Bring Us The Understand Device Spell!

[bls904c2]

Disagreeing needs to be reasoned, proclaiming something to be added needs be questioned, there has been no questioning, therefore there has been no explanation.

Wisdom and purpose both play a role in how I conduct myself, I choose to to conduct myself in a way that is socially incompatible with people with narcissistic personality disorder, the arrogance (Trait #9) of those types drives them to assume and then treat such assumption as if fact and even go as far as to act on such to the detriment of others. They put forth negativity for the sake of negativity, and therefore there is no concrete reasoning behind their negativity aside for perhaps making others miserable. Ousting these types is just as important as disadvantaging them, especially when concerning the 7th trait (Lack of empathy) in which allows them to be especially problematic. While there may be a few cultural empowerment for these types, such disables my ability to identify with any such culture that offers such.

My culture is one of inquiry, if you do not know something, admit it and proceed to inquiry.

thinking something needs to explained is an issue in its self. one does not need to defend ones opinion or belief. it is your desire to know more and they dont have to supply it

and for my opinion to this it is a resounding NO. this is spouse to be group play not a solo game. classes need a reason to play them the more you strip away the core ability of the class so everyone is capable of doing it why have classes at all. classes are there to give specific jobs to make them unique and something other classes cant do. healers were once needed in this game but they are almost non needed except for raids and reapers. and even then it is a rarity to see a cleric or a fvs in most groups. dont kill the reason to play arti or rouge any further then it is. and with new inquisition tree it is giving away to many goodies.

and to the knock spell there is not a door in this game i have not been able to knock i love knocking the doors in haunted halls when the rouge fails

true it require pretty much a completionist toon with max dcs but it is doable

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

thinking something needs to explained is an issue in its self. one does not need to defend ones opinion or belief. it is your desire to know more and they dont have to supply it

and for my opinion to this it is a resounding NO. this is spouse to be group play not a solo game. classes need a reason to play them the more you strip away the core ability of the class so everyone is capable of doing it why have classes at all. classes are there to give specific jobs to make them unique and something other classes cant do. healers were once needed in this game but they are almost non needed except for raids and reapers. and even then it is a rarity to see a cleric or a fvs in most groups. dont kill the reason to play arti or rouge any further then it is. and with new inquisition tree it is giving away to many goodies.

and to the knock spell there is not a door in this game i have not been able to knock i love knocking the doors in haunted halls when the rouge fails

true it require pretty much a completionist toon with max dcs but it is doable

If I make a post and someone asks for something to be explained, since I made the post it is my responsibility to answer said question unless said question is overly abusive or simply unrelated to the topic, I'm fine with that responsibility as it simply makes sense. On the other hand, the whole cultural acceptance of habitually assuming things and then treating those assumptions as if fact and proceeding to speak or act on such as if fact is the whole deal that leads to the wrongful marginalization of people and as such is a conduct that needs to be quit cold Turkey in and outside of real life interactions.

So what you are saying sounds like you are against multiclassing, I've made quite a few characters with only 4 levels in rogue and managed to make all reliable trappers, though admittedly that only covers fighter and cleric builds. Eventually I stopped as a few of said multiclassing builds were screwed by an update and never provided with a lesser heart of wood as now seems to be the norm in such situations. Giving cleric understand device would not kill the reason to play artificer or rogue, it would only allow there to be a way for people who are a trapper at heart and working on their past lives an additional way to express that inner trapper when running through the cleric past lives that would normally be so annoying to them while giving those who are a team healer at heart an additional way to keep the health of their team mates up as traps tend to hurt like that. This spell is cannon, it is thematically appropriate, and it still does not make a cleric more desirable to play than an artificer. Essentially, if anything this might convince more people to try going cleric, but I doubt that, artificer is too awesome....... however if true, well, there's your raid complaint getting a slight resolve and frankly I've had a problem with a lack of clerics in raids too so I can totally understand that.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Have you considered that with the insanely high trap DCs on elite/repear, that half a rank of disable device is worse than useless? You will explode the panel on any difficulty over Casual, and you'd have to have taken ranks in Search.

Yes, I have realized that and I addressed that elsewhere in a reply on this very post, you do realize that things from D&D P&P need to be adapted to DDO, right? It would have to scale at least as well as knock and have different scaling mechanics than it does in P&P.... you know, like knock has different rules on DDO than in P&P? The range of knock is supposed to be much greater than it is in DDO, and from what I've seen it seems like it might be a little more reliable in P&P, also there's that function that it is supposed to do but doesn't in DDO where a loud audible knock sound is heard (Supposed to be a mechanic that has a risk of attracting nearby enemies). So yeah, DDO knock is indeed different than P&P knock, so I am not understanding here how you'd expect DDO's version of Understand Device to not also be unique to DDO in how it would need to be achieved. As for elaborating on how all it would have to differ, I'm not going to pretend to know how it would need to be made in order to achieve DDO's personal requirements in terms of balance.

