No Pugging Problem

[AkromaAoW]

Once upon a time, I pugged. I would join every PUG I could. That was the way I approached DDO - play any quest with any group, regardless of classes. In a game that I have been playing for 13 years, I spent probably the first 5 or 6 years constantly pugging. Then, something changed, I decided to disappear from public view, and I quit pugs. I don't mean I mostly quit pugging, I mean I quit. It wasn't a particular event or thing; I woke up one day, and just started playing with RL friends and family, or running solo. Over the last 7 years, I have probably been in 7 pugs, maybe.

It's interesting. My wife occasionally considers putting up an LFM when we discuss running certain quests, but I balk, and we either run the quest alone or not at all. I'm not sure why this happens - why I get so anti-pug. I haven't had miserable pug groups. Quite the opposite, I greatly enjoyed pugging when I was doing it. Once upon a time, I was a "go to" for pug grouping, constantly receiving requests to join groups. I just don't seem to want that experience any more, and I'm not sure why. It's just a negative feeling when I consider joining or hosting a pug.


It could be that perhaps I believe that the pug experience today won't compare to the pug experiences of yesteryear. Certainly, much has changed over the years. Perhaps, I don't feel like having others join my party will elevate my experience as I once believed it would. Playing any quest with any party (and succeeding) used to be very entertaining.

Maybe, it's why people play now. Most of the players I know from way back are now very xp/min kinds of people. Grinding that next life as fast as possible, repeating the same high xp/min quests, over and over ad nauseam. It just doesn't seem to be something that strikes a chord with me.


Maybe I could find a group that is just casually running stuff, smelling flowers, and so on. Sadly, even running with that kind of group doesn't entice me. No, it seems that I have my niche now in DDO, and it involves playing solo or with my wife, kids, and grandkids. That's my DDO now. I'm not sure what could happen, or what DDO could do, to get me back into pugs. My head knows that pugging should be a great experience, but my heart just doesn't seem to agree.

E.

[Cantor]

I used to log-in, see which guildies were on and switch to an alt to run with them usually having 4-6.

At some point the character advancement become such that any time on an alt felt like wasted advancement. So it was log-in on main, say "hey does anyone want to join?" and go about it with or without. Bravery bonus and RXP has only made it harder as ranges for grouping are more restrictive.

Now it's login with my designated duo and go, hardly considering that someone might be able to join. We post occasionally, but the truth is: puggers slow us down (not necessarily in quest but in between time) and unless you are running a chain odds are you won't have the same quests to keep running together.

[GrannyNooblet]

At some point the character advancement become such that any time on an alt felt like wasted advancement.

Personally, I see this as the biggest problem nowadays. Not just in DDO. Seems to be in nearly any game I try any more.

There was a time when people played online "roleplaying" games to simply "play" for a few hours (or more) for the enjoyment of the content, for socializing, or for roleplaying, etc. (Well, except for the griefers/PKs in old UO back in the day. They played for the opportunity to be a pain, anonymously, lol.) The min/maxers & power/speed folks played other types of games. Now they dominate even the roleplaying games. In the roleplaying games, generally, it didn't matter if your character was the super uber crush character. It was playing, for playing's sake. Period. PUGs were a good way to meet people with no pressure to be Super Toon.

Now, it seems, every game I try is dominated by the spreadsheets and min/maxing, and xp/min, etc. and anything that isn't advancing your character to uberness is "wasted time." Even the games that promote themselves as being a game for roleplayers.

I guess, judging by it's prevalence, that must be fun for a lot of people. I don't know, for me, that just sucks all the enjoyment out of the word "play." That's not play, that's work, imo.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

When I was more actuive, around 2011-2013, I PUGged a lot. At one point, it was short before an football/soccer championship,m and at one point while doing a Sentinels Of Stormreach quest, we began discussion the championship. About teams, about possibilities, etc. ... That was a very funny experience.

These days, I just try to get into the game again, and that in solo mode. I'm lucky to still be in the same guild I was then, so I can ask them. The only problem would be the time zones (Europe / North America / Australia). But then, I wonder whether I'd be ready for grouping. I think I'd rather have to learn the mechanics a bit more.

