the fear of the soloist.

[Selvera]

Any quest in necro 2&3&4 can be solod witha hire
Necro 1 has a quest that requires 4 bodies on switches though helds mobs, pets, hires and turrets can fill that job too.

I'm thinking of the one where you pass the gear through the grate to the other player to activate the levers to open the way backwards/forwards.

[DYWYPI]

The quest: https://ddowiki.com/page/Tomb_of_the_Forbidden can be "soloed" with Hireling or Pet. I've done all the Necropolis quests using that method before, i.e. just myself and one Hireling. :-)

[Bjond]

The biggest fear that people have for hybrids are soloists.

To put that in context, I don't think he's talking about folks being afraid of inviting a solo/hybrid-built character into a group. It's more being afraid this game will turn into a collection of solo'ers that will eschew groups due to their character being able to complete all group content while solo.

It's a valid fear. I left SWL because all I saw was a year of solo with *maybe* grouping for raids now and then after leveling my gear. You can group in SWL, it's just that the solo stuff was both more productive and you couldn't LFG while doing those productive solo instances even if you would have dropped that solo in a heartbeat to group. I like grouping in MMOs, especially when it's more than a mad zerg rush to the finish line.

Unfortunately, it's looking like DDO is similar. There are groups, but they're not doing the gear farming I need as a new player. Once I've got a TR set squared away, it looks like it will be moderately easy to group for "dailies", but that's the "mad zerg rush" style of grouping. It beats solo, but not by a lot.

The main issue I see in DDO with grouping is that if you want to have phenomenal group synergy, the groupies will have to (mostly) forgo solo'ing or even grouping with a different group than their regular static. Builds here can be incredibly idiosyncratic and completely useless outside their designed niche; eg. my bard can CC, but did you mean disco/fascinate or helpless/hold -- both CC, but vastly different group styles when using either.

It's not like FFXIV where roles are so well-defined by class that you can have a highly successful cross-server dungeon queue that automatically matches folks with groups or even raids.

So, which games have/had the best grouping?

The best MMO raiding experiences I had were back in EQ1 NTOV. Best regular grouping: FFXI and FFXIV by far with Tera & GW2 on the horizon. Best PvP: SWToR (omg that was fun) with Aion a distant 2nd due to gear imbalances.

[minkus32]

I solo because I never get a chance to do anything in a group. If I'm a rogue, everyone just runs through the trap anyway and just chugs 10 pots after. If I'm a healer, everyone can self heal. If I'm a tank, the speed 30 9th lifer is already 7 rooms ahead of you. If I'm a mage, I get to buff at the start, after that mobs die so quickly 60% of my spells are wasted.

All the barrels are intact at the end of the quest. That's an anathema to me. Optionals are skipped. extras missed, nobody talks in chat. Only a "hello" at the start of the dungeon and "ty 4 grp" at the end.

When I solo, every barrel is smashed, every optional (thats possible to do depending on build) is done. I can cast spells, I can hit stuff. I can spend more than 3 milliseconds at a chest seeing if the item I looted is ok for my build...I can spend time making room for loot if my backpack is full. I can backtrack and use shrines I missed. I can plan. I can make time to get a cuppa mid dungeon.

I group when I need to if I need quick xp but I really do not enjoy it one bit. Every now and then you luck out and get a nice n slow group. Or I can spend 2 nights a week grouping with friends (which I do).

This is me....I do not enjoy groups even a little bit. I don't play enough to know the dungeons, nor am I as skilled as those that play all the time. Nothing like being the lame duck running behind everyone while they do the quest. Thanks, but I don't need the experience that much. Running raids where I can't actually take the time to figure out the puzzles because everyone is trying to set a land speed record to get to the next stage isn't fun.

I like to actually learn the dungeons and try and find everything. I'll spend a few hours on a dungeon and that's my play time for the night....not, lets see if I can get 100k experience in 30 minutes....

One of my friends on here plays all the time, but when we go through dungeons, its a little more controlled and satisfying...vs the zerge through to get to the end....

[Arctigis]

It's interesting to see some of the age old opinions crawling from out of the
woodwork.


