Loot Tetris - little help here?

[Arjen]

Feels like this one was probably not that well planned out....

We have this minor artifact:


Band of Diani ir'Wynarn Bracer Minor Artifact
Minimum Level:29
Maximum Filigree Slots: 3
Wisdom +22
Quality Spell Focus Mastery +2
Quality Potency +41
Light Absorption +31%


Which precludes us from using the cleric set:

Set 5 (Divine Casting) - Flamecleansed Fury:
Set Bonus: +25/50 Fire, Force, Light, Positive Spell Power, +5/10% Fire, Force, Light, Positive Spell Crit, +2/4 Artifact bonus to Wisdom and Charisma, +1/3 Artifact bonus to Spell Focus Mastery

Hallowed Castigators Bracers
Minimum Level: 15/29
Devotion +94/+214
Healing Lore +14/+31
Insightful Sheltering +10/+27
Improved Metamagic - Empower Healing

Tattered Scrolls of the Broken One Raid Bracers
Minimum Level: 29
Hallowed +21 An item with this quality assists only wearers who have the ability to turn undead. Hallowed items provide an +21 Enhancement bonus to the maximum Hit Dice of undead turned.
Sacred +21 An item with this quality assists only wearers who have the ability to turn undead. Sacred items provide an +21 Enhancement bonus to your effective level for Turning Undead.
Magical Sheltering +55
Insightful Sheltering +28

So for our +22 wis item you want clerics slotting the monk/melee ring? Can our artifact not be a necklace? This seems silly.

[slarden]

There is no requirement that the minor artifact be your main stat - the difference i only one. I play a wisdom-based favored soul and will be using the con gloves for my minor artifact because the 1 stat point isn't needed. If I really wanted that one point I would live with the ring.

I have many alts and play several builds and every character faces this type of issue, the trade-offs just differ for each character.

[Strambotica]

Worst yet, they actually swap from Necklace to Bracers because there was conflicting with the Druid Set...

So, in favor of only 1 class build (Caster Druid)... dump at least 2 classes (Cleric, Favored Soul) with this change.

Edit: and i post several times for this thing on Lammania preview section, with no reply... so im assuming that they really dont care. (Sorry for bad english)

[Aelonwy]

Feels like this one was probably not that well planned out....

We have this minor artifact:


Band of Diani ir'Wynarn Bracer Minor Artifact
Minimum Level:29
Maximum Filigree Slots: 3
Wisdom +22
Quality Spell Focus Mastery +2
Quality Potency +41
Light Absorption +31%


Which precludes us from using the cleric set:

[So for our +22 wis item you want clerics slotting the monk/melee ring? Can our artifact not be a necklace? This seems silly.

This was pointed out on Lammania, I suggested make it a ring. So did several other people. It was either decided not to be an issue or got lost in the loot shuffle taking place.

[Lynnabel]

This was pointed out on Lammania, I suggested make it a ring. So did several other people. It was either decided not to be an issue or got lost in the loot shuffle taking place.

No matter what the slots shook out to being, it'd either end up being 100% rings (not a great precedent for the first Artifacts ever) or break some sort of set (still bad but at least fixable when we continue to itemize at this tier). We'll target different slots when we make more Artifacts in upcoming patches. We're not done with Artifacts, not by a long shot

[Recared]

No matter what the slots shook out to being, it'd either end up being 100% rings (not a great precedent for the first Artifacts ever) or break some sort of set (still bad but at least fixable when we continue to itemize at this tier). We'll target different slots when we make more Artifacts in upcoming patches. We're not done with Artifacts, not by a long shot

Very easy: make it back to Int stat as it was first. It has other uses for other builds besides the ones that use that cleric set.

[boredGamer]

No matter what the slots shook out to being, it'd either end up being 100% rings (not a great precedent for the first Artifacts ever) or break some sort of set (still bad but at least fixable when we continue to itemize at this tier). We'll target different slots when we make more Artifacts in upcoming patches. We're not done with Artifacts, not by a long shot

Or why aren't sets composed of more items than the set? Why are so many sets 3 slots of 3 slots instead of say, 3 slots of 4 slots?

Am I missing some reason a set has to be exactly some set of gear? (lore?) . From a player / gear optimization / possibility perspective it would be far more interesting if sets weren't so static.

[Arjen]

No matter what the slots shook out to being, it'd either end up being 100% rings (not a great precedent for the first Artifacts ever) or break some sort of set (still bad but at least fixable when we continue to itemize at this tier). We'll target different slots when we make more Artifacts in upcoming patches. We're not done with Artifacts, not by a long shot

A hat? Belt? Boots? Literally any other slot that does not directly conflict with the Divine Caster set that this item clearly goes with?

I hear what you're saying re: itemization but as a DC Caster / healer this feels bad, man.

