaurants that I can pick and choose to go to on a whim. So, in that regard, yes, you're exactly right. We should make sure that everyone can choose between a lot of places, instead of just telling everyone that "hey, you want dinner as a melee? well, the steakhouse is the only good place, and their pizza is overpriced and covered in kale. If you try anything else, it'll be such a downgrade that you won't want to eat anything, and also half of the abilities don't work and Lynn had to spend basically an entire week ripping the horrifying dregs of Fatesinger out of the sinks in the back and wants to go home"

Hm, that metaphor got away from me a bit.

I'm hungry.

[Paisheng]

Sadly, no, pressing the button EiN actually just causes lag

Wow, ok. Unexpected news. I don't think I have ever seen that trigger from my EiN. But since that is the case, it raises the question, can you not change the EiN mechanic so it performs more like one of the death spells? Several of those can wipe out large numbers and apparently don't create lag.

[Grace_ana]

I was pretty sure I tried to make it clear that in this extended and extremely specific metaphor, I'd personally prefer a diverse cast of really good restaurants that I can pick and choose to go to on a whim. So, in that regard, yes, you're exactly right. We should make sure that everyone can choose between a lot of places, instead of just telling everyone that "hey, you want dinner as a melee? well, the steakhouse is the only good place, and their pizza is overpriced and covered in kale. If you try anything else, it'll be such a downgrade that you won't want to eat anything, and also half of the abilities don't work and Lynn had to spend basically an entire week ripping the horrifying dregs of Fatesinger out of the sinks in the back and wants to go home"

Hm, that metaphor got away from me a bit.

I'm hungry.

No, I get it. But the point is that the steakhouse is where you go if you want steak. You go to the North End for lasagne, and Chinatown for Chinese food, and the Theater District for sushi. They are all dinner, sure, but not the same kind, and it all can't cater to everyone.

GMoF should be where monks and the monk-curious go. It should help monks like crazy. And (in my opinion, anyway) it's totally fine if they look at you funny when you don't use chopsticks, just like it's fine to need to be centered for the extra fun.

[Pyed-Pyper]

If you want to give monks and light armor classes more of a reason to play in GMOF, then increase the MRR cap for cloth/light armor in the cores or in a T5/T6 enhancement (something non twistable).

I thought the reason there was an MRR cap on robes is because it would make monks too powerful? Not disagreeing with your point, just asking if SSG would consider your point.

[Ughh]

RANT ON, o.k., I have been her since 2006. my main is a monk and I have used EIN for years. If this change actually sticks...EIN 3 min cool down 4 mobs when I have frog and can kill 6 mobs every min. SSG may never get another dime from me. This change is ludicrous and to blame performance? really. come on. After seeing other tier 6 abilities and their power, to see this happen to EIN infuriates me!! Other classes get 30-40 or more kills in a dungeon or raid with all their dps, or spells etc. but let a monk get that many...we are overpowered. HA i call Bull. Monks are tactical builds, using abilities to assist a party. we can stun mobs, jade mobs etc so the dps can take them down...but what happens when uncontrollable mobs appear? EIN..but no more. Its not like we can do this on every mob we have a 5 min cool down and have to charge up...so we don"t have to charge up anymore..o.k. neither do other ED abilities now..so why nerf this ability? Make it 10 or 12 mobs every 2 mins or so but 4 every 3 mins .NO!!! This is something that must be addressed or DDO will lose alot of customers or at least alot of monks. And, while we are at it, really give non centered toons the SAME bonuses as centered ones? Somebody done lost their dang mind!!!! RANT OVER

[Paisheng]

I was pretty sure I tried to make it clear that in this extended and extremely specific metaphor, I'd personally prefer a diverse cast of really good restaurants that I can pick and choose to go to on a whim. So, in that regard, yes, you're exactly right. We should make sure that everyone can choose between a lot of places, instead of just telling everyone that "hey, you want dinner as a melee? well, the steakhouse is the only good place, and their pizza is overpriced and covered in kale. If you try anything else, it'll be such a downgrade that you won't want to eat anything, and also half of the abilities don't work and Lynn had to spend basically an entire week ripping the horrifying dregs of Fatesinger out of the sinks in the back and wants to go home"

Hm, that metaphor got away from me a bit.

I'm hungry.

I see the same metaphor from the other side. I want each ED to be a specialty restaurant that does one food group the best. I think making each ED more generic to all classes is like making them all Applebees, Ruby Tuesdays, Cracker Barrels, TGI Fridays, Chilis etc. All offer a plethora of different cuisines including mexican, italian, american, etc. All are good, but none are great. So if I want Mexican I'm going to what is affectionately called little Mexico in our city to get something authentic or from a roaming taco truck. When I want something else I'd rather hunt down that original Italian for pasta. I don't want my steak to be just part of their venue. I want my steak from a place that knows how to age, cook and garnish them. I want the best of each distinct culture. And I am not disappointed that the mexican restaurant offers a subpar hamburger. I don't go there for that.

