U42 Preview 3: Loot

[Duhboy]

Since I'm not actually in the office and haven't had a chance to respond individually when things are done, I figured I'd give you guys a quick summary. Here's my Monday Morning to-do list for loot so far:

1. Replace quell with vorpal on greataxe again
2. Spice up Raid Repeater
3. Spice up Raid Goggles
4. Insightful doublestrike in Part of the Family set somewhere
5. Int Cloak to Quality Int again
6. Put Ghostly on Ruby Ring instead of sheltering
7. Make proc effect on stone boots, drop anchoring

Thanks for providing feedback! As a quick reminder, your feedback is infinitely more likely to be acted upon if they're posted as concrete, constructive suggestions. "This is bad" is way less easily worked with than "replace X with Y"

Nice that you're putting quality int back on the cloak.
Why change insightful physical sheltering in favor of ghostly? Why not add ghostly to Shadow Sprinters instead? It'll make those boots look better as well as fit the theme of the boots.
I also suggest keeping regular accuracy on the ruby ring instead of potentially having it as insightful accuracy. There is already gear with insightful and quality accuracy in it.

[Iriale]

Actually, yes, I did just do that. Onyx Ring got a full redesign as of... an hour ago?

(INSIGHTFUL INT WIS CHA)
Profane DC +1/Profane DC +2
Insightful Dodge
Insightful Resistance

I hope this fits a little better

I like the new ring, but I am worried that there is a new mandatory stat (DC profane) when there are still important stats not covered. For example, there is no (generalist) spell lore in the whole pack. Could you add it somewhere? The previous items where it appears are very rare (only two, and only one end game) and appear in slots that conflict with the loot of this pack (in addition, the spell lore would be the only non-redundant stat of that item)

I am concerned that by removing the negative amplification, which is another stat very little represented in previous items but very important for pale master (do not forget that often no one can cure the pale master in groups ... it is very rare the luxury of a cleric, especially in pugs), an important problem is created for this type of characters. Since the velvet cloak is an object clearly designed for pale masters, why not create an object of consolidation useful for them? Put here the negative amplification, instead of the insightful int (since now the ring can cover that) or the insightful negative amplification (before the insightful you have to have the regular stat covered)

I would really like the nearly finished to have extended to more stats than you have designed. It would have been a perfect way to cover gaps in the equipment and allow us some flexibility. I can not express how great is my frustration with the gear tetris game that is now the equipment, and how much I fear every renewal of loot, which instead of being a source of interest and expectation, becomes a tedious task of trying to fit essential stats. Please, for following packs, focus less on raising the numbers of the stats and more on giving us flexibility to be able to equip all the stats we need. There are too many builds in DDO for a rigid itemization. So more systems like nearly finished, please, in future packs. But with a wider range of possibilities, please.

[Iriale]

Since I'm not actually in the office and haven't had a chance to respond individually when things are done, I figured I'd give you guys a quick summary. Here's my Monday Morning to-do list for loot so far:


1. Replace quell with vorpal on greataxe again
2. Spice up Raid Repeater
3. Spice up Raid Goggles
4. Insightful doublestrike in Part of the Family set somewhere
5. Int Cloak to Quality Int again
6. Put Ghostly on Ruby Ring instead of sheltering
7. Make proc effect on stone boots, drop anchoring

oh you're going to change the cloak to quality int ... okay. But I still think that negative amplification should go here. Can not be replaced by one of these stats? Maybe profane attributes? That's what the litany is for, and there are no programmed trinkets in this pack...

I'm glad you eliminate anchoring. It's a problem for builds like bard, who use haste. The spells are already too devalued to make them useless.

[noinfo]

Isn't this the only way to get Profane +2 DC?

You just made this is mandatory item for all casters. Especially since you put Insight stat on it as well.

Gear choices need to be hard.

I would have been happy with a +1 to give a chance to replace the shadow scale robe.
Shadow scale perhaps also needs to go to +2 to offset the fact that the heroic ring is +1.

If they did not introduce the ring their new dc set would be dead in the water.

[noinfo]

I like the new ring, but I am worried that there is a new mandatory stat (DC profane)

Its not a new stat but one not covered since shadow scale that was blocking any choice by many dc casters from migrating from slavers/shadow scale. This gives the option now.