[Aelonwy]

No matter what the slots shook out to being, it'd either end up being 100% rings (not a great precedent for the first Artifacts ever) or break some sort of set (still bad but at least fixable when we continue to itemize at this tier). We'll target different slots when we make more Artifacts in upcoming patches. We're not done with Artifacts, not by a long shot

One poster on Lammania, had a novel idea, if the sets (since most were 3 pieces) had occupied the same slots each time it would have made artifacts easier.

Alternatively, another poster's idea was the artifacts could be made to join a set via nearly finished and that would also have made them more functional within the Sharn loot system.

Sorry but I could only find the first poster's quote:

What a mess

You should probably consider this:
- Having armor as part of the sets with no way to avoid is a very bad idea as armor is the one item slot with very different types (docent, cloth, light, medium, heavy, metal/non metal).
- Having the sets use different slots was a bad idea as that makes it very hard to slot in other good items across sets, most noteable with the minor artifacts.

Redesign:
- Sets have items in 4 slots but only need 3 of those, preferably none of which is the armor slot but I expect that is too late to change.
- Sets use the same 4 slots across all sets
- No Minor artifacts use those 4 slots.
Much cleaner implementation.

It was probably far too late to implement this^ very logical setup but the other person's idea of being able to craft in a set bonus would have worked to, assuming it had been possible at all.

[Lynnabel]

One poster on Lammania, had a novel idea, if the sets (since most were 3 pieces) had occupied the same slots each time it would have made artifacts easier.

This means every set, from Sharn onwards, would need to occupy those same slots as well to avoid current conflicts - and every Artifact onwards would need to avoid those slots. There were always going to be collisions, and we minimized them where we could, but we have infinity time onwards from right now to make more artifacts and more sets. It's a bad precedent to avoid the whole slot economy game at all - and if we wanted to take the easy way out on this problem, we'd have made a new Artifact Slot. Designing for DDO means taking extra time and extra care to make sure that we don't ever box ourselves in for the future. We don't ever want to make things easier for us now at the expense of us later. DDO has a very long future and we don't need to throw more roadblocks in our own way.

Alternatively, another poster's idea was the artifacts could be made to join a set via nearly finished and that would also have made them more functional within the Sharn loot system.

This is not something we can do technically.

[Vorachtin]

This means every set, from Sharn onwards, would need to occupy those same slots as well to avoid current conflicts - and every Artifact onwards would need to avoid those slots. There were always going to be collisions, and we minimized them where we could, but we have infinity time onwards from right now to make more artifacts and more sets. It's a bad precedent to avoid the whole slot economy game at all - and if we wanted to take the easy way out on this problem, we'd have made a new Artifact Slot. Designing for DDO means taking extra time and extra care to make sure that we don't ever box ourselves in for the future. We don't ever want to make things easier for us now at the expense of us later. DDO has a very long future and we don't need to throw more roadblocks in our own way.



This is not something we can do technically.

So with caster druids being non existent because they perform poorly, and clerics fvs not being able to use them, we just launched a useless item?

Nice!

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

This means every set, from Sharn onwards, would need to occupy those same slots as well to avoid current conflicts - and every Artifact onwards would need to avoid those slots. There were always going to be collisions, and we minimized them where we could, but we have infinity time onwards from right now to make more artifacts and more sets. It's a bad precedent to avoid the whole slot economy game at all - and if we wanted to take the easy way out on this problem, we'd have made a new Artifact Slot. Designing for DDO means taking extra time and extra care to make sure that we don't ever box ourselves in for the future. We don't ever want to make things easier for us now at the expense of us later. DDO has a very long future and we don't need to throw more roadblocks in our own way.



This is not something we can do technically.

I feel I have sufficient reason to not doubt your ability to come up with a solution........

1-According to the logic conveyed by item images, a necklace can be a trinket instead

2-According to what we learned from slavers gear, items can be made to be equip-able in multiple choice slots.

3-According to real world logic, any ring can be placed on a chain to become a necklace

4-According to some of what we've already seen from you........ you are perfectly capable of some very unique and lovable item designs

Then again, I also feel that I have sufficient reason to believe you are exhausted after all the hard work you've put in so far and deserve a bit of a break or at least a thinning of what your to do list mandates. Just take things at your own pace I suppose, crunching numbers gives me a headache and DDO code is comprised of zeros and ones and considering all you've done so far, I'd be surprised if even someone such as yourself didn't have a headache from all of such. Using the brain is like using a muscle, you need your rest as to ensure growth all the same, promise us you won't overwork yourself. Just make a post that lists off your to do list, and the good players will be patient and understanding, and anyone who lacks such a capability simply doesn't matter.

[mikarddo]

Or why aren't sets composed of more items than the set? Why are so many sets 3 slots of 3 slots instead of say, 3 slots of 4 slots?