[systemshaker1941]

Since you're keen on explanations, let's break it down:

you do realize that things from D&D P&P need to be adapted to DDO, right?

No. They don't. DDO is a separate game with a vastly different gameplay dynamic. Trying to adapt every single thing from PnP to it is both a waste of dev time and rife with abuse.

It would have to scale at least as well as knock and have different scaling mechanics than it does in P&P....

Oh, I see, you don't want it "adapted" at all; you want a brand new, broken, overpowered spell to cater to your niche playstyle. Thanks for clearing that up!"

you know, like knock has different rules on DDO than in P&P? The range of knock is supposed to be much greater than it is in DDO, and from what I've seen it seems like it might be a little more reliable in P&P,

There are some quests in DDO that cannot be completed without opening locked doors. So far as I know the same is not true for disarming traps - hence why more characters need access to unlocking ability and why bells of opening exist. Again, drastically different games with drastically different dymamics. "Because it exists in PnP" is not a justification.

also there's that function that it is supposed to do but doesn't in DDO where a loud audible knock sound is heard (Supposed to be a mechanic that has a risk of attracting nearby enemies).

The spell Knock indeed makes a very audible "knock" sound and will attract nearby enemies, but with stealth mechanics being what they are, you probably won't notice this in most instances. Especially when you're playing with a group that's already cleared the area of all enemies. Stealth is another very niche play-style thats popular in PnP but doesn't see much love in DDO. Could it use more support? Absolutely. Is that a question for this thread? No. (feel free to ask for further explanation on this "no").

so I am not understanding here how you'd expect DDO's version of Understand Device to not also be unique to DDO in how it would need to be achieved.

I'm not expecting it to exist at all; given how you already have to go whole-hog into trapping to do it, the spell would either have to be OP as all get out or only useful in extremely niche circumstances. Given the choice between "invalidating rogues" and "helping players on lower difficulty eek out a few extra XP" I'm guessing the devs will take the third option and ignore this request all together.

I'm not going to pretend to know

I'd go with that instinct.

[Domince]

A disagreement without an explanation is suspect for trolling, especially when said person's name is on my list of repeat offenders for toxic responses and hostility. Wasting your time to simply disagree without providing a reason seems innocent at first glance, but when you challenge someone to provide a reason and they can't and they instead lash out with complaints on the matter, that's quite revealing as it's far too often the case in that situation that the disagreement is neither sincere nor based on reason, but instead just a means of someone being spiteful that they feel will go unexposed. I've proven in an earlier rather hidden experiment that some people will indeed simply disagree with me to be spiteful and that post is both locked and still very much so available for viewing. In other words, I intend to filter out and expose toxic replies from people who refuse to avoid my threads and refuse to retain civility. Currently only Hobgoblin is on my ignore list, I prefer to keep it short but every time I give one of his comments the benefit of the doubt and look to see what he's saying on one of my posts, it's a total disappointment. He's prone to straw-man arguments , habitually assuming things then treating his assumptions as if fact at a cost to others, and being way too negative and uncivil. I don't know how many times I've reported him, but yeah I have my standards and they are reasonable, just abstain from exhibiting too many cluster B traits and you'll be fine. If someone truly wants value to be placed in their disagreement, they won't keep it super short short, however if they are just trolling, they won't elaborate either and frankly the elaboration on a disagreement is essential for effective discourse.

Why cant someone simply disagree with a spell that would give little benefeit in the game? It doesnt take a detailed explanation to show that the spell you want wouldnt be of any help in most content.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Why cant someone simply disagree with a spell that would give little benefeit in the game? It doesnt take a detailed explanation to show that the spell you want wouldnt be of any help in most content.

Actually I already explained quite the contrary, it has to do with a mixture of the multi-class tendencies people have and the reincarnation past life acquisition grind, also it is thematically appropriate for clerics as such would simply just give them another means to keep the health of their allies up via helping to prevent trap damage.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

No. They don't. DDO is a separate game with a vastly different gameplay dynamic. Trying to adapt every single thing from PnP to it is both a waste of dev time and rife with abuse.

Did you intentionally take that out of context to fake making a point or did you just not understand the context that was intended? Much of everything that has been taken from P&P and brought to DDO has had to have modifications done to it, and that is the context, therefore if you understood the context you'd have said something along the lines of "Yes they quite often do, but it's a waste of time for a dev to work on adding even more stuff that would require such adjustments" in which quite frankly is debatable with the developers themselves favoring new content that would in fact require more of such.

Oh, I see, you don't want it "adapted" at all; you want a brand new, broken, overpowered spell to cater to your niche playstyle. Thanks for clearing that up!"