[Aelonwy]

What a mess

You should probably consider this:
- Having armor as part of the sets with no way to avoid is a very bad idea as armor is the one item slot with very different types (docent, cloth, light, medium, heavy, metal/non metal).
- Having the sets use different slots was a bad idea as that makes it very hard to slot in other good items across sets, most noteable with the minor artifacts.

Redesign:
- Sets have items in 4 slots but only need 3 of those, preferably none of which is the armor slot but I expect that is too late to change.
- Sets use the same 4 slots across all sets
- No Minor artifacts use those 4 slots.
Much cleaner implementation.

Please make it so

Good idea.

[noinfo]

These scale based off ilevel/min level, it's likely the numbers got shuffled if it makes no sense. Just assume that higher ML > lower ML, and that raid > non-raid. If you guys are dead set on needing numbers I can hop into an internal build but it'll need to be tonight, as I'm pretty deep into something else right now.

Based on level its unlikely to be +3, remove the quality and add the feature from TF 2handeds that add +1dc and 2% insightful would be a value added change.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Then it'll conflict with the belt :P

Gonna push back on changing it, sorry all. Staying Insight.

But you decided to make the belt not be a Pale Master Belt.......

If these stats are not made possible within three items that can all be equipped at the same time, you've failed Pale Masters. We can get our DC bonuses from universal DC items, I'm fine with that and the new gear looks like it will offer just that.... but seriously, before you changed the ring and the belt away from being Pale Master Items, all of these were possible but now they aren't.

Negative healing amplification
Insightful Negative Healing Amplification
Nullification
Insightful Nullification
Intelligence
Insightful Intelligence
Quality Intelligence
Greater Boon Of Undeath

At the very least please give the cloak Greater Boon Of Undeath, Negative Healing Amplification, Insightful Negative Healing Amplification, and Nullification and make a neckslot or bracer slot item that single highhandedly replaces Legendary Acolytes lenses. You obviously want to make as few Pale Master Items as possible, well your design is missing attributes for that.........

Anyone using the intelligence to hit and damage from the Harper tree is going to want a good item to equip for multiple forms of their intelligence stat, heck............. even my artificer build is finding gearing up with this new loot to be somewhat difficult in terms of ensuring intelligence, quality intelligence, and insightful intelligence all in the same gear set.

Personally I feel Breaking the Banks should give a bonus to Open Lock, Disable Device, Search, and Spot (Mechanics skillset) rather than the niche that it currently caters to (Inquisitive builds that specifically use runearms in which are quite frankly more of a Niche than palemaster builds).

There only needs to be one quality intelligence, and one insightful intelligence source for the Pale Master equipment, since you are only making two Pale Master Items please do not give them the same stat so it doesn't stack, gearing up for a Pale Master with just two Pale Master specific items is already a cram-fest and you already took away much of what is needed and scrapped it.

[Alcides]

Citadel's Gaze Raid Helmet
Minimum Level:29

• Incite +64%
• Legendary Affirmation
• Command +11 This armor or shield always appears brilliant and gleaming, no matter what the conditions and despite all attempts to paint over or obscure it. Coveted by military leaders of all sorts, it carries a powerful aura that grants a +11 Insightful bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. Command armor and command shields make their owners very noticeable, imposing a -6 penalty on Hide checks.
• Healer's Bounty This shield has a small percentage chance to cast a Heal spell on you when you take damage.

Standard Issue Sigil Necklace
Minimum Level: 15/29

• Intimidate +22
• Protection +6/+17
• Spell Saves +6/+17
• Parrying +3/+10

Magical sheltering is too easy to obtain, please change these items as to include legendary affirmation on the Helm to make it a true tank's helm!

Magical sheltering is not that easy to obtain with just Sharn gear and removing it from the tank set neck is a bad move. Changing parrying on the neck would be a better change out for intimidate.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Magical sheltering is not that easy to obtain with just Sharn gear and removing it from the tank set neck is a bad move. Changing parrying on the neck would be a better change out for intimidate.

Citadel's Gaze Raid Helmet
Minimum Level:29

• Magical Sheltering +19/+54
• Legendary Affirmation
• Spell Saves +6/+17
• Healer's Bounty This shield has a small percentage chance to cast a Heal spell on you when you take damage.