Am I missing some reason a set has to be exactly some set of gear? (lore?) . From a player / gear optimization / possibility perspective it would be far more interesting if sets weren't so static.

Exactly this. Offering no choice at all with 3/3 is bad design, while 3/4 would be much more interesting. Incidently the 3/3 design also means that many raid items are much less desireable - often worse than the quest loot in the same slot for the set.

Overall, the design seems to be made to not work well for many builds making the loot process much less interesting.

[slarden]

It's 2 dead slots on the ring or 1 less stat point if you live with 21 wisdom. Entire nations have survived worse.

It would have been a more fun crafting system if they let you pick an item (any of the available slots) then pick the abilities to craft on to it (like slavers but only 1 thing - minor artifact). I can live with it the way it is - it's a super big jump in power for all my characters.

[Aelonwy]

This means every set, from Sharn onwards, would need to occupy those same slots as well to avoid current conflicts - and every Artifact onwards would need to avoid those slots. There were always going to be collisions, and we minimized them where we could, but we have infinity time onwards from right now to make more artifacts and more sets. It's a bad precedent to avoid the whole slot economy game at all - and if we wanted to take the easy way out on this problem, we'd have made a new Artifact Slot. Designing for DDO means taking extra time and extra care to make sure that we don't ever box ourselves in for the future. We don't ever want to make things easier for us now at the expense of us later. DDO has a very long future and we don't need to throw more roadblocks in our own way.

I think I am misunderstanding you or... there has been a miscommunication. All the 3 slots things would mean as far as I see is that Sharn Artifacts would work with Sharn sets. Assuming there are artifacts and sets sometime in the future then those future sets and artifacts can be organized to make sure they can be worn together. And people can decided for themselves which set works best for them. Same way as it will be now, ie any artifacts you make will either work with existing sets or people will decide for themselves which set/artifact combo works best for them.

This is not something we can do technically.

Huh. Okay but seems strange when isn't that exactly what adding the Slave Lord's Set Bonus to existing named items did? I could be wrong I never did Slave Lord Crafting. I've run the quests but they were way too long and way too much of a slog for repeated back to back runs for loot or mat farming (IMHO). But I thought that was how that worked.

[Aelonwy]

Or why aren't sets composed of more items than the set? Why are so many sets 3 slots of 3 slots instead of say, 3 slots of 4 slots?
.

That would have worked too.

[Zites]

There's a theme here, it's the same old song, top of the pop's, it's called buff your characters if you play monk, arti,fav,wolf, or buy the newest thing scoundrel, your good to go other wise, wise up. You didn't think they were going to make it hard on them selves did you?

[HungarianRhapsody]

So with caster druids being non existent because they perform poorly, and clerics fvs not being able to use them, we just launched a useless item?

Nice!

"I don't care about this specific piece of loot, therefore you are bad!"

...seriously, even if this specific item just had 3 filigree slots and nothing else, there would still be someone who wants it. Settle down there, Bevis.

[Arjen]

This means every set, from Sharn onwards, would need to occupy those same slots as well to avoid current conflicts - and every Artifact onwards would need to avoid those slots. There were always going to be collisions, and we minimized them where we could, but we have infinity time onwards from right now to make more artifacts and more sets. It's a bad precedent to avoid the whole slot economy game at all - and if we wanted to take the easy way out on this problem, we'd have made a new Artifact Slot. Designing for DDO means taking extra time and extra care to make sure that we don't ever box ourselves in for the future. We don't ever want to make things easier for us now at the expense of us later. DDO has a very long future and we don't need to throw more roadblocks in our own way.

This conversation is going a little too deep down the design systems as a whole rabbit hole.

Let's backtrack slightly - you guys just released a shiny new expansion that we're all super pumped about. Those of us that play Clerics and FVS who are far and away the ones who facilitate raiding in this game are getting locked out of the new set designed for us because of an arbitrary itemization decision. Can we seriously not just fix this so BOTH Druids and Clerics/FVS players can use this item? I personally don't want to wait until new artifacts come out - I want to use the cool new system now and not feel like I'm gimping myself in one way or another by embracing Sharn loot and totally redoing my gear. You made a zillion changes to items in the various lammania threads, can you please just acknowledge that this is bad for the entire player base you have that plays THE MAIN HEALERS in the game and fix it?

Pretty please?

[SirValentine]

Alternatively, another poster's idea was the artifacts could be made to join a set via nearly finished and that would also have made them more functional within the Sharn loot system.

This is not something we can do technically.

Or, instead of crafting it on, have these "artifacts" automatically be part of all the Sharn sets. That would open up some flexibility, address the 3-of-3 problem (use 2 of 3, plus any Sharn artifact to get a Sharn set).

That should be something technically possibly, right? After all, the Gem of Many Facets, both versions, are part of 8 sets and has been for years.