Rangers *still* need an update,

[Mindos]

Years ago when Druid came out I thought Rangers were gong to get an update as I assumed there would be some cross over in regards to spells and maybe the pet...nope

Arty got a pet, but that was fine right? As Rangers were more martial damage focused and arty more spell focused... that's sorta funny now with with xbows as they are these days.

Just delete the Ranger class. Yes, I'm serious. Give the Deepwood Stalker tree to the druid class with the bonus feats, leave the Arcane Archer as Elf racial accesss only, and make a new class called Tempest.

Think about it, the only thing Ranger gets is free feats. And if you ain't Tempest pure level 30, you're forgotten. Charm animal? Druid. Pet? Druid and Arti. Crowd control spells? Druid. Ranged damage? Xbows. Bow specialist? Monk hybrid. Elemental damage? Bow Eldritch Knight with splash.

Ssg? Everythings fine.

Make a one tree class, Tempest. Auto grant it the bonus' from Deepwood that people usually take and call it a day.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I do not have much faith about interest in game balance anymore,

SSG has thrown all their statements about "balance" out the window.


I know of 2 long time players that last night left the game for good over the dual wielding crossbow, endless fusillade debacle.

[Vish]

SSG has thrown all their statements about "balance" out the window.


I know of 2 long time players that last night left the game for good over the dual wielding crossbow, endless fusillade debacle.

Debacle?
Could you care to explain?

You mean it's generally op now?

[Captain_Wizbang]

You mean it's generally op now?

yup

[Vish]

Ya,
Well I figured that
Any time ssg releases new class or tree,
It's generally op
Then a year later they nerf it into the ground,
To make way for next new thing
And of course it's about selling it
Make it op so ppl will buy it

But I'm more concerned about why ppl would quit over this?
Did they give reasons?

[barecm]

The issue with getting anything done here is the unwillingness of the dev team to make the changes necessary. The “why” behind that statement is where we are at. I think they know bow use is garbage. I don’t think their old arguments of IPS and Manyshot being OP holds water anymore. As pointed out, other forms of ranged combat use IPS and have comparable abilities to Manyshot. So we are back to asking why. For years now we have been told little to nothing. I am happy to see that the players, the CUSTOMERS, will not let this go.

Let’s keep pushing until we get some action!

[Captain_Wizbang]

The issue with getting anything done here is the unwillingness of the dev team to make the changes necessary. The “why” behind that statement is where we are at. I think they know bow use is garbage. I don’t think their old arguments of IPS and Manyshot being OP holds water anymore. As pointed out, other forms of ranged combat use IPS and have comparable abilities to Manyshot. So we are back to asking why. For years now we have been told little to nothing. I am happy to see that the player, the CUSTOMERS, will not let this go.

Let’s keep pushing until we get some action!

[Mindos]

The issue with getting anything done here is the unwillingness of the dev team to make the changes necessary. The “why” behind that statement is where we are at. I think they know bow use is garbage. I don’t think their old arguments of IPS and Manyshot being OP holds water anymore. As pointed out, other forms of ranged combat use IPS and have comparable abilities to Manyshot. So we are back to asking why. For years now we have been told little to nothing. I am happy to see that the player, the CUSTOMERS, will not let this go.

Let’s keep pushing until we get some action!

Why not let the bows enhancement bonus stack with the Archer's +5 enhancement to bows bonus? I think this would be a decent change, and not overpowered right now, considering everything you just mentioned about the other ranged combatants above.

Edit: Also, does slaying arrow stop movement, or did they finally fix it?

[janave]

Why not let the bows enhancement bonus stack with the Archer's +5 enhancement to bows bonus? I think this would be a decent change, and not overpowered right now, considering everything you just mentioned about the other ranged combatants above.

Edit: Also, does slaying arrow stop movement, or did they finally fix it?

This is where i think the buffs would be best applied to, the only competitive edge bows can feat at this point is crit damage, which requires a lot of associated effects to make it work, and also boosting all other styles unless directly applied to the bow.

