Weapon damage modifier questions

[Careall]

These questions could also be class/build questions, but I am more interested in the overall mechanics of how to calculate damage.

I am looking at a 12/8 DWS/Mechanic Great Crossbow build. At the top of those two enhancement lines are some decent ranged damage bonuses, but different types. For example:

Mechanic:
Sniper: You gain 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2[W]. Great Crossbows now vorpal on a 19-20.
Sharpshooter: +3 to-hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. +3 additional damage with all non-repeating crossbows and +1 SA dice.

DWS:
Improved Archer's Focus: Your Archer's Focus Stance can now stack up to 25 times instead of 15. Passive: +5 Melee Power and +5 Ranged Power

Sniper is multiplying the "weapon damage roll" by adding +2 onto any existing and stacking multipliers.
Sharpshooter is adding +6 damage to great crossbows.
Improved Archer's Focus is adding +5 Range Power, which is an exponentially reduced multiplier value that depends on how much Range Power one currently has.

My confusion comes from lists of damage sources that are included in each of the above types but not specifically excluded sources. A good example of why this is confusing is that Weapon Multipliers were added way back in Update 14, and since then, there have been a few changes to sources of damage bonuses. I also haven't found references to those damage sources in regards to Weapon Multipliers. I have tried to find relevant information, but I probably don't know effective search keywords.

The problem is that the order of calculation determines what the resulting final damage is. As I am trying to decide which Tier-5 enhancements to take, the effect benefits seem to be about equal. Therefore, understanding the damage bonuses from each tier-5 seems important.

Here are some of the questions I haven't been able to find definitive answers to (I can read-into the descriptions on DDO Wiki, but those end up only being assumptions):
- Does a bonus, like the +5 from Sharpshooter, get added into the +2[W] Weapon Multiplier from Sniper?
- - What about Intelligence to Damage bonuses?
- - What about weapon enchantment (e.g., from a generic +2 Crossbow) bonuses?
- - What about Deadly bonuses from other equipped items?
- - What about elemental damage (probably not, but it's not 100% clear)?
-Does Melee/Range Power multiply all those damage sources?
- - Does Melee/Range Power include damage from Weapon Multipliers (e.g., +2[W])?

Advice and recommendations on which tier-5 to take are welcome, but that's not the question I'm asking.

[Careall]

Gonna bump this once. I'll take anything: A link to some post I should have found on my own. Recommendations for which tier-5 enhancements are best. An "I have no idea what you are talking about," reply. Joke of the day?

[Thunder-Monkey]

[I]
1 - Does a bonus, like the +5 from Sharpshooter, get added into the +2[W] Weapon Multiplier from Sniper?
2 - What about Intelligence to Damage bonuses?
3 - What about weapon enchantment (e.g., from a generic +2 Crossbow) bonuses?
4 - What about Deadly bonuses from other equipped items?
5 - What about elemental damage (probably not, but it's not 100% clear)?
6 - Does Melee/Range Power multiply all those damage sources?
7 - Does Melee/Range Power include damage from Weapon Multipliers (e.g., +2[W])?

Not an expert but I'll take a shot (pun intended) - people will be quicker to tell me I'm wrong than respond to a request for help:

Your [W] weapon multiplier indicates how many times your weapon dice get rolled on a successful attack. For example, 2[1d4] means a d4 is rolled twice. The result of these rolls is then added to your enhancement bonuses (see 1-4 above). This enhancement bonus number is fluid and can be seen in the details panel of your inventory and is updated in real time, say for example someone buffs your damage enhancement - look in the details panel and you can see something like 'Damage: 2[1d4] + 23 Pierce, Magic... the '23' is your enhancement bonus.

The result of your [W] damage + enhancement bonus is then multiplied by your Melee/Ranged Power. If you have 20 Melee/Ranged Power your damage is increased by 20%.

If your score a confirmed critical hit the result of all the above is multiplied by your Critical multiplier - this is shown correctly on your weapon tooltip when you hover on it, it is NOT shown correctly in the details panel (and I don't know why, after 7 years I don't know why!).

To address point 5, elemental enchantment damage is not affected by Melee/Ranged Power, spell powers or critical hits, it is a separate, additional damage calculation and can be seen as such in the rolling numbers above the enemy's head (normally with a small icon to indicate damage type, unless you have that option turned off and see only X+X+X numbers).

Sneak Attack damage is also a separate, additional calculation and can be seen as such in the rolling numbers above the enemy's head. It is affected by Melee/Ranged Power by 1.5x, but not critical hits. It is also affected by anything that increases Sneak Attack specifically (like Deception items). Sneak attack only applies it's damage when you do not have the direct agro of the mob you are hitting.

Hope that helps, if I got anything even slightly wrong, someone will be along soon to correct it!

TM

Edit: Thanks to Grailhawk below I learned that SA is affected by MP/RP (150%). Nice!

[Grailhawk]

Weapons damage has two parts the random (dice) and static parts. To determine damage you role the dice part then add the static part after that you can multiply by crit multiplier if a crit and then multiply by (1+Power/100).