[Amundir]

Pug if you want to. Don't if you don't want to. So long as you're enjoying how you play the game, who cares? Having a "am I doing it wrong" approach, personally, is a waste of time. You're either having fun or your not.

Also, your last paragraph talks about maybe finding a group. Why not start a group instead? If you start a static group, you have control over the outline approach the group takes to running quests. So long as you clearly lay out what you want in a static group, and those that join the group also want the same thing, win win.

[Thrudh]

Pug if you want to. Don't if you don't want to. So long as you're enjoying how you play the game, who cares? Having a "am I doing it wrong" approach, personally, is a waste of time. You're either having fun or your not.

Yeah, weird post, OP.

What do you want from us?

You want confirmation that pugging can be fun? Fine, here you go. It usually is fun.

If nothing else, it's a change of pace. Different groups run the same quests differently.

But do what you want. Whatever makes you happy.

[LucidLTS]

Once upon a time, I pugged. I would join every PUG I could. That was the way I approached DDO - play any quest with any group, regardless of classes. In a game that I have been playing for 13 years, I spent probably the first 5 or 6 years constantly pugging. Then, something changed, I decided to disappear from public view, and I quit pugs. I don't mean I mostly quit pugging, I mean I quit. It wasn't a particular event or thing; I woke up one day, and just started playing with RL friends and family, or running solo. Over the last 7 years, I have probably been in 7 pugs, maybe.

It's interesting. My wife occasionally considers putting up an LFM when we discuss running certain quests, but I balk, and we either run the quest alone or not at all. I'm not sure why this happens - why I get so anti-pug. I haven't had miserable pug groups. Quite the opposite, I greatly enjoyed pugging when I was doing it. Once upon a time, I was a "go to" for pug grouping, constantly receiving requests to join groups. I just don't seem to want that experience any more, and I'm not sure why. It's just a negative feeling when I consider joining or hosting a pug.


It could be that perhaps I believe that the pug experience today won't compare to the pug experiences of yesteryear. Certainly, much has changed over the years. Perhaps, I don't feel like having others join my party will elevate my experience as I once believed it would. Playing any quest with any party (and succeeding) used to be very entertaining.

Maybe, it's why people play now. Most of the players I know from way back are now very xp/min kinds of people. Grinding that next life as fast as possible, repeating the same high xp/min quests, over and over ad nauseam. It just doesn't seem to be something that strikes a chord with me.


Maybe I could find a group that is just casually running stuff, smelling flowers, and so on. Sadly, even running with that kind of group doesn't entice me. No, it seems that I have my niche now in DDO, and it involves playing solo or with my wife, kids, and grandkids. That's my DDO now. I'm not sure what could happen, or what DDO could do, to get me back into pugs. My head knows that pugging should be a great experience, but my heart just doesn't seem to agree.

E.

I don't know if it makes you more at ease with your feelings, but you're part of the majority now (and probably were then, too). Years ago people gamed to meet new people, but that's changed and now people play social games primarily to play with friends or family. There's some great research on it if you're curious.

In particular I recommend Lina Eklund of Stockholm University, but others are following the trends too.

For example a recent survey of teens (http://www.theesa.com/article/video-...g-friendships/) found about 80% felt social games improved their connection with people they already knew, but only about 1/3 made even one new friend in a game EVER.

So don't feel bad if you read here that you're supposed to want to PUG because it's a MMO. This game is diminished every time someone tries to dictate how someone else should play the game, do what you enjoy and have fun, guilt free.

[AkromaAoW]

Yeah, weird post, OP.

What do you want from us?

You want confirmation that pugging can be fun? Fine, here you go. It usually is fun.

If nothing else, it's a change of pace. Different groups run the same quests differently.

But do what you want. Whatever makes you happy.