- GXB wins the base damage
- Shurikens wins the attack rate, proc damage, debuff stacking
- RXB sits between GXB and Shuri getting some of the best aspects of both. Technically permanent free Manyshot, with lesser damage boost.
- DualXBs will probably be joining the above once players figure out the cookie cutter builds around it, greater static fire rate than bows for sure


This leaves bows with very little space to shine. Most of the really decent stuff for bows is also available for Xbows.

All of the above are also eligible for offhand bonuses, one of the most ignored facts in all discussion .

Never seen a dev response acknowledge this, in fact it seems like item design deliberately pressing against it for even worse effect/slot utility. Stuff that should be on accessories goes directly on the bow...

The general idea is that they dont want to solve this on item level, and yet they made aberrations like Spite . So there goes that, when there is enough bias they will make it

[Chai]

The idea of using a two handed weapon (even a hand crossbow requires 2 to load as it has external ammunition) as a single in each hand and have it autoload is quite ludicrous. Besides needing to be ambidextrous to fire, loading required a free hand (auto fire is like having a magazine where you can fire a set number without reload - usually 3 shots).

This.

After completely shooting down the monkey grip feat.

[adrian69]

Best laughs I've had in a while.

With seriousness, Rangers, except AA, are in a decent spot. The improvement to put them next to kensei is to small for SSG to bother. Tempest need like 20 melee power in their existing tree to do so. Hardly worth passing yet. AA isn't an issue, the weapon is.

I personally don't care about IWE. How many animals are running around in game these days it's worth casting. I'd rather use those charges on marking targets. I guess Snare and Entangle could be useful for ranged, but it isn't worth casting a S/T spell when you have 5-8 other mobs running at you. Entangle is just easily broken by the wizard/sorc/lock your partying with.

Rangers have minor issues, but the OP gave me a decent laugh.

[adrian69]

This is where i think the buffs would be best applied to, the only competitive edge bows can feat at this point is crit damage, which requires a lot of associated effects to make it work, and also boosting all other styles unless directly applied to the bow.

- GXB wins the base damage
- Shurikens wins the attack rate, proc damage, debuff stacking
- RXB sits between GXB and Shuri getting some of the best aspects of both. Technically permanent free Manyshot, with lesser damage boost.
- DualXBs will probably be joining the above once players figure out the cookie cutter builds around it, greater static fire rate than bows for sure


This leaves bows with very little space to shine. Most of the really decent stuff for bows is also available for Xbows.

All of the above are also eligible for offhand bonuses, one of the most ignored facts in all discussion .

Never seen a dev response acknowledge this, in fact it seems like item design deliberately pressing against it for even worse effect/slot utility. Stuff that should be on accessories goes directly on the bow...

The general idea is that they dont want to solve this on item level, and yet they made aberrations like Spite . So there goes that, when there is enough bias they will make it

Historically, all these have been better than bows anyway. I think they should just give rangers a feat at level 15 that lets them use xbows with AA. Problem fixed.

[Captain_Wizbang]

With seriousness, .

Historically, all these have been better than bows anyway. I think they should just give rangers a feat at level 15 that lets them use xbows with AA. Problem fixed.

[DrawingGuy]

Others have already said it, but I also have found this thread amusing. Rangers are in a very good spot:

- Ranger comes with many feats a ranged or TWF would want, evasion, favored enemies, and support/utility spells.
-- Favored Enemies is actually quite strong with potential to provide up to 27 attack and damage (before crits/melee power) to most target types. most won't go that far, ranging from 10-21, but it is still a serious chunk of damage. Picking your favored enemies matters.
-- Ranger Spells as CC/DPS may fall flat, but as support/utility they are fine. FOM, resists, cures, and poison/disease removal are all useful. Rangers are also unique in their ability to buff stats. Jump is amazing in Heroics, and Sharn is coming out with a pair of boots that turns Jump into MP, so they will ALWAYS want the buff. Camouflage not only helps sneaking, but boosts Ethereal DPS. Pass Without a Trace makes a full stealth combo. So just see your spell book as a pocket of tools rather than seeing yourself as a "caster".