+2[w] only increase the dice part

So if you have weapon and your current damage is 1d6 + 10 +1d6 Sneak Attack and you add both Sniper and Sharpshooter you go to
2[1d6] + 16 +5d6 Sneak Attack
The average damage of this would be
7 + 16 + 10.5 = 33.5 (with 0 MP/RP and not criting)

If you crit only the dice + static parts are multiplied not the Sneak Attack or any other effects. So assuming a x3 multiplier you would get
3(33) + 10.5 = 109.5 avg damage on crit (with 0 MP/RP)

Power works on both Sneak attack (scaled by 150%) and base damage so assuming 100 Power you get
(1 + 100/100)(33) + (1+ (100*1.5)/100)(10.5) = 66 + 26.25 = 92.25 avg damage
(1 + 100/100)(3)(33) + (1+ (100*1.5)/100)(10.5) = 198 + 26.25 = 224.25 avg damage on a crit

Hope that helps.

[Careall]

Thanks TM.

You've provided some references, and I found some information that does seem to confirm most of what you've indicated.

There's still a sticky point about elemental damage. There's an enchantment on the weapon itself that adds elemental damage, and there's enhancements, such as Elemental Arrows or Spellsword that add elemental damage in what seems to be a slightly different manner. These descriptions indicate they are improved with spell power. Still, I suspect these, like other elemental damage, is added in last and not multiplied by anything else.

Now we get to KotC's Smite Evil light damage that scales with melee power. Does that damage calculation get pushed back to before melee power is applied, or is melee power applied separately to that light damage and tacked on at the end of the calculation? Obviously, if the calculation is pushed forward in the formula, then the light damage gets multiplied by critical hits. This in turn takes me back to elemental damage from enhancements that are multiplied by spell power and gets me wondering where that actually fits in the calculation as well.

Overall, however, it seems Double Strike/Shot is a clear winning choice (for xor choices) for min-max builds since all damage from a Double Strike/Shot is 2x (or however many hits occur). For example +20 Double Shot should produce an average of +20% of all n[W] + Enhancements + Elemental Damage over some number of shots to normalize the average, while +20 Range Power would only result in an average of +20% of N[W] + Enhancements.

[Grailhawk]

Thanks TM.

You've provided some references, and I found some information that does seem to confirm most of what you've indicated.

There's still a sticky point about elemental damage. There's an enchantment on the weapon itself that adds elemental damage, and there's enhancements, such as Elemental Arrows or Spellsword that add elemental damage in what seems to be a slightly different manner. These descriptions indicate they are improved with spell power. Still, I suspect these, like other elemental damage, is added in last and not multiplied by anything else.

Now we get to KotC's Smite Evil light damage that scales with melee power. Does that damage calculation get pushed back to before melee power is applied, or is melee power applied separately to that light damage and tacked on at the end of the calculation? Obviously, if the calculation is pushed forward in the formula, then the light damage gets multiplied by critical hits. This in turn takes me back to elemental damage from enhancements that are multiplied by spell power and gets me wondering where that actually fits in the calculation as well.

Overall, however, it seems Double Strike/Shot is a clear winning choice (for xor choices) for min-max builds since all damage from a Double Strike/Shot is 2x (or however many hits occur). For example +20 Double Shot should produce an average of +20% of all n[W] + Enhancements + Elemental Damage over some number of shots to normalize the average, while +20 Range Power would only result in an average of +20% of N[W] + Enhancements.

Proc effects are not multiplied on crit unless they so so in the description (and in that case usually say by how much there multiplied its not by your weapon crit multiplier look at Elemental Burst).

Proc effects are not multiplied by melee power or spell power unless they so and in that case they are not "pushed back" as you called it (this never happens in this game).

[Thunder-Monkey]

There's still a sticky point about elemental damage. There's an enchantment on the weapon itself that adds elemental damage, and there's enhancements, such as Elemental Arrows or Spellsword that add elemental damage in what seems to be a slightly different manner. These descriptions indicate they are improved with spell power. Still, I suspect these, like other elemental damage, is added in last and not multiplied by anything else.

Correct. Weapon enchantments that come with the weapon (such as Acid 1d6) are not improved by Powers or crits (unless, as Grailhawk says, it says so in the description eg; Acid Burst). The Elemental Arrows enhancement imbues your weapons with extra damage and does scale with the relevant spell power. And yes, neither are multiplied by Ranged Power.

Now we get to KotC's Smite Evil light damage that scales with melee power. Does that damage calculation get pushed back to before melee power is applied, or is melee power applied separately to that light damage and tacked on at the end of the calculation? Obviously, if the calculation is pushed forward in the formula, then the light damage gets multiplied by critical hits. This in turn takes me back to elemental damage from enhancements that are multiplied by spell power and gets me wondering where that actually fits in the calculation as well.

The extra light damage is calculated and applied separately from your weapon damage and is shown as an extra number in the rolling damage numbers above the mob's head. In this case, KoTC's Slayer of Evil I grants 1d4 light damage that scales with 100% melee power, instead of Light spell power. So with 20 melee power your 1d4 damage will be increased by 20%. The elemental damage from enhancements (imbues) that are multiplied by spell power are also calculated and applied separately from your weapon damage.

Overall, however, it seems Double Strike/Shot is a clear winning choice (for xor choices) for min-max builds since all damage from a Double Strike/Shot is 2x (or however many hits occur). For example +20 Double Shot should produce an average of +20% of all n[W] + Enhancements + Elemental Damage over some number of shots to normalize the average, while +20 Range Power would only result in an average of +20% of N[W] + Enhancements.

Yes, Doublestrike/shot is highly desirable for that reason, but that is not to say that MP/RP are not desirable too. As you have stated before, an increase to MP/RP is relevant to how much you already have. Doublestrike/shot are direct increases in the number of hits you make. Worth noting that Doublestrike maxes out at 100 but Doubleshot does not.

TM

[Careall]

Thanks all - that helps a lot.