Cleave Animations w/ VKF are interminably slow.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I like the actual animation. However, the way it is executed is intolerable. With any other fighting style there is no pause before the Cleave/GCleave activates, no break in the attack chain. Any pause after the Cleave/GCleave is barely noticeable and can be twitched out of.

However, using Cleave/GCleave with VKF does not flow as smoothly. Currently playing a lvl 10, Aasimar 2ftr/3monk/5rogue (4ftr/6monk/10rogue planned) When Cleave is triggered the attack chain stops, hands get raised in the air then are brought down and the Cleave occurs. Then you wait while your character resets before starting regular attacks, using a monk strike or anything.

The wind-up/pause is even more unbearable trying to use Momentum Swing/Lay Waste in LD on a character using VKF.

Really, the ONLY fighting style I can use with Momentum Swing/Lay Waste in LD is SWF. The animation on ANY other fighting style with activating those abilities is slow and poorly implemented.

This is not the only ability in the game that causes your character to totally derp out and not do anything. There are many I recall getting my panties in a bunch about, but cannot recall what they were. Take bluff for instance though...

After Bluffing an opponent I have to hit Trip or Sunder so I can continue attacking without the animation. The Trip is the standard quick and recoverable animation but Sunder is weird.

I am not sure about Improved Feint. It seems like a key Feat for any Rogue wanting to get SA on a group of mobs but I've not ever used it because I recall it fails if you don't sit there and wait after hitting it.

EVERY special activated attack or ability SHOULD flow smoothly and seamlessly with the regular attack chain without pause or long wind-up and recover animations that lock your character out of doing anything.

[Steelstar]

I like the actual animation. However, the way it is executed is intolerable. With any other fighting style there is no pause before the Cleave/GCleave activates, no break in the attack chain. Any pause after the Cleave/GCleave is barely noticeable and can be twitched out of.

However, using Cleave/GCleave with VKF does not flow as smoothly. Currently playing a lvl 10, Aasimar 2ftr/3monk/5rogue (4ftr/6monk/10rogue planned) When Cleave is triggered the attack chain stops, hands get raised in the air then are brought down and the Cleave occurs. Then you wait while your character resets before starting regular attacks, using a monk strike or anything.

The wind-up/pause is even more unbearable trying to use Momentum Swing/Lay Waste in LD on a character using VKF.

Really, the ONLY fighting style I can use with Momentum Swing/Lay Waste in LD is SWF. The animation on ANY other fighting style with activating those abilities is slow and poorly implemented.

Here's what appears to be going down:

• All Cleaves take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style. All Momentum Swings take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style*.
• Vistani Knife Fighter's Cleave and Momentum Swing animations are significantly shorter (by about 15% for Cleave, by about 47% for Momentum Swing) than standard Dual Wielding Cleave/Momentum Swing animations. However, as we just said above, the attacks themselves take a standardized amount of time... So when the animation ends, you see the character pause until they can start attacking again.
• (The reason the TWF version can be twitched out of is that the animation is slightly longer than the time the ability takes.)

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

SWF's animation looks faster than some of the other Momentum Swing animations, but ultimately the time between when the attack starts and when you can attack again should always be the same.



(*We're fixing something in VKF's Cleave animation specifically where it may not have been enforcing that 100% of the time, but the difference is a few frames.)

[Thar]

Here's what appears to be going down:

• All Cleaves take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style. All Momentum Swings take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style*.
• Vistani Knife Fighter's Cleave and Momentum Swing animations are significantly shorter (by about 15% for Cleave, by about 47% for Momentum Swing) than standard Dual Wielding Cleave/Momentum Swing animations. However, as we just said above, the attacks themselves take a standardized amount of time... So when the animation ends, you see the character pause until they can start attacking again.
• (The reason the TWF version can be twitched out of is that the animation is slightly longer than the time the ability takes.)

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

SWF's animation looks faster than some of the other Momentum Swing animations, but ultimately the time between when the attack starts and when you can attack again should always be the same.



(*We're fixing something in VKF's Cleave animation specifically where it may not have been enforcing that 100% of the time, but the difference is a few frames.)

Can you fix whirlwind attack with weapons? it's considerably slower than cleave as the animation circles twice but hitting once before you can attack again.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Can you fix whirlwind attack with weapons? it's considerably slower than cleave as the animation circles twice but hitting once before you can attack again.

I have tempest w/ whirlwind and see the character kind of raise left leg before animation. Kind of like he's winding up for a pitch in baseball. I don't mind it as that attack doesn't seem to have any delay after the attack to normal attacks as mentioned in this thread. if it does, I've never been bothered by it.

[HastyPudding]

Here's what appears to be going down:

• All Cleaves take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style. All Momentum Swings take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style*.
• Vistani Knife Fighter's Cleave and Momentum Swing animations are significantly shorter (by about 15% for Cleave, by about 47% for Momentum Swing) than standard Dual Wielding Cleave/Momentum Swing animations. However, as we just said above, the attacks themselves take a standardized amount of time... So when the animation ends, you see the character pause until they can start attacking again.
• (The reason the TWF version can be twitched out of is that the animation is slightly longer than the time the ability takes.)