- Tempest is one of the strongest melee DPS classes in the game. It is near the top DPS pures in the game, with any slight DPS gap more than made up for with Dance of Death. Dance of Death alone destroys the concept of THF and cleaves with doing that job much better with vastly more DPS.

- Deepwood Stalker supports any build (especially ranged type) in the game. It has with SA die, PBS/SA range, defenses, positive spell power, fort bypass, exposing/sniper, etc. Inquisitive tree + DWS is actually quite strong, and if a ranged Ranger is your goal, you can be competitive DPS without issue. DWS's only realy problem is it is more of a great "second fiddle" tree rather than a main tree. It is great in support of AA or Tempest or Inquisitive rather than something you dive in yourself. I think three minor changes would fix that: Put Doublestrike and Doubleshot in the capstone. Turn Headshot from a blind to an instakill (timer/DC adjustments probably needed). Have Heavy Draw do +10 damage to Bows (as they're two handed), and also benefit from LDs Improved Power Attack .5[w]. Though I don't really think this needs to be rushed - DWS is strong enough as a support tree that people will always want to put all the spare points they can into it.

- Arcane Archer is the only precarious concern. The tree itself is fine with tons of CC, instakill procs when CC isn't needed, and a full DR busting kit. The problem is Bow. Bow used to have a pretty overpowered kit of Manyshot + Arrow of Slaying + Fury. This "Fury Shot" combo could easily do 60k+ damage to EVERYTHING in a line, and if the original system existed with todays RP values, it would be even more insane. While the Fury Shot combo isn't gone, it certainly was kicked in the teeth. Unfortunately without this burst, this left bow behind Shuri and crossbow. While I would say other throwers outside of Shuri are even worse off as they lack even the partial burst and the utility of AA (even with offhand support), that doesn't mean Bows shouldn't be looked at. I don't think that help needs to come to Arcane Archer, though, but rather to Bow itself. A boost to Manyshot to 200 Doubleshot would give a bigger burst. A slight increase to attack rate would help catch up to other ranged DPS options. With little changes like that to let Bows catch up would cause an explosion of Arcane Archers.


Rangers are strong. Outside of maybe making DWS more attractive as a main tree (which would only take some minor changes), they need no buffs or further changes. If anything, Dance of Death is too powerful. I've ran quite a few Ranger lives myself and loved each one.

[Captain_Wizbang]

- Ranger comes with many feats a ranged or TWF would want, evasion, favored enemies, and support/utility spells.

- Tempest is one of the strongest melee DPS classes in the game. .

DWS's only realy problem is it is more of a great "second fiddle" tree rather than a main tree. It is great in support of AA or Tempest or Inquisitive rather than something you dive in yourself. I think three minor changes would fix that: Put Doublestrike and Doubleshot in the capstone. Turn Headshot from a blind to an instakill (timer/DC adjustments probably needed). Have Heavy Draw do +10 damage to Bows (as they're two handed), and also benefit from LDs Improved Power Attack .5[w].
- Arcane Archer is the only precarious concern. A boost to Manyshot to 200 Doubleshot would give a bigger burst. A slight increase to attack rate would help catch up to other ranged DPS options. With little changes like that to let Bows catch up would cause an explosion of Arcane Archers.


Rangers are strong. Outside of maybe making DWS more attractive as a main tree (which would only take some minor changes), they need no buffs or further changes. If anything, Dance of Death is too powerful. I've ran quite a few Ranger lives myself and loved each one.

I never once mentioned TWF Tempest.

DWS is as you said, a filler tree.

AA needs a boost to be on par with other main class trees.

And from your perspective, you're talking about a completionist?

Rangers are STILL stuck in mediocrity.

Long bows are below shiri's & x-bows? What kind of logic is that?

The nerf to manyshot was because of the devs inability(?) to separate monk & ranger 10K star exploits?

For every person like you that rebut my thread, there will be more substantial arguments for my PoV.

