2019 ED Pass: Martial Sphere

[MaeveTuohy]

What's crazy about a lot of this feedback about Monk is a lot of our discussion internally was "wow monks are going to be way too good with new GMoF, maybe we should tone it down a little" and then you guys are all "this is clearly the end of the monk class as a whole!!!" Gonna be honest here - I didn't see this coming at all :P

Whenever your predictions are that far off results, there is a problem in how you are designing and assessing changes.


Maybe your play testing system needs to involve skilled players, rather than staff. You may be in an echo chamber. You may not be comparing apples to, well, earlier versions of apples.

[Lynnabel]

Whenever your predictions are that far off results, there is a problem in how you are designing and assessing changes.


Maybe your play testing system needs to involve skilled players, rather than staff. You may be in an echo chamber. You may not be comparing apples to, well, earlier versions of apples.

Of the two of us, who has actually played with the new GMoF the most?

[Paisheng]

I mean, should it?

Since you are kindly poking me....

Several others have responded yes to this since I saw your post and I like their rationale. Here are some of mine:

A. Historically the EDs were created clearly with a primary class in mind. You can tell that by their titles as well as the enhancements and cores that are suited toward those archetype builds.
Grand Master of Flowers is the monk archetype (The actual title given to the highest level monks in the original DnD booklets) and must therefore be the ED designed for the monk. The fact you have to be centered
and it garnishes monk stances and uses ki all demonstrate this is the monk ED tree.

Historically one sees the continuity of flavor and powers of the monk in GMOF are continued, supported and enhanced in that venue. GMOF has traditionally improved powers unique to the monk such ki and stances.
History says yes to GMOF being best for monks.

B. Classically using a different ED from your archetype is like multi-classing. No one who adds barbarian to their druid or a cleric with a fighter wants a bland class just like they already have. They want the differences from
that class to synergize, not the same abilities under a different name to synergize. Some will synergize better than others -- but it is fusing differences that make your multi-class unique and often powerful in some
aspects. The classic wizard-fighter got benefits from both classes while not excelling in either as much as a pure class. That was the give and take. That was the classical strategy both in terms of creating a unique
flavor combination and/or a singular power fusion. Most understood this was at the cost of not excelling in their original class abilities.

I fear too much flexibility among the EDs for other classes to equally participate reduces the original archetype from providing the classical hard choice between staying with the pure ED or gaining very different benefits
from a another archetype. As I said in an earlier post that balance is a good goal as long as it doesn't nerf the primary ED for its chosen class. Those multi-classing into a different archetype ED understand this and don't
fault that monks, for example, are going to get even more out of their archetype destiny than they will. Classically GMOF should be better for monks than other classes just as monk trees should be in heroics.

C. Passionately. The excellent dialogue on parts of the player base and devs speaks volumes of love for the game, the amazing character builds, and the wide roaming quest to put your build to the test.

The passion for balance in DDO among classes and their EDs I am sure is moved from a deep love of DDO --a game all want to see successfully continue and grow. We've seen the demise of great games
because of too much power creep or having it become lopsided for a particular class or race, etc. You devs are doing a difficult task to maintain balance so the game is loved by all. And I respect this as
much as my monk has been on the nerf anvil so often in the last 2 years. Deep down all the players want this balance. I just don't think it is best achieved by reducing the archetype's ED's. I want equality
among the archetypes EDs just not equalitarianism. As melee classes have different roles and powers accordingly (some defensive, some offensive, some cc, etc) so should the EDs. This is complimentarism
-- different but equal.

So the passion of myself and many other monks in this case, who have in cases like mine designed for years collecting gear, doing PLs, etc to achieve an archetype GMOF with its grand EiN are
torn by the understanding of balance, but not at the cost of GMOF specialness -- especially expressed in the capstone EiN. It is not the nerfing to achieve balance that is the outcry, as much as the
perception (true or not) that the pendulum has swung to far on monks. The passion is not to be better than the other classes or EDs but to be differently better. That is why many of these changes which
diminish the monk even as they become more inclusive of other melees and classes, seems a nerf, not just on dps, but a nerf of being special as a monk. Things in the tree especially designed for the monk
are now reduced and offered to every melee and his brawling cousin. And that is why especially the outcry on EiN, something so "Monk-like" and grand being reduced less than the power of a heroic spell.