Standard Issue Sigil Necklace
Minimum Level: 15/29

• Intimidate +22
• Protection +6/+17
• Command +11 This armor or shield always appears brilliant and gleaming, no matter what the conditions and despite all attempts to paint over or obscure it. Coveted by military leaders of all sorts, it carries a powerful aura that grants a +11 Insightful bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. Command armor and command shields make their owners very noticeable, imposing a -6 penalty on Hide checks.
• Incite +64%

Magical sheltering is totally easily obtained through the Trinket Slot, but hey if it would be demanded, I'd say this would make for the way I'd like to see it done

[Tilomere]

It depends on the build and level you are playing. For example, a pure warpriest cleric that needs DC casting to not die, healing, tankyness, melee or ranged capability to kill things... needs much higher efficiency than a crit stacked great crossbow build.

In fact, since clerics all end up as 0 dps supports in end-game, it's already been proven that it is mathematically impossible to make an end-game warpriest.

... except that I run with them every day.. so there's that..

too many people running around stating absolutes as if it were an accepted fact, not just a disguised opinion. LOTS of posts crying about how 'this or that makes such & such unplayable....'.. wut?

This is what I'm talking about, from here:





Notice that the hybrid caster dcs are 50-70 DC lower than tacticals, such as on snowslide. To make a hybrid druid work, they had to redo many spells into tactical abilities, because it is mathematically impossible to otherwise have the hybrid character work due to item slot efficiency. However, druids aren't the only hybrids in the game. And even after they did that, druid hybrid still didn't function, so they had to add a no-spell pen no-save mass confusion in on top.

Rangers, clerics, fvs, paladins, artis, wiz, sorcs, warlocks, and bards are also hybrids, and none of them have this remake of their spells to tactical abilities, and none of them have the no-save no spell pen mass AoE CC on top. The item efficiency isn't high enough to run these as whole classes at the difficulty I want. I'm being told to choose, but it's not a good choice of wether or not to enhance A, B, or C. I'm being told to sacrifice all but one of A, B, or C, which really isn't a choice, and is simply telling me to not play such a class that has A, B, and C in the first place.

In regards to light/medium (caster) armor for U42
Lynnabel said 'no'

Class balance and MRR probably should be revisited at some point, since it adjusted the value of armor and race/class/gear balance, and the fix of just not allowing certain classes of characters to wear armor even though lore and class balance from before MRR says they should isn't going to be very popular.

[GramercyRiff]

Why change insightful physical sheltering in favor of ghostly? Why not add ghostly to Shadow Sprinters instead? It'll make those boots look better as well as fit the theme of the boots.

I suggested this same thing and Lynn said nah. I think ghostly makes the most sense for those boots of all the items.

Any kind of insightful sheltering is also just too rare in this game.

[FuryFlash]

I suggested this same thing and Lynn said nah. I think ghostly makes the most sense for those boots of all the items.

Any kind of insightful sheltering is also just too rare in this game.

Agreed with this. Boots should have ghostly instead of quality resistance, and the ring should keep insightful sheltering.

[Alcides]

Citadel's Gaze Raid Helmet
Minimum Level:29

• Magical Sheltering +19/+54
• Legendary Affirmation
• Spell Saves +6/+17
• Healer's Bounty This shield has a small percentage chance to cast a Heal spell on you when you take damage.

Standard Issue Sigil Necklace
Minimum Level: 15/29

• Intimidate +22
• Protection +6/+17
• Command +11 This armor or shield always appears brilliant and gleaming, no matter what the conditions and despite all attempts to paint over or obscure it. Coveted by military leaders of all sorts, it carries a powerful aura that grants a +11 Insightful bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. Command armor and command shields make their owners very noticeable, imposing a -6 penalty on Hide checks.
• Incite +64%

Magical sheltering is totally easily obtained through the Trinket Slot, but hey if it would be demanded, I'd say this would make for the way I'd like to see it done

I don't think it's right to put 54 MRR on the raid helm. It should go on the necklace. A lot of folks may not have access to a guild that can run the raid successfully. It's harder to execute that Killing Time. Some guilds I know have tanks but keeping stuff like regular MRR out of their hands reduces access and limits play for them. I'd say moving the command to the necklace in place of parrying is fine. And then having affirmation and heal on the raid helm works nicely since it allows a choice between the blue helm or raid helm interchangably for more builds.

[Greantun]

On both the heroic and legendary version of the Standard Issue Sigil, the description has, what I believe, bad English. I am not an English major so I could be wrong, it just doesn't look right.

Marks you as a member of the Watch, or as someone's who's able to rob a member of the Watch. Either way, it'll help you fit in.

Shouldn't it be:

Marks you as a member of the Watch, or as someone who's able to rob a member of the Watch. Either way, it'll help you fit in.