[Grailhawk]

Others have already said it, but I also have found this thread amusing. Rangers are in a very good spot:

- Ranger comes with many feats a ranged or TWF would want, evasion, favored enemies, and support/utility spells.
-- Favored Enemies is actually quite strong with potential to provide up to 27 attack and damage (before crits/melee power) to most target types. most won't go that far, ranging from 10-21, but it is still a serious chunk of damage. Picking your favored enemies matters.
-- Ranger Spells as CC/DPS may fall flat, but as support/utility they are fine. FOM, resists, cures, and poison/disease removal are all useful. Rangers are also unique in their ability to buff stats. Jump is amazing in Heroics, and Sharn is coming out with a pair of boots that turns Jump into MP, so they will ALWAYS want the buff. Camouflage not only helps sneaking, but boosts Ethereal DPS. Pass Without a Trace makes a full stealth combo. So just see your spell book as a pocket of tools rather than seeing yourself as a "caster".

- Tempest is one of the strongest melee DPS classes in the game. It is near the top DPS pures in the game, with any slight DPS gap more than made up for with Dance of Death. Dance of Death alone destroys the concept of THF and cleaves with doing that job much better with vastly more DPS.

- Deepwood Stalker supports any build (especially ranged type) in the game. It has with SA die, PBS/SA range, defenses, positive spell power, fort bypass, exposing/sniper, etc. Inquisitive tree + DWS is actually quite strong, and if a ranged Ranger is your goal, you can be competitive DPS without issue. DWS's only realy problem is it is more of a great "second fiddle" tree rather than a main tree. It is great in support of AA or Tempest or Inquisitive rather than something you dive in yourself. I think three minor changes would fix that: Put Doublestrike and Doubleshot in the capstone. Turn Headshot from a blind to an instakill (timer/DC adjustments probably needed). Have Heavy Draw do +10 damage to Bows (as they're two handed), and also benefit from LDs Improved Power Attack .5[w]. Though I don't really think this needs to be rushed - DWS is strong enough as a support tree that people will always want to put all the spare points they can into it.

- Arcane Archer is the only precarious concern. The tree itself is fine with tons of CC, instakill procs when CC isn't needed, and a full DR busting kit. The problem is Bow. Bow used to have a pretty overpowered kit of Manyshot + Arrow of Slaying + Fury. This "Fury Shot" combo could easily do 60k+ damage to EVERYTHING in a line, and if the original system existed with todays RP values, it would be even more insane. While the Fury Shot combo isn't gone, it certainly was kicked in the teeth. Unfortunately without this burst, this left bow behind Shuri and crossbow. While I would say other throwers outside of Shuri are even worse off as they lack even the partial burst and the utility of AA (even with offhand support), that doesn't mean Bows shouldn't be looked at. I don't think that help needs to come to Arcane Archer, though, but rather to Bow itself. A boost to Manyshot to 200 Doubleshot would give a bigger burst. A slight increase to attack rate would help catch up to other ranged DPS options. With little changes like that to let Bows catch up would cause an explosion of Arcane Archers.


Rangers are strong. Outside of maybe making DWS more attractive as a main tree (which would only take some minor changes), they need no buffs or further changes. If anything, Dance of Death is too powerful. I've ran quite a few Ranger lives myself and loved each one.

I agree this thread is comical.

IMO Fix Bows then if needed look at Ranger trees from a ranged perspective and see if they need fixing but bows are the big elephant in the room right now not the class or its trees.

I also agree that at some point Stalker needs to be looked at to be more enticing for a melee ranger. IMO the issue with stalker is the tier 5 enhancements. What I would do to the tier 5's is:

• Extra Favored Enemy needs to be moved out of tier 5 its just not a tier 5 enhancement add it on to a core, favored hunter, or thrill of the hunt.
• Provided a AOE option (this could be added where EFE was) it doesn't need to be as good as DOD but the tree needs to have something for AOE situations. Maybe add a cleave attack that can proc off-hand, doublestrike, and offhand double strikes kind of like how Whirlwind works with handwrap monks. A Ranged version of this could also be added.
• Heavy Draw needs to be interesting for melee Ranger. I would make it add 1.5 Stat damage to main hand attacks, would also probably turn it into 1.5 Stat damage for Ranged attacks also.
• Strikes Like Lightning should also give +10% Off-hand doublestrike
• Improved Archers Focus should be 10 Melee Power. Leave the ranged part alone for now until bows are made viable then we can see if it needs tweaks.