All these things make us monks cry passionately "Yes! GMOF should be best for monks"


Now I get to poke you back -- "why shouldn't GMOF be best for monks?"

[Lynnabel]

Now I get to poke you back -- "why shouldn't GMOF be best for monks?"

Heh, I suppose turnabout is fair play :P

In a perfect world (or at least my perfect world), the Destinies aren't just more of your base class - they're the extra little spice on top of your 1-20 build. Gmof shouldn't be "the last 25% of your monk build," gmof should be one of several choices to put that last bit of sauce on top of your monk build. Ideally, epics let you go wild with crazy combos and epic abilities without the worry that "ugh, everything I try is either literally broken (looking at you fatesinger) or does negative zero damage" and then you just end up in LD on your monk being sad.

[HouseAtreides]

Of the two of us, who has actually played with the new GMoF the most?

An unproductive comment to be sure, when a vast number of people playing this game have been here for more than a decade. Between all of us and the few of you, who do you think better understands the implications of changes like these for the PLAYERbase? Do you actually think the majority of us need to play these changes to understand them? I have been personally immersed in this specific gaming environment since beta, along with many others. I know perfectly well how disconnected your statement was that he was pointing out to you.

I'm not sure why there's such a resistance to feedback. Why even tell us about these things is this is the level of response? "not changing it because I actually played it, get gud scrub" level comments are for the birds, man.

[Lynnabel]

I'm not sure why there's such a resistance to feedback. Why even tell us about these things is this is the level of response? "not changing it because I actually played it, get gud scrub" level comments are for the birds, man.

Oh, I only mentioned it because actually playing the trees and looking at theorycrafts are two vastly different experiences. I find the best way to actually test changes is to, well, step into the client and run around. I don't mean to imply that I've played the game longer than anyone (although it's been a decade and I have more hours in DDO than any other game by roughly an order of magnitude, even since before I actually started working on the dev team). When you say resistance to feedback, though, did you mean the part where I told people that we were avidly looking at feedback in this very thread? I don't really know what you want from me at this point. We're already listening to feedback, what's the next step? Seriously, I'm trying to foster discussion, get people talking, get some good responses - what could I be doing to help?

[Paisheng]

I mean, should it?

For monks named Xeang, yes.


Heh couldn't resist that.

Heh, I suppose turnabout is fair play :P

In a perfect world (or at least my perfect world), the Destinies aren't just more of your base class - they're the extra little spice on top of your 1-20 build. Gmof shouldn't be "the last 25% of your monk build," gmof should be one of several choices to put that last bit of sauce on top of your monk build. Ideally, epics let you go wild with crazy combos and epic abilities without the worry that "ugh, everything I try is either literally broken (looking at you fatesinger) or does negative zero damage)" and then you just end up in LD on your monk being sad.

A fair vision of what could be. Certainly folks would have even more tough choices then to select from. Alas they were made to be 25% (50% maybe) more of your base class when they were made. As Ana-grace pointed out earlier -- EDs are a specialty restaurant. As my dad used to say, "If you go to a steak restaurant, son, ...get the steak." There is always some other choices on the menu (and that is what I see you enhancing in the EDs by many of these changes). And you are making those choices better. But it's too much to change it to a smorgasboard. It is still a steak restaurant. They still better serve the best steaks to call themselves that regardless how good their other dishes are.

[HouseAtreides]

Oh, I only mentioned it because actually playing the trees and looking at theorycrafts are two vastly different experiences. I find the best way to actually test changes is to, well, step into the client and run around. When you say resistance to feedback, though, did you mean the part where I told people that we were avidly looking at feedback in this very thread? I don't really know what you want from me at this point. We're already listening to feedback, what's the next step? Seriously, I'm trying to foster discussion, get people talking, get some good responses - what could I be doing to help?

Avidly looking at feedback to dismiss? Perhaps.

EiN targets needing to be more than 4, and the reasoning behind it, would be a start. People aren't whining because they don't want their over powered toys taken away every time they criticize a nerf, you know.

Even if there needs to be a scaling effect to protect the low 20s, the number of targets affected at level 30 being higher than 4 is NOT overpowered. When other abilities are mentioned in terms of how they scale relative to EiN, people are referencing how the ability is used most often at level cap, we are low key threatened with another nerf for talking about THAT ability.

Honestly, if the response is overwhelmingly negative to a specific change or the general response is vastly different than you expected, the problem isn't always us.