It's too easy to solo, that's why there are no groups...
We need to make it too hard to solo so there are more groups...
We need more mechanics which make quests impossible to solo...
etc.


None of these address why so many people (purportedly) are choosing to
solo rather then join or start/create groups. Making soloing hard is not
going to increase groups - it's going to further reduce an already terminal
player base. The game needs to include as many playstyles as possible
to maintain critical mass and keep revenue coming in. I suspect the number
of people who are 'floating groupers' is actually quite small.

Look at what's stopping people who want to group from grouping and see if
any of those things are fixable. Leave those who don't want to group alone.

[banjo174]

It's too easy to solo, that's why there are no groups...

Its not even that its to easy to solo. Its that forming groups actually more commonly than not, wastes more time. Can't tell you how many idiots I will have join my groups.

[DaviMOC]

Its not even that its to easy to solo. Its that forming groups actually more commonly than not, wastes more time. Can't tell you how many idiots I will have join my groups.

I feel like you resumed alot on those few words. When is more of a benefit than a risk to join/form a group? I think its possible to make groups more interesting without depreciating solo player experience. Raw difficulty increase is the most boring and ineffective way to that. It hurts the group and solo experience and players will overcome it with the right amount of reincarnations and gear farming. In other hand group synergy experience could be good enough to get soloist to join groups. While characters focused on healing, damaging or tanking gets so few benefits for the focused build, splashing just a little bit can give you access to a couple of heals, UMD or raise some defenses and those can make a character totally independent.

In simpler words: Solo should work and be viable as even group players likes to play solo sometimes and thats what kept alot of us on this game until now.No one wants it to get worse. But grouping should be more synergic. Specialized groups would rarely/hardly do better than a grouped self sufficient individuals. Actually you may have better results with a group of soloist built characters as they can divide and complete multiple tasks and also because specialized groups efficiency do not surpass the micromanagement added to a group that needs player interactions and collaboration. Damm, we actually have overpowered characters/builds that are more effective than a full group of newer specialized or solo built characters just because grouping lacks alot on synergy.

[Arctigis]

Its not even that its to easy to solo. Its that forming groups actually more commonly than not, wastes more time.

Indeed. My point was that most of the traditional bellyaching against soloers is nonsense.

Can't tell you how many idiots I will have join my groups.

Yeah, unfortunately that doesn't come under 'fixable'

[Ulfo]

Can't tell you how many idiots I will have join my groups.

And it is easily explainable - similar reaches for similar... 8)

[Chai]

I know your talking about reaper here... but i want to point out that this play stile is exactly what the stealth play stile seeks to achieve. Thus by this definition stealthy gameplay is cheese. Might want to rephrase this if thats not your intention.

Not true at all.

Furthermore, more often than not when stealth worked back in the day it usually took longer to complete quests using that playstyle. In cases where it made quest completion shorter, it was multiplicitively more risky to play this way, and when more risk is taken, higher reward SHOULD be on the table.

Keep in mine we arent talking about running past all mobs just to hit the completion objective. We are talking about stealth PLAY. When people use it to game the system that should have been addressed separately, rather than in the blanket method it was addressed.

[Chai]

It's interesting to see some of the age old opinions crawling from out of the
woodwork.


It's too easy to solo, that's why there are no groups...
We need to make it too hard to solo so there are more groups...
We need more mechanics which make quests impossible to solo...
etc.


None of these address why so many people (purportedly) are choosing to
solo rather then join or start/create groups. Making soloing hard is not
going to increase groups - it's going to further reduce an already terminal
player base. The game needs to include as many playstyles as possible
to maintain critical mass and keep revenue coming in. I suspect the number
of people who are 'floating groupers' is actually quite small.

Look at what's stopping people who want to group from grouping and see if
any of those things are fixable. Leave those who don't want to group alone.

With 5 difficulty settings, one of which having 10 gradients, no one is asking for solo to be more difficult in all of them.

Getting rid of group play by having the game solo-able at the highest setting is just as negatively impacting on head count retention as getting rid of soloing by making it too difficult to solo the lower settings. But hey, with all these different settings, why specifically cant the game have spaces for both?