Yeah, I'm just thinking out loud on the forum. That's not usually a good idea. Anyway, I don't really know what I'm after. Perhaps, I am wondering aloud how it could be possible to turn back time to get the gaming experience of old, or just wondering how I might even want to pug again. Let's just summarize the OP as " I used to pug...blah, blah, blah...now I don't...blah, blah, … I wonder if there is really anything that will make me ever want to again pug like the old days or at all."

If there is a question, it would be what would make pugging desirable for me, and of course, nobody can answer that question but me.

E.

[Bobmj]

Over the years my work schedule has changed many times, causing my playtime to vary periodically. This also caused my involvement in pugs to change drastically, depending on the overall server (Sarlona) level of activity and the number of guildies that were on. Recently I've been pugging a bit more and I've been running into people that I ran with several years back. It's been a pleasant surprise and fun catching up with them. It's encouraged me to post some more LFMS when I have the time, so if you see a WarlordBob group on and we've run together, jump in and say Hi. If we haven't run together, jump in and say Hi anyway! I'll try not to slow you down to much.

[voxson5]

My play time is normally when the servers are quiet.

So to advance I had to learn to be self sufficent, and started to learn to zerg solo. I normally play to get better, not to **** about.
Haven't really looked back.

I do put up lfm groups, but not many are on, or dont want to join what I am running. (Lol maybe I just have a bad reptuation)

That said, I still try to group with others when I can.

I wish there was a better population during my play time.

[lyrecono]

I get ya op.

As far as pugging goes, it tires me.
Most of the meta savy people run with thight knit groups to grind pastlives and reaper exp, using channels and discord to socialise and pick up party members.
When i set up a lfm in the past, i attract all sorts of people that can't run content on their own and recognise mine as someone that can.
Usually stemming from guilds that don't support or guide their players much where misinformation spreads like wildfire.
(E.g. you don't need fortification, just get your armor class up, leading to a very frustrated first life lv14 2hf paladin with an ac of 30)
And i get it, i realy do, when you do meet a tr vet, a triple everything completionist that has triple your hp and killes every thing in the quest before it can kill you, i would cling on for dear life, ddo on elite is still very hard on a first lifer and reaper is even worse. But there rarely any normal and hard lfms up and if they are, they are usuably up there for hours, they don't fill.

For years i grinded all the pastlives to keep up with the meta but got stabbed in the back hard by the devs when they deceided that some playstyles no longer deserve support. I have stepped away from the meta and mostly solo or play wirh a very small pool of people, people that don't bug me as much and have simular tastes in life as i do and know how to play, it's a group that seems to be shrinking,
I still stay away from pugs, having to drag people through is drainiing.
You're not only battling bad ai on mobs, buggy content and ballance issues but also misinformation and your own frustration when they get lost/die to much or act suicidal.

Every few months, someone pops out of the woodwork, with a "hey, remember me? It's (insert name here", apperently i was on their friends list( i user to mentor people for years).
But i don't remember them, i have seen to much, done to much in the years they were gone. The gap between them and me is so large now that running with them leads to frustration. 85% of the returnees leave between 3 to 6 months and i have wasted that time bringing them up to speed in terms of gear and time.

So don't worry, some people simply don't pug for various reasons, just enjoy the game the way you want to, others aren't entitled to your time.

[Wh070aa]

Thing about pugging is that you need to be able to solo the quest, to have fun pugging.

And waiting for someone to join when you can solo the quest is not that fun. Joining in progress quests is punishing, Joining non reaper streak quests at level range where you get the bonuses is punishing...

The power creep is out of hand. Same are the wacky XP requirements for stuff. And loot drops no longer are worth chasing after. The drop rates are atrocious, and loot tables flooded with trash.

Like you pug to get an item and even when people reroll like 6 times nothing good drops. And newer quests are so much harder than old quests, it's not even funny.

In my opinion the splitting of the player base with the adventure pack/expansion system is at fault. Like you run nice old quests with some F2P and then nothing for packs that are not popular. Also inventory issues where people have to stop to go sell and repair, and then get lost on their way to next quest.