[J1NG]

Oh, I only mentioned it because actually playing the trees and looking at theorycrafts are two vastly different experiences. I find the best way to actually test changes is to, well, step into the client and run around. When you say resistance to feedback, though, did you mean the part where I told people that we were avidly looking at feedback in this very thread? I don't really know what you want from me at this point. We're already listening to feedback, what's the next step? Seriously, I'm trying to foster discussion, get people talking, get some good responses - what could I be doing to help?

When the Devs play their own ideas, most of the time they don't see the problems because they are not experts in the field they are play testing, they do no see the issues that it also effects. Also, you will also become accustomed to playing that particular "new" way but having no experience of the issues and playstyles in use right now, fail to see why your designs are poorly done in the first place. Especially if it involves a "Long Term" goal of some kind, which may or may not get included into the game a decade later which would have made the difference to the change implemented by their ideas. Players don't have this, and we work things around to get things "working" here and "NOW", including using workarounds to issues which technically didn't even need solving: Your making of GMoF Wholeness of Spirit be usable whilst moving is nice, but unnecessary; Everyone who uses GMoF was jumping whilst using it to prevent the lockdown in movement or breaking of using the ability anyway. And this is from 7 years of players using experience and knowledge to developing strategies to do so. The Devs don't have all this knowhow, so of course we don't trust your judgement on the matter.

Listening to Feedback and taking on board Feedback are very different things. I've seen the Devs do both. But I recognise when there's a time when no feedback makes a difference. This is one of those times. I have ZERO faith in the Devs in pulling the changes to GMoF off to applause other than your own at this juncture.

J1NG

[Lynnabel]

It is still a steak restaurant. They still better serve the best steaks to call themselves that regardless how good their other dishes are.

I like that metaphor a lot, actually.

I guess, following that line of thinking... are there times when you don't want steak? What about if it's a late night, you're out with your friends, it's been a long day, and all you want, more than anything... is pizza. Cheesy, greasy, open at 2am, plastic plates, a cold glass of free water, the best pizza of your life. It's going to burn your tongue, but it doesn't matter, you just really want some greasy pizza and you want pizza right now.

Are you really going to go to the best steakhouse in town for pizza?

If the only place in town is a steakhouse, and all you want is pizza, do you really want to pay steakhouse price?

The steakhouse isn't even open at 2AM. They probably put kale on the pizza, too. It's too pretentious, too expensive, you don't want to be boxed into a high end steakhouse with your friends, you just want to crowd around a semi-clean table and yell about anime.

Steak, every night, every time you go out into epics, and there's just that one steakhouse. And sure, their steak is great, everyone loves it, but every night? Every single night?

Wouldn't you rather get to choose?

[Lynnabel]

Avidly looking at feedback to dismiss?

I'm not really sure how to answer this besides just saying "no" :P There's a reason we posted these threads so far in advance. There have been numerous changes already - including me frantically making a brand new ability in Fury of the Wild - in response to feedback. In case I wasn't clear before, these are up here on the forums so you guys can talk about it and help us refine changes :P

[J1NG]

I like that metaphor a lot, actually.

I guess, following that line of thinking... are there times when you don't want steak? What about if it's a late night, you're out with your friends, it's been a long day, and all you want, more than anything... is pizza. Cheesy, greasy, open at 2am, plastic plates, a cold glass of free water, the best pizza of your life. It's going to burn your tongue, but it doesn't matter, you just really want some greasy pizza and you want pizza right now.

Are you really going to go to the best steakhouse in town for pizza?

If the only place in town is a steakhouse, and all you want is pizza, do you really want to pay steakhouse price?

The steakhouse isn't even open at 2AM. They probably put kale on the pizza, too. It's too pretentious, too expensive, you don't want to be boxed into a high end steakhouse with your friends, you just want to crowd around a semi-clean table and yell about anime.

Steak, every night, every time you go out into epics, and there's just that one steakhouse. And sure, their steak is great, everyone loves it, but every night? Every single night?

Wouldn't you rather get to choose?

Yes, we do want to be able to choose. But when the Devs, the only "Food" location around serves ONLY steak. There's only one option to all that. So asking us what we want is pointless. Because there's only one outcome.