The soloers will of course avoid talking about the real elephant in the room here. I figured id give it a shot anyhow.

[Cantor]

I feel like you resumed alot on those few words. When is more of a benefit than a risk to join/form a group? I think its possible to make groups more interesting without depreciating solo player experience. Raw difficulty increase is the most boring and ineffective way to that. It hurts the group and solo experience and players will overcome it with the right amount of reincarnations and gear farming. In other hand group synergy experience could be good enough to get soloist to join groups. While characters focused on healing, damaging or tanking gets so few benefits for the focused build, splashing just a little bit can give you access to a couple of heals, UMD or raise some defenses and those can make a character totally independent.

In simpler words: Solo should work and be viable as even group players likes to play solo sometimes and thats what kept alot of us on this game until now.No one wants it to get worse. But grouping should be more synergic. Specialized groups would rarely/hardly do better than a grouped self sufficient individuals. Actually you may have better results with a group of soloist built characters as they can divide and complete multiple tasks and also because specialized groups efficiency do not surpass the micromanagement added to a group that needs player interactions and collaboration. Damm, we actually have overpowered characters/builds that are more effective than a full group of newer specialized or solo built characters just because grouping lacks alot on synergy.

bold added

The problem is people want to solo on the hardest difficulty. If you want to solo easy mode go play normal or hard. Elite+ should be balanced around grouping. (keep in mind I solo or duo 99.9% of my play) There is an option for soloing, it's selecting the right difficulty. You can never balance for a group if a random build can solo it. A lot of the things that have enabled soloing are the same things that have removed individual roles making grouping less synergistic. You cannot look at the two styles in a vacuum, it's the same content and builds. Chai is right about there being settings.

Not true at all.

Furthermore, more often than not when stealth worked back in the day it usually took longer to complete quests using that playstyle. In cases where it made quest completion shorter, it was multiplicitively more risky to play this way, and when more risk is taken, higher reward SHOULD be on the table.

Keep in mine we arent talking about running past all mobs just to hit the completion objective. We are talking about stealth PLAY. When people use it to game the system that should have been addressed separately, rather than in the blanket method it was addressed.

On this point though... I don't know how you can separate stealth play and stealth for max rewards. I remember stealthing Claw to get tokens for my first epic item (cove or mabar, I don't remember which took tokens for level 20 or if it was both). Why did I stealth claw? Because I couldn't do anything else within my play circle. So don't come and say that stealth isn't a way to play above where you are at, it is. I've also used it to avoid fights. Yes it is slower if you are sneaking and splitting mobs and killing everything, but it is way faster anytime you can use it to avoid a fight on a build that isn't going to die if it's spotted. I don't think there is a way to avoid that.

All-in-all though, they might as well restore stealth play because a good build can sneak past anything that's not a reaper/spider now and still mow down anything that sees them.

[DaviMOC]

bold added

The problem is people want to solo on the hardest difficulty. If you want to solo easy mode go play normal or hard. Elite+ should be balanced around grouping. There is an option for soloing, it's selecting the right difficulty. You can never balance for a group if a random build can solo it. A lot of the things that have enabled soloing are the same things that have removed individual roles making grouping less synergistic. You cannot look at the two styles in a vacuum, it's the same content and builds. Chai is right about there being settings.
(...)
.

I cant disagree with you that any change aiming this may end up touching the soloist playstyle. But there are some small tweaks i could think that could help changing all this without making it that worse for solo just better when applied to a group.

-Let the tank be able to tank without having headaches trying to keep aggro on him.

-Let the damage dealer have real advantage by focusing all its efforts on damage instead of having only 10-20% more damage than a character that can solo everything.

-Let the healer be busy healing without burning all the SP out and without being too late to heal the melee glass cannon that got one shooted by a randon glacing blow or because it wasnt exactly behind the monster.

If in the end of the day a soloist can still build something that will overcome any challenge by himself its ok, that IS his purpose, wasnt cheap or easy to get there but let a "weak" dependent group to be able to overcome challenges that any member could not even think about soloing it or doing it on a unbalanced team. We can boost a team power without nerfing solo ,at the worst we may end up buffing those too just a little bit.