And managing the PUG's is way too much effort, since they automatically make you loose XP if you leave it on default settings so you have to manually change the numbers, and then the auto join feature stops working and you have to accept people while fighting, and set up your chat in a way you don't miss people because the audio notification in chat doesn't work...

Like seriously they have made being the leader of pug so much worse with reaper and all this new ****. And don't get me started about quest locations and quest chains and lockouts.

Stop making people get locked out of quests if someone goes AFK, or is not holding wilderness instance open.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Hope it wasn't my bad jokes...

On a related note; I really wish I could find a group of people to do raids with. (especially the hard, never run ones....)

[Memnir]

[ZJEPane]

I feel you, OP.

I've been feeling this in most of the games I've been playing, to be honest.

My first ever MMO was LotRO, and I played that for an ungodly number of years and really enjoyed it. Had a great kinship and community (made one long-lasting friend, actually, so I guess I'm in the minority. I still follow Togepi on Instagram!) But once it was gone, it was gone.

I've been chasing that feeling--not only of having a close-knit group of players, but of having some kind of expertise.

I played a Minstrel in LotRO. That was my main, and I loved it. Maybe a bit pretentious to say, but I was a hell of a Minstrel (before they changed everything with the trait trees, but I digress), and I enjoyed helping others learn the art. But I was well-geared, had all of my deeds ground out, and had a raid-ready character.

I've been chasing that feeling of expertise, of being part of a larger community as well. For maybe the last 4-5 years. I've chased it from game-to-game. LotRO to DDO to GW2 to WOW and over and over again. Each time, I download the game, I give it a shot, and I end up running around alone, because not only am I not good/well-geared/expert at the game, I can't Dunning-Kruger myself into thinking that I am.

I recognize my badness and I go away.

I'm trying DDO again, but it's hard. I have a good group of people, a good guild and channel, but they're all expert. Everybody's running high reapers. I'm running solo on hard. Normal if I have to. I don't have the gear. Haven't done the years of grinding greensteel and raids. Still trying to figure out which class fits me best. Still dying occasionally. I feel like a burden and a liability with others.

Okay, enough rambling from me. But I see you.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Once upon a time, I pugged. I would join every PUG I could. That was the way I approached DDO - play any quest with any group, regardless of classes. In a game that I have been playing for 13 years, I spent probably the first 5 or 6 years constantly pugging. Then, something changed, .

1) There are quite a few people that still play that way. Problem is finding them. Our lowered population is spread out over all the servers. So this is problematic for a good answer for this.

2 & 3) 13 years.... Your gaming experience has changed as you gained knowledge. Your abilities are better, and that alone would prejudice your choice of pugs, and weather or not you start an lfm.


It's hard to offer advice for you, and the other posts here somewhat reflect that.

A) Take a new toon w/ no gear. go to Korthos or Harbor and put up an lfm. You'll have great DDO abilities, but on a naked toon. Don't give in to equipping from your account. Don't use crafted items. Seriously, the point is to bring back some that new player experience.
You'll make new friends, and the experience you have will help those new players.
Don't shy away from any content. run it all. Explore all the nooks and crannies, There are parts of quests a lot of completionist players don;t know exists because they just blow by it.

B) Monster Manual. If you're ViP, try concentrating on the named entries. That alone is a task almost no one does. It takes a lot of dedication and time.

C) Maybe even form or join a new guild made up of new players.

D) Some players play perma-death for a new experience, and if done properly is a big challenge.

E) Don't rely on Sharn or any expansion to change your thrill of the game, it will pigeon-hole you.

just a few ideas, hope they help.

[PsychoBlonde]

Personally, I see this as the biggest problem nowadays. Not just in DDO. Seems to be in nearly any game I try any more.

There was a time when people played online "roleplaying" games to simply "play" for a few hours (or more) for the enjoyment of the content, for socializing, or for roleplaying, etc. (Well, except for the griefers/PKs in old UO back in the day. They played for the opportunity to be a pain, anonymously, lol.) The min/maxers & power/speed folks played other types of games. Now they dominate even the roleplaying games. In the roleplaying games, generally, it didn't matter if your character was the super uber crush character. It was playing, for playing's sake. Period. PUGs were a good way to meet people with no pressure to be Super Toon.