In the same way I want to go to an ED that really knows its cultural class archetype even if it is a cross class for me. I want the best at what it does, even if it is not what I do. Maybe I'll learn to like that food. If I want a different flavor then I want to go to an ED that is all over that business of bringing their special cuisine.

Anyway that's how I see the metaphor. Can we all get together and order out now?

[Mindos]

I was pretty sure I tried to make it clear that in this extended and extremely specific metaphor, I'd personally prefer a diverse cast of really good restaurants that I can pick and choose to go to on a whim. So, in that regard, yes, you're exactly right. We should make sure that everyone can choose between a lot of places, instead of just telling everyone that "hey, you want dinner as a melee? well, the steakhouse is the only good place, and their pizza is overpriced and covered in kale. If you try anything else, it'll be such a downgrade that you won't want to eat anything, and also half of the abilities don't work and Lynn had to spend basically an entire week ripping the horrifying dregs of Fatesinger out of the sinks in the back and wants to go home"

Hm, that metaphor got away from me a bit.

I'm hungry.

Dragon Buffet for the win(gs)!

[J1NG]

This is the only history reminder in support of the Devs that I'll give.

The dev who worked on GMoF originally if memory servers, was everyones favourite loot ghost baner, Feather of Sun. And the original EiN was not even working like it is now. Originally it made everything invulnerable whilst they were time locked. Then because it busted so many scripts in game, it was changed to how it is now. I'm fairly certain a lot of code sorcery was implemented to get EiN working as it is on live right now. And being 7 years out of date code wise in keeping with the rest, I can see the Devs "wanting" to bring it up to speed.

But I an others have noted, that none of us during live play remotely notice any lag caused by EiN even when we do drag stuff together. This change sounds more like the change for the Lantern Archon for FvS that used to light up the surroundings. None of the players really saw a difference. Yet the Devs claimed otherwise. This EiN change sounds like that - as we can't see the server side, but I agree with another poster, if the server is having trouble, can we not upgrade the server? If the issue is more code based, are the Devs currently unable to untangle it and keep it as it is without the lag? It feels more like the Devs just want to nerf and change the route of DDO for players, and if players don't kick a fuss, the next thing we'll know is that we WILL be getting +60MP and +50% Attack Bonus with the T6 Magister as the Devs move to make everything more identical and non-differentiating.

Cool things make DDO stand out. Removing cool things makes DDO seem like the rest. And there's just as good or better around. So always repeating the same approach here will only lead to DDO's own ruin eventually.

Now, as for REAL lag. I CAN tell you that I have a toon, who often for lag testing purposes, goes into the vale, drags ALL the mobs together. Then equips a Celestia and Sunsword. Then does a Whirlwind Attack. Extra points if you go in Divine Crusader for extra Crit profile.

Do you know what type of lag that does? It takes multiple seconds to resolve. Those in Meridia can tell lag is going on for a moment. (I only do it once an update, and only on Thelanis, so no one not on Thelanis and after an update need worry. )

It's because the Sunblade light burst is checked on any spell triggering. Each attack that is a critical on the Celestia triggers a fire burst (and on vorpal a sun burst). And each of these has a chance to re-trigger the Sunsword, resulting in numerous cross triggers that grind the vale to a halt as each enemy that has an AOE proc'd on them checks for everything around them which is then rechecked again in case it triggers another AOE burst. Now THAT is lag.

The EiN lag or Archon lag? Hard for players to accept at face value as we can't see it.

J1NG

[Ughh]

Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
I was pretty sure I tried to make it clear that in this extended and extremely specific metaphor, I'd personally prefer a diverse cast of really good restaurants that I can pick and choose to go to on a whim. So, in that regard, yes, you're exactly right. We should make sure that everyone can choose between a lot of places, instead of just telling everyone that "hey, you want dinner as a melee? well, the steakhouse is the only good place, and their pizza is overpriced and covered in kale. If you try anything else, it'll be such a downgrade that you won't want to eat anything, and also half of the abilities don't work and Lynn had to spend basically an entire week ripping the horrifying dregs of Fatesinger out of the sinks in the back and wants to go home"

Hm, that metaphor got away from me a bit.

I'm hungry

I see it as, Let's just have ONE restaurant in town, a buffet, where you can just get anything and everything out there to eat. I may be sub par to some, but hey we have it all for everyone. Gastric anomalies occur immediately, just like what this whole ED thing is doing to me...(retching right now)

[btolson]

Can you guys fix the reset bugs with Momentum Swing/Lay Waste? It seems the client and server both make a check, and disagree frequently on the result, or something. Change it to a stack counter system if you need to (2 stacks of cleave usage to clear MS, 3 stacks of MS usage to clear LW) so it's not % based anymore if that's the only way to resolve the disagreement/fake resets.

Also, shorten the cooldown on MS, since it is now possible to take it without any way to hasten the cooldown. 20 seconds? A char with cleaves can usually reset it in ~6 seconds (above bug aside). I think 20 for chars without is a much more useful ability than 60.