We dont need content to be balanced over a new higher standard of full filled groups, just leave it as the way it is now, just let the groups go further than they actually go now without that much grind the solo builds have to pass. Those high reaper solo characters are the exceptions not the rule and balancing should not be focused on making those interested in groups but the weak ones more effective in groups without being carried by a stronger group member all over the place.

[cmckronos]

I'm thinking of the one where you pass the gear through the grate to the other player to activate the levers to open the way backwards/forwards.

There is a way to do it with only a hireling. How to do it is actually in the wiki: https://ddowiki.com/page/Tomb_of_the_Forbidden

For me, I like to group when i can but since returning (I left well before Ravenloft and there was no such thing as Reaper and max level was 28) I have noticed that Reaper vs Elite has really fragmented things since the levels don't align.

Regardless, most of the time, I know I will be frequently interrupted while at home and with do this or watch that or help me with this (small kids) or whatever the excuse is this time and I don't like having to be the piker constantly in groups, so I solo Elite like i have always done and if I think I'll have some uninterrupted time, then i look for pugs, but now I point back to the first thing I said...fragmentation.


Either way, could give $0.02 about server merge (outside of being very concerned that lag is god awful as it is, I can't imagine how throwing more players into the mix will result in something playable) or if bonuses are added to parties (because that isn't driving why I play solo).

[nokowi]

All-in-all though, they might as well restore stealth play because a good build can sneak past anything that's not a reaper/spider now and still mow down anything that sees them.

They never made any effort to balance stealth play for reaper, they just abandoned any effort while letting players with little investment sneak by stuff. Their zero design effort results in a system inappropriate for reaper.


If devs ever decide to focus on quality of game play and player enjoyment, they will make some changes to turn stealth into something functional that you must invest in to use, and something that is not a solo-solution through reaper difficulty.

1. Minimal investment gives minimal rewards
2. The more you invest the better it performs
3. Skilled play is rewarded (There are competing and viable real-time game play choices for which decision making really matters)

SSG fails at all three right now:

1. Minimal investment gives you almost all of the benefits of stealth
2. Auto-detection rather than opposed checks means investment beyond minimal is largely not rewarded
3. The decisions in optimal game-play are trivial (attack non moving mob, attack second so you have zero risk of getting agro, etc), as reaper is much more about minimizing risks rather than rewarding skilled play.



Skilled play would reward taking on risks for improved performance, and force the player to perfectly balance risk vs reward for optimal play.

SSG design currently rewards forced cooperation and specialization to minimize risk taking for optimal play.

[GrannyNooblet]

The more I'm learning about DDO, the more I'm sympathizing with the traditional role-play group-type folks, as much as the role-play solo folks. It's not just DDO either. It seems that nowadays, traditional groups where everyone had (past-tense) a "role" in the group are considered dinosaurs and it's all about speed & quantity (of goodies) rather than quality of game play. I play mostly solo for reasons I've said before so won't go into that. So of course I like to see "my" chosen playstyle supported. (Because the world revolves around me. Well my world does anyway, lol). But I'm at a loss to understand why RPGs, "Role-Playing" games, old and new, are now catering "primarily" to speed play, min/maxing, and power-gaming.

When I started DDO, thinking it was going to be a more traditional type rpg, and saw the choices on entering a quest, saw solo mode, normal, etc., I thought that was pretty cool. So my expectation was that the higher settings could only be done by groups. Come to find out, the higher settings are for min/maxers and speed/power gamers. Needless to say I was disappointed.

Is there any content or mode that's only for groups, designed with group "roles" in mind? I would imagine the raids are, but are they really? I haven't gotten that far in the game yet to know all the "modes." It's a bit overwhelming, tbh, and just when I think I finally understand something I find I'm wrong. lol. So if what some of the group type folks are saying is true, that there's nothing that supports their chosen playstyle, then I have to agree they have a legitimate grievance.

I have to admit, it was a bit disconcerting to me when I started, to find that the "seeming" goal in DDO is to get to the end as quickly as possible with the most powerful character possible. And if you don't, you're not "playing it right." I'm still kind of shaking my head and asking why. To what end? So that you can do....what? I may choose to play solo, but I certainly never expected to be able to do "everything" solo.