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

SWF's animation looks faster than some of the other Momentum Swing animations, but ultimately the time between when the attack starts and when you can attack again should always be the same.



(*We're fixing something in VKF's Cleave animation specifically where it may not have been enforcing that 100% of the time, but the difference is a few frames.)

What about the actual attack speed of vistani? I've heard some people say the attack speed of the twf dagger animation seems slower than other twf animations.

[Thrudh]

What about the actual attack speed of vistani? I've heard some people say the attack speed of the twf dagger animation seems slower than other twf animations.

VKF attack speed with dagger seems FASTER to me than normal TWF, actually. And it should be 5% faster if you have the capstone.

But even without the capstone, it seems faster to me.

But that's just an eye-test. I'd love to hear a dev answer on this as well.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Here's what appears to be going down:

• All Cleaves take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style. All Momentum Swings take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style*.
• Vistani Knife Fighter's Cleave and Momentum Swing animations are significantly shorter (by about 15% for Cleave, by about 47% for Momentum Swing) than standard Dual Wielding Cleave/Momentum Swing animations. However, as we just said above, the attacks themselves take a standardized amount of time... So when the animation ends, you see the character pause until they can start attacking again.
• (The reason the TWF version can be twitched out of is that the animation is slightly longer than the time the ability takes.)

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

SWF's animation looks faster than some of the other Momentum Swing animations, but ultimately the time between when the attack starts and when you can attack again should always be the same.


(*We're fixing something in VKF's Cleave animation specifically where it may not have been enforcing that 100% of the time, but the difference is a few frames.)

Thanks for the reply. I had the feeling the length of time was indeed standardized but the perception of the animations make it them seem longer. I did not use Cleave on my 1st VKF build 2Wiz/9Mnk/9Paladin Deep Gnome so did not notice. The KoTC Cleaves and Holy Retribution animations were fine although the last swing in the regular attack chain was a standard TWF swing on the Deep Gnome.

[droid327]

[*]Vistani Knife Fighter's ... Momentum Swing animations are significantly shorter ... by about 47%

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

ORRRR....

You just double the animation for Momentum Swing so you spin around twice, since you'd need to roughly double the duration anyway

That might look a lot more dynamic than a slo-mo spin....

[Steelstar]

What about the actual attack speed of vistani? I've heard some people say the attack speed of the twf dagger animation seems slower than other twf animations.

Without including style-specific boosts (like the VKF tree capstone), the time to perform a full attack chain is almost identical.

[blerkington]

Without including style-specific boosts (like the VKF tree capstone), the time to perform a full attack chain is almost identical.

Would you please be more specific about the difference, as in put a number on it?

When Vistani first came out, the DPS testing I read suggested the attack rate was slower if we took Knife Training 1 resulting in significantly reduced DPS. I noticed something in a recent set of patch notes suggesting this has been corrected but I haven't seen any testing since then or done any myself.

There was also some suggestion certain special attacks like assassinate were delayed if we also had Knife Training 1. Since I've avoided that enhancement like the plague ever since I started using the tree I don't know if this is still the case. But it's popular with other melee rogues so receiving some developer assurances taking that enhancement isn't still gimping our builds would be great.

Thanks.

[Elfishski]

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

Thanks for this kind of fix - the feeling of smooth flow in combat without any of those clunky momentary pauses before the next action will happen makes a big difference to the fun of playing some builds over others, DPS totally aside.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Another level and my BAB went up.

After playing around with Cleave in game with a different perspective it is really not that bad at all. Not quite as fast/smooth as doing a Cleave with HW and Flurry of Blows but it is not bad at all.

Honestly, maybe the pauses I was seeing were due to using Fan of Knives in the middle of an attack chain when adds show up.

[Marza5]

Here's what appears to be going down:

• All Cleaves take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style. All Momentum Swings take the same amount of time between when you start the attack and when you can attack normally again regardless of animation style*.
• Vistani Knife Fighter's Cleave and Momentum Swing animations are significantly shorter (by about 15% for Cleave, by about 47% for Momentum Swing) than standard Dual Wielding Cleave/Momentum Swing animations. However, as we just said above, the attacks themselves take a standardized amount of time... So when the animation ends, you see the character pause until they can start attacking again.
• (The reason the TWF version can be twitched out of is that the animation is slightly longer than the time the ability takes.)

The ultimate fix for that (as counter-productive as this is going to sound) is to put VKF's special attack animations to roughly standard length... slowing them down significantly. It won't be worse than other Cleaves/Momentum Swings (and technically not any worse than it is now, as the number of attacks you're getting and the time between them will not change at all), but it would flow significantly better.

SWF's animation looks faster than some of the other Momentum Swing animations, but ultimately the time between when the attack starts and when you can attack again should always be the same.



(*We're fixing something in VKF's Cleave animation specifically where it may not have been enforcing that 100% of the time, but the difference is a few frames.)

I know this is a little bit after the fact but at least as far as Eldritch Strike is concerned this does not appear to be true. The delay after hitting ES and being able to use another skill is longer, as well as the time it takes from hitting ES and the actual hit connecting (I am assuming these things are related). Maybe this is specific to only Eldritch Strike but it is rather noticeable.