Now, it seems, every game I try is dominated by the spreadsheets and min/maxing, and xp/min, etc. and anything that isn't advancing your character to uberness is "wasted time." Even the games that promote themselves as being a game for roleplayers.

I guess, judging by it's prevalence, that must be fun for a lot of people. I don't know, for me, that just sucks all the enjoyment out of the word "play." That's not play, that's work, imo.

Gamers are aging, and like everyone as they get older, their time usage shifts, and with scheduling differences comes different priorities.

Over the past 10 years gaming has fully transitioned into a saturated marketplace. There was a time, before instant digital delivery of literally everything, when you'd have to WAIT for games you wanted to play to come out. Now, pretty much everyone who games has WAY more games to play than they have time to play them.

I have the same problem with novels. I used to re-read my novels all the time because I just couldn't find that much new stuff I wanted to read. Now I'm buried under a mountain of digital books, many of which I discard after only a cursory look. I have so many things to read that I have to throw most out as not worth my time.

There are some things the devs can do, but the general market of gamer that they're working with isn't something they can readily change.

[count_spicoli]

I would at least join a group or pugs during group and group raid bonus weekends. +50% in every quest is tough to pass up.

[Rexthor007]

Personally, I see this as the biggest problem nowadays. Not just in DDO. Seems to be in nearly any game I try any more.

There was a time when people played online "roleplaying" games to simply "play" for a few hours (or more) for the enjoyment of the content, for socializing, or for roleplaying, etc. (Well, except for the griefers/PKs in old UO back in the day. They played for the opportunity to be a pain, anonymously, lol.) The min/maxers & power/speed folks played other types of games. Now they dominate even the roleplaying games. In the roleplaying games, generally, it didn't matter if your character was the super uber crush character. It was playing, for playing's sake. Period. PUGs were a good way to meet people with no pressure to be Super Toon.

Now, it seems, every game I try is dominated by the spreadsheets and min/maxing, and xp/min, etc. and anything that isn't advancing your character to uberness is "wasted time." Even the games that promote themselves as being a game for roleplayers.

I guess, judging by it's prevalence, that must be fun for a lot of people. I don't know, for me, that just sucks all the enjoyment out of the word "play." That's not play, that's work, imo.

I know what you mean I like the grafix the story line I break everything and kill all monsters save all the people that got left behind I miss the old friends when there was no exp bonus you got to keep the same friends in groups with 30 levels don't get to run with the friends any more the game has changed into 20 different kinds of play remembered when group would pause waiting for member to look on wiki to see what to do on new content no time for that today much faster paced was told in groups don't open chests don't fight monsters ha ha sorry long time player want to do all ha ha good gaming out there have fun your way that's whats its all about.

[pal002]

I was never really fan of MMOs in general due to the typical monthly fee cost. But I decided to give DDO a go when they began advertising heavily about their "Free to play" business model. Now I'm sure that everyone knows there is really no true free games, but I liked what I have seen enough to become a paying customer and bought points for access to additional premium contents.

However, being a first time MMO player means that I really did not know squat about the finer aspects of the game. But, vast majority of the people I encountered in PUGs did not hold that against me. Some of them even went out of their way to help me out and gave me tips on playing different roles. Eventually joining a guild means that I ended up doing less PUGs than before, but I always did appreciated the fact that there are some nice people out there who were willing to help out a stranger.

The climate of the games have changed vastly over the years, and there are way less players now than years past. It is now typical to have a LFM up and not even one person joined before the quest ended. If I did not see any LFM to join and decided to start one myself, I would expect there is a possibility that I might have to end up doing everything. Perhaps because xp per min is not my highest agenda, I don't have a problem taking the time to explain things to newer players. I have occasionally encountered ex-players who quit years ago and decided to come back and check things out, and I don't see why it is necessary to make them feel unwelcome because they are slowing me down and have questions about the newer contents.