I don't like overpowered, but it seems you want to place words into my mouth without even once asking a question regarding what all I am referring to, seems like another example of the ninth trait of NPD. Being able to handle traps in the absence of a rogue or an artificer or someone who has multiclassed in that direction is not overpowered, far from it especially when you consider what someone has to sacrifice just to get such DCs up high enough for such. Enough with the strawman attacks, it's not like I won't point them out when you make them.

There are some quests in DDO that cannot be completed without opening locked doors. So far as I know the same is not true for disarming traps - hence why more characters need access to unlocking ability and why bells of opening exist. Again, drastically different games with drastically different dymamics. "Because it exists in PnP" is not a justification.

Sure, but what makes something more powerful, having the power to complete a quest, or having the power to simply disarm traps? Frankly I don't see the logic in the point you are trying to make here as it certainly seems to be the other way around, especially when there are plenty of ways to simply avoid trap damage reliably, some coming from racial trees, others being evasion based or simply based on knowing the layout of a quest and where the traps are going to be.

The spell Knock indeed makes a very audible "knock" sound and will attract nearby enemies, but with stealth mechanics being what they are, you probably won't notice this in most instances. Especially when you're playing with a group that's already cleared the area of all enemies. Stealth is another very niche play-style thats popular in PnP but doesn't see much love in DDO. Could it use more support? Absolutely. Is that a question for this thread? No. (feel free to ask for further explanation on this "no").

The so called knock is pathetic, it's no where nearly as loud as it should be. I was running Temple Of Elemental Evil part 2 and used knock on the chest surrounded by those boxes that practically formed a cone (That if anything would have amplified the sound), they did not charge towards me like they should have, if the knock does attract enemies, it certainly does a crappy job at doing so but in reality, I've been loot focused and using knock without noticing any real effect, those gongs like in the Kobold's New Ringleader quest are as effective as I'd expect the knock spell to be at attracting enemies, but the knock spell isn't that effective at attracting enemies if at all. I'll ask for an explanation when it's your post and it interests me (In which frankly unlike some people, I won't attend a post unless it does interest me).

I'm not expecting it to exist at all; given how you already have to go whole-hog into trapping to do it, the spell would either have to be OP as all get out or only useful in extremely niche circumstances. Given the choice between "invalidating rogues" and "helping players on lower difficulty eek out a few extra XP" I'm guessing the devs will take the third option and ignore this request all together.

This whole "invalidating rogues" narrative is simply nonsense and does not stand up to scrutiny unless you also appose the multiclassing option in DDO, in other words........ unless someone is a class purist who avoids multi-classing, if they have an inner trapper/lock-picker......... they will find a way to feed that while working on any class based past life. Frankly, I'd say the only invalidating rogues I see going on is in regards to their stealth mechanics in which frankly I never enjoyed personally. Are you afraid someone is going to make a half orc cleric and build their character to be competent in lock picking and trap disabling? If that's the case, don't be........ half orcs are ugly and due to that, enough people have an aversion to playing as them (Same goes for warforged, half elves, and purple dragon knights) that they actually have psychological mechanisms in place compelling them to grind out those racial past lives quickly in which is why you see people on the forums going as far as to ask for racial cosmetics.

[Domince]

Actually I already explained quite the contrary, it has to do with a mixture of the multi-class tendencies people have and the reincarnation past life acquisition grind, also it is thematically appropriate for clerics as such would simply just give them another means to keep the health of their allies up via helping to prevent trap damage.

So a spell that is basically only of use for those that have a bunch of PLs and gear ready to go?

[TitusOvid]

Someone please close this thread.
TY.

[Hobgoblin]

A disagreement without an explanation is suspect for trolling, especially when said person's name is on my list of repeat offenders for toxic responses and hostility. Wasting your time to simply disagree without providing a reason seems innocent at first glance, but when you challenge someone to provide a reason and they can't and they instead lash out with complaints on the matter, that's quite revealing as it's far too often the case in that situation that the disagreement is neither sincere nor based on reason, but instead just a means of someone being spiteful that they feel will go unexposed. I've proven in an earlier rather hidden experiment that some people will indeed simply disagree with me to be spiteful and that post is both locked and still very much so available for viewing. In other words, I intend to filter out and expose toxic replies from people who refuse to avoid my threads and refuse to retain civility. Currently only Hobgoblin is on my ignore list, I prefer to keep it short but every time I give one of his comments the benefit of the doubt and look to see what he's saying on one of my posts, it's a total disappointment. He's prone to straw-man arguments , habitually assuming things then treating his assumptions as if fact at a cost to others, and being way too negative and uncivil. I don't know how many times I've reported him, but yeah I have my standards and they are reasonable, just abstain from exhibiting too many cluster B traits and you'll be fine. If someone truly wants value to be placed in their disagreement, they won't keep it super short short, however if they are just trolling, they won't elaborate either and frankly the elaboration on a disagreement is essential for effective discourse.

okay..