I usually hesitate to use the term role-play any more because people usually think I mean going around talking with thee & thou, etc. But truly, I think the concept of role-play is what it comes down to. Becoming the character and playing that character's role. My characters, btw, are never "toons." Is role play dead now? Is it just some relic from the past that old fogies indulge in? The "traditional" groups were every bit as much role play as the solo role player. You had a "role" in the group. I try to imagine any of the characters in The Hobbit, going it alone, bulldozing their way across the landscape and through the Orc caves to the Lonely Mountain, wiping out everything in their path at breakneck speed, reaching the Lonely Mountain and taking out Smaug in under a minute. All by themselves. lol. Strider and Gandalf were sort of "solo" types, but even they needed a group to take on something like Smaug or hordes of Orcs.

But now, even so-called "role playing" games are turning into nothing more than spreadsheets and races to the end. Why is that?

Sorry I'm rambling this morning, and I should know better than to try and be philosophical before my second cup of coffee. lol. Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir, in some cases, but I would hope the devs (in any game) pay attention to threads like these. And of course, as always, I'm hoping that role play isn't dead in today's gaming after all.

[nokowi]

it's all about speed & quantity (of goodies) rather than quality of game play.

This is correct. The quality of game play crowd has been mostly ignored since reaper inception, with the notable recent exception of listening to player feedback for changes to Amber. (Thanks to Flimsy)

All we can do is hope SSG starts focusing on quality of game play.

It's pretty easy to meet the needs of the rewards/time crowd while also designing for quality of game play, it just takes a conscious effort to focus on something other than (in addition to) balancing rewards.

[silinteresting]

Its only a matter of time. As the temporary reaper only in quest nerfs are mitigated by power creep, it will happen more and more.

this maybe true but i do remember a dev saying they have the capabilty to
make reaper harder if they want to. if as you say happens then the devs can
make it harder lets say reaper 5-10 becomes harder then its not a problem
is it.

your friend sil

[Chai]

On this point though... I don't know how you can separate stealth play and stealth for max rewards. I remember stealthing Claw to get tokens for my first epic item (cove or mabar, I don't remember which took tokens for level 20 or if it was both). Why did I stealth claw? Because I couldn't do anything else within my play circle. So don't come and say that stealth isn't a way to play above where you are at, it is. I've also used it to avoid fights. Yes it is slower if you are sneaking and splitting mobs and killing everything, but it is way faster anytime you can use it to avoid a fight on a build that isn't going to die if it's spotted. I don't think there is a way to avoid that.

All-in-all though, they might as well restore stealth play because a good build can sneak past anything that's not a reaper/spider now and still mow down anything that sees them.

Incentivizing stealth PLAY (actually playing the game rather than bypassing most of it) while disincentivizing using it to CheeseMETA® our way to huge XP/min totals etc...is not hard to do. It just takes a firm decision.

Example: Award reaper XP based on what tier of conquest you got in the dungeon. Make the conquest tiers percentile based. 18/38/58/78/98 or something similar. If you killed 26% of the mobs in the dungeon, you earned tier 1 reaper XP. If you want that juicy reaper XP, you kill 98% of the mobs.

There: I just solved the XP issue and the stealth issue all in one move. I probably solved most of the dungeon alert issue there as well. When they use the carrot approach, and tailor the reward based on the incentivized gameplay, people will begin to play that way. Those that do not are still welcome to stealth past everything or CheeseMETA the vast majority of the dungeon and collect their tier 1 RXP. /shrug.

[Chai]

this maybe true but i do remember a dev saying they have the capabilty to
make reaper harder if they want to. if as you say happens then the devs can
make it harder lets say reaper 5-10 becomes harder then its not a problem
is it.

your friend sil

At some point they would have to nerf self healing down to 0% - otherwise the power creep in the near future would just catch people back up again to the point where the "penalty" isnt punitive enough to stop people from soloing the hardest difficulty settings.

Keep in mind Im not saying we are at the point where R7-10 is a joke, but it is approaching that point. Back in the day we would have never imagined soloing elite either, but it became the standard eventually.