[Paisheng]

Platinum Knuckles Handwraps
Minimum Level: 15/29
These Handwraps take both your Gloves and Weapon slots - equipping a pair of gloves will unequip these Handwraps, and vice versa.

• Transmuted Platinum This weapon, made of transmuted platinum, is slightly magically unstable, and has a chance to transfer its magic to those it strikes. Struck enemies have a small chance to turn into transmuted platinum, preventing all movement, with a DC of 35 negating this effect.
• Impact I/V
• Lesser Boneshatter/Bonesplitter
• Seeker +8/+21
• Doublestrike +9%/+23%
• Spiked This weapon is studded with vicious spikes, causing it to deal piercing damage in addition to its normal damage types.

Good Flavor -- something different is good.

Almost Acceptable coverage of utilizing both the glove and weapon spot. But it is short an effect or two (gloves normally would have 4 effects) and it wipes out likely 2 augment spots.
Also the 35/70 DC is too low for reaper unless the DC is increased by tactical dc enhancements, etc. It will likely mean only fails on 1s so depending how often it goes into effect there really is less than a 5% chance of most mobs successfully turning into platinum.

To correct this I am hoping there are like 3 augment spots rather than the usual two in legendary wraps and that the crit range is something special like 18-20 (not counting the Impact -- in other words with the impact they should be 17-20). Then there is a tough choice of trading off more powerful wraps for considerably less defensive abilities.

[timwaylan]

The game currently has no decent named light/heavy crossbows, and after the introduction of the inquisitive enhancement tree I would like this to change, so it's actually a viable option for endgame. I suggest changing the weapon to the following:

The Hallowed Splinters Heavy Crossbow

• Upgrade Effect: Fetters of Unreality
• Soul Tear This weapon tears at the soul of your foes, reducing their PRR and Healing Amplification.
• Cursed Maelstom This weapon is wracked with a dangerous and volatile curse. Striking an enemy has a chance to place a random, debilitating, and deadly debuff on your foe.
• Improved Destruction

---

Hey Lynnabel, have you considered the changes I suggested?

I'm guessing thats a no. :/

Nevertheless, even if you ignore my suggestion, I hope it will be changed in a way that makes it a more viable DPS weapon for high reaper/endgame content.

[TinyAvain]

Our scaling effects are set by an internal power level, not by hand. If we change this, it will change all scaling fortification in the game.

Not saying we're not going to change it, just letting you know - these numbers are not set up like you think they're set up. It's a curve, not a scatterplot

perhaps insightful fortification where level appropriate? or dusk/ghostly?

[blerkington]

Dysfunctional, ill-conceived, or preconceived bias? From the repetitive overlapping of stats and abilities, to the sheer amount of named Items that are not part of any set. To the boring attempt at fun with weak procs and out dated effects. Raven Loft will never be rivaled it remains your best work to date, a closer case study of its success would have greatly benefited this expansion.

I was happy with most of the content in Ravenloft, but the loot left a lot to be desired. Some of it was good but there also seemed to be a lot of missing effects, bad effects, odd combinations and redundancy. There seems to be similar problems with Sharn loot so far too. It may work well for some mainstream builds but it doesn't work well for others.

On a number of other occasions, I've complained about the four effects per item limitation with gear design. But what I discovered, after spending some time seeing what effects I'd put on an ideal gearset of my own design, is four could actually be enough. It would be tight, but it could work.

The core problem really seems to be how the gear we're being given all fits together so poorly, so that to get a desirable effect or two you might end up with two or three other effects on an item that aren't useful. Having more effects per item would give more leeway for adding flavour effects and catering to different builds rather than producing some of these dreadful items.

Anyway, I'd prefer that my criticisms of the loot be left in my own words rather than you editing them when quoting me. I didn't call the gear designers blind but that is what the quote you used was changed to say, among other things. That is really poor form and something you should definitely not be doing.

Thanks.

[Iriale]

I was happy with most of the content in Ravenloft, but the loot left a lot to be desired. Some of it was good but there also seemed to be a lot of missing effects, bad effects, odd combinations and redundancy. There seems to be similar problems with Sharn loot so far too. It may work well for some mainstream builds but it doesn't work well for others.

On a number of other occasions, I've complained about the four effects per item limitation with gear design. But what I discovered, after spending some time seeing what effects I'd put on an ideal gearset of my own design, is four could actually be enough. It would be tight, but it could work.