Head shot as a insta-kill isn't a bad idea its just not where I would want to take Rangers. IMO the cores and capstone are fine its only the tier 5's that need to be made more competitive.

[Kielbasa]

The only time deepwood stalker felt like a good primary tree was when imbues worked with crossbows. Long range sneak attack, elemental damage, and all of the active abilities are better with a repeater than a bow.

Bows could use 1.5 innate stat to damage just due to not having an off hand item slot like all the other ranged options out there. They all have there own better versions of manyshot at this point.

Something like weapon versatility from vistani would be great. Have it work with bows and dexterity based melee weapons. This would be a compelling T5 to replace extra favored enemy if you were to bump that down to t3 and roll it into favored hunter. There is more melee power later in the game than ranged power anyways. Streamlining things so that you only have to focus on one of them is good for the player.

[Mindos]

- Ranger comes with many feats a ranged or TWF would want,

Rangers are also unique in their ability to buff stats.

I think we need to make the Hiding in plain sight feat better. Thats something I would want.

Unique? No other classes can buff stats? :/

[DrawingGuy]

I never once mentioned TWF Tempest.

DWS is as you said, a filler tree.

AA needs a boost to be on par with other main class trees.

And from your perspective, you're talking about a completionist?

Rangers are STILL stuck in mediocrity.

Long bows are below shiri's & x-bows? What kind of logic is that?

The nerf to manyshot was because of the devs inability(?) to separate monk & ranger 10K star exploits?

For every person like you that rebut my thread, there will be more substantial arguments for my PoV.

Being that Tempest is part of the Ranger class, and you were talking about the Ranger class as a whole, you indeed spoke of them. Rangers are extremely powerful as melee with top tier DPS in a unique package that can apply that DPS in AOE. It's insane.

DWS main issue is the T5 and capstone are not as good as Tempest for melee, AA for bow users, Vistani for throwing daggers, and Inquisitive for x-bow users. But it is great at supporting any of those. A minor tweak to tempt it as a main tree is needed, but still a strong tree.

AA is strong and doesn't need an adjustment. The fault does not lie with Ranger when it comes to Bow, but rather Bow itself as I discussed. Using AA as the main point of Bow DPS balance is the wrong way to approach it - other classes and trees use it, and to make AA the only viable way to use a bow is the wrong way to approach it. Just adjusting bow DPS alone is all AA needs, and it most definitely shouldn't be touched before bow adjustments. Though as it stands, it pretty much is the only way to use bows as the extremely powerful utility AA brings to bow is the only thing that makes the lackluster DPS bearable.

So, no, your argument is not any stronger than it was before. Ranger is an amazing class, be it on a first life or a completionist.

I agree this thread is comical.

IMO Fix Bows then if needed look at Ranger trees from a ranged perspective and see if they need fixing but bows are the big elephant in the room right now not the class or its trees.

I also agree that at some point Stalker needs to be looked at to be more enticing for a melee ranger. IMO the issue with stalker is the tier 5 enhancements. What I would do to the tier 5's is:

• Extra Favored Enemy needs to be moved out of tier 5 its just not a tier 5 enhancement add it on to a core, favored hunter, or thrill of the hunt.
• Provided a AOE option (this could be added where EFE was) it doesn't need to be as good as DOD but the tree needs to have something for AOE situations. Maybe add a cleave attack that can proc off-hand, doublestrike, and offhand double strikes kind of like how Whirlwind works with handwrap monks. A Ranged version of this could also be added.
• Heavy Draw needs to be interesting for melee Ranger. I would make it add 1.5 Stat damage to main hand attacks, would also probably turn it into 1.5 Stat damage for Ranged attacks also.
• Strikes Like Lightning should also give +10% Off-hand doublestrike
• Improved Archers Focus should be 10 Melee Power. Leave the ranged part alone for now until bows are made viable then we can see if it needs tweaks.

Head shot as a insta-kill isn't a bad idea its just not where I would want to take Rangers. IMO the cores and capstone are fine its only the tier 5's that need to be made more competitive.