J1NG

[Grailhawk]

Shadowdancer

Core 6:

Shadow Mastery: Passive Bonus: You now have Evasion .... In addition, when you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, granting it 5% vulnerability to physical damage and removing its immunity to sneak attack for a short duration, if applicable.

Could the text "short duration" be changed to state the actual duration? Would make it much easier to understand how valuable this enhancement is, and its also more player friendly.

Wiki says that it last 12 seconds is this correct?

[ComicRelief]

*snip*
Right now, I'm pretty confident in my assessment that very few people currently enjoy GMoF (I'm pretty sure some people begrudgingly struggle through it) and the changes listed will drastically help that. We're keeping a close eye on feedback, so definitely make sure to post constructive criticism if you've got it

Well, I have a 19/1 Fighter/Rogue which actually preferred GMoF over "Legendary Dreadful". That 2-step full healing combo every 5 minutes was PDG (and now with the changes looks to be even better...potentially).

Just sayin'...

[Lynnabel]

That 2-step full healing combo every 5 minutes was PDG (and now with the changes looks to be even better...potentially).

You have no idea how much better it feels to be able to use the heal while moving, it's such a simple change but it's probably my favorite :P

[Don1966]

so gonna throw this in the martial one but it applies to all the destinies. can we please get the stat choices in each destiny to be from all stats instead of just 2 or 3? really hate running around in fatesinger on either a cleric or monk and not being able to boost my wisdom or dex.

[Xgya]

The way I see it, we'd need an ED for each "playstyle", while clearly identifying those.

DC caster is a playstyle.
Offensive caster is another.
Ranged (Thrown might be considered different here)
Melee (quick - TWF, SWF...)
Melee (hard - THF, sword and board)
Tank
Healer

Most competent players will be either EXTREMELY good at one style, or very efficient at many. For example, many ranged DPS characters safely focus on that alone, while no self-respecting dedicated Healer doesn't pick at least one other role when healing is unnecessary - DC caster is most common, but some people use weapons.
What this means is some ED trees can be focused, while others can be hybrids of styles typically associated with one another.

Occasionally, you'll find in EDs ability normally linked to class abilities, like fetching some extra Ki, adding to bard songs, granting Evasion, but most of the abilities should not be class-dependent because anyone from any class can switch to any ED at the press of a button.
If you don't WANT to use Ki, there should still be a few things left for you in the tree with that ki ability that ki users that don't want to stay in there might want to twist some place else. "Using Ki" shouldn't be a playstyle, unless we start getting a few more classes that actually use Ki (I vote for Sohei ;P), and because it's not a playstyle, an ED shouldn't be focused around it.
Same goes for "Using Rage" (even though now we technically have three classes that rage in combat). Or "People with Divine Grace".

[HouseAtreides]

I'm not really sure how to answer this besides just saying "no" :P There's a reason we posted these threads so far in advance. There have been numerous changes already - including me frantically making a brand new ability in Fury of the Wild - in response to feedback. In case I wasn't clear before, these are up here on the forums so you guys can talk about it and help us refine changes :P

What feedback regarding the planned nerfs have you not dismissed immediately without outwardly considering that you may in fact be wrong? If the only changes open for refinement are buffs, and nerfs are completely non negotiable then say it up front so we can stop wasting our time and yours trying to convince you.

On one hand you say that you post these in advance so we can help provide perspective, on the other when we don't love what we see we are told we don't understand because we haven't played the changes.

Buffing the mostly useless sphere's is exciting. Nerfing things that have existed without unbalancing the game so long that if they were a child they would be halfway through elementary school confusingly diminishes that excitement.

[HouseAtreides]

so gonna throw this in the martial one but it applies to all the destinies. can we please get the stat choices in each destiny to be from all stats instead of just 2 or 3? really hate running around in fatesinger on either a cleric or monk and not being able to boost my wisdom or dex.

In the interest of making all destinies have some usefulness for each character as they slog through 460 epic TRs, your request to have a full pattern stat buy in each tree, thereby making each destiny at least partially useful, has been summarily dismissed already in the ED change discussion. LOL

[Lynnabel]

What feedback regarding the planned nerfs have you not dismissed immediately without outwardly considering that you may in fact be wrong?

Oh, I see what's up. To be super clear, just because we don't respond with "yeah we're doing this now! thanks for the feedback!" doesn't mean we're not considering it I tend to overshare and this is one of the side effects - the absence of me saying yes is not always a no