The core problem really seems to be how the gear we're being given all fits together so poorly, so that to get a desirable effect or two you might end up with two or three other effects on an item that aren't useful. Having more effects per item would give more leeway for adding flavour effects and catering to different builds rather than producing some of these dreadful items.

+1. The limitation of 4 slots is a bad measure to prevent the powercreep and deficient in terms of standardization of the loot. And not only because there are much stronger effects than others, so an item with 5 slots but less strong effects could be much less op than one with 3 slots but strong effects. Devs would do much better to worry less about the number of slots, and more about the ever increasing numbers.

Of course, four slots may be enough, but that eliminates the possibility of objects such as the so-called (and ignored) object of consolidation of trapper skills that is useful to be carried permanently instead as swap. And if devs continue to break essential stats like resistance or sheltering, those four slots will stop being sufficient; for the moment, the only thing that saves in this sense is that with slavers we can build sheltering and resistance in the same item... as much as I'm bored of that pack

In truth, my golden dream about the loot implies a stagnation, or at least a very discreet growth of the numbers, but a greater flexibility in terms of the effects and slots to choose. Currently equipping some builds is a nightmare. DDO has too much variability to put a rigid strap in the itemization. I do not understand why so much emphasis on improving the enhancements of the classes to make the hybrids viable, if then they do not give them support in the loot.

I've run out of frustration asking for more effects consolidation items, flexibility on our part to choose in which slot some of those effects are going (that is, more crafting systems, or recycling of the old ones) and a more orderly design with generic items useful for all builds and also specific archetype / role items that share the same slots to avoid conflicts like those we are seeing with sharn, where there are necessary objects for the same build that share the same slot, with which one excludes the other. There is no loss for anyone if the item pale master competes for the same slot with the item for the clerical turn undead or the assesinate and SA of the assassin. But there is loss for all when items needed for the same archetype are designed in the same slot. But while the enchantments are scattered without order by the items, instead of concentrating to make items with a more focused functionality, we will continue to see the kind of conflicts that are in the loot of sharn, and there was with RL.

Hard choices do not mean having to choose between essential stats; that destroys the loot and frustrates players. Hard choices mean choosing between greater efficiency between two terrains without destroying the overall efficiency of the build or its supervening capabilities. Because a character should not be able to do everything, but he should be competent. And things like going up the numbers in bonus types like quality, which should be used to make choices, are detrimental to this system. Because if those numbers grow, they become indispensable to make the character viable. Do you remember when the insightful values were entirely optional and only gave an up to the efficiency of the character? Now, with values of +9 and +10 they are never more optional and instead they are mandatory. We are going through that path now with quality. And designers introducing more bonus types as profane or exceptional, as if there were no longer excess loot types. It only amazes me that it did not occur to them to bring the sacred bonus as well.


-----

In short: a little more flexibility at the time that we can choose the slots where the effects go, more effects consolidation objects, less bonus types and more different effects (such as those that they are trying to rescue, with more or less success on the last updates... well done), and a more orderly design where the essential items for all the characters do not compete in a slot with the particular items of each archetype ... nor do these particular items compete with each other!

It would be much healthier for the sanity of all of us, and it would be much easier for devs to design the loot, saving headaches like those we have seen in these threads. It would also facilitate game balance in the sense that what would change most would not be the numbers (which could moderate its vertiginous rate of rise), but the auxiliary enchantments (concordant opp, dust, ooze, weighty asset, deific focus, vorpal, etc, that type of enchantments), the slots where the bonuses appear (oh yes, having several items with similar enchantments but in different slots is useful, because the slot that has free a build may not be the one that has free another build), and the choice between equipping or not optional values as quality or profane. And how much nicer the game would be if the loot, instead of being a boring number puzzle, was a game of choices between amusing enchantments as they are the kind of auxiliary enchantments that I have just mentioned.

Personally, replacing an object that gives me +19 for another that gives me +21 does not give me any expectation or excitement. Now, if I were to replace an object with another of the same bonus, but to give me another kind of proc or more dynamic possibility, it would be much more attractive to me. And I do not know how many times I have to say how much I hate the gear tetris game, for me that headache encourages me more to not buy content, than to buy it. Although I guess I'll have to keep dreaming ... I do not see much chance that the game is heading in that direction.


I wish SSG would hire you as an advisor, blerkington. Almost everything you say has a lot of sense. Although I would be happy that they made a little more case to your posts.