* Actually if they made this a "Full Knowledge" where everything becomes your Favored Enemy would make this a beautiful enhancement that both ranged and melee would love.
* Tempest already gives the most powerful melee AOE in the game and ranged has AOE by default with IPS. While I do think cleaves should be able to doublestrike by default (one thing that would go a long way to fixing THF. Note that Whirlwind can NOT proc offhand (this was a nerf to WWA for Monks when they converted wraps to weapons as it went from a max of 8 procs to a max of 4 as they lost offhand), nor do I think it or any cleave should), trying to make DWS compete with that is just not needed. Tempest is and should remain the main tree for TWF. Making DWS compete with that along with also being great for bows would be too ridiculous. Just amp the single target DPS - this would give the potential of using bows for multi-target fights and TWF for bosses, a combo that I like.
* I do think single-typed abilities is fine, so heavy draw being bow-only works. Having it allow bows to apply 1.5 stat damage rather than the PA approach is a thought.
* Strikes like Lightning is already strong with the doubleshot and doublestrike, but the additional offhand would bring this into a single target competition against the multi target power of Tempest.
* It already provides 5 MP. While more wouldn't be amiss, this is already a powerful ability giving Ranger up to 30 (+5) Ranged Power when in single target mode. It doesn't need to be a must for melee as well.

I think we need to make the Hiding in plain sight feat better. Thats something I would want.

Unique? No other classes can buff stats? :/

"Unique" was indeed the wrong term to use. They do, however, have the most complete package of skill buffs in their spell list though. And Camouflage is indeed a unique spell that adds 3-4 SA damage to anyone in Ethereal (before MP/RP 150% scaling), and that is quite nice. Also gets props for removing the look of Bark and Stone skin so you can get those buffs and still be perty.

As for Hiding in Plain Site, it actually is a pretty big deal in the ability to how close you can get to enemies with sneaking. The +5 to Hide for Ethereal while you are statically boss fighting is also nice. The bigger deal against this is that it is available as a T1 twist from Shadowdancer, giving this unique level 17 feat to everyone.

[Grailhawk]

* Actually if they made this a "Full Knowledge" where everything becomes your Favored Enemy would make this a beautiful enhancement that both ranged and melee would love.
* Tempest already gives the most powerful melee AOE in the game and ranged has AOE by default with IPS. While I do think cleaves should be able to doublestrike by default (one thing that would go a long way to fixing THF. Note that Whirlwind can NOT proc offhand (this was a nerf to WWA for Monks when they converted wraps to weapons as it went from a max of 8 procs to a max of 4 as they lost offhand), nor do I think it or any cleave should), trying to make DWS compete with that is just not needed. Tempest is and should remain the main tree for TWF. Making DWS compete with that along with also being great for bows would be too ridiculous. Just amp the single target DPS - this would give the potential of using bows for multi-target fights and TWF for bosses, a combo that I like.
* I do think single-typed abilities is fine, so heavy draw being bow-only works. Having it allow bows to apply 1.5 stat damage rather than the PA approach is a thought.
* Strikes like Lightning is already strong with the doubleshot and doublestrike, but the additional offhand would bring this into a single target competition against the multi target power of Tempest.
* It already provides 5 MP. While more wouldn't be amiss, this is already a powerful ability giving Ranger up to 30 (+5) Ranged Power when in single target mode. It doesn't need to be a must for melee as well.

If you leave Stalker with only 3 Tier 5's for melee and Tempest with 5 (must have awesome once) then there is never a good reason to be a melee stalker, other then flavor.

If Tempest has an AOE option, as strong as DOD, and Stalker has no AOE what so ever then there will never be a reason to be a melee stalker, other then flavor.

All Tempest tier 5s are must have its always painful to leave a Tempest Tier 5 on the table. If stalker's tier 5's are't just as good and just as painful to leave on the table then there will never be a reason to be a Stalker, other then flavor.

I would like Stalker to not be just a flavor build. I really like the concept of the switch hitter a Ranger that can do Ranged and Melee equally well. Some one else suggested a versatile power ability to let them use the better of Melee or Ranged Power for both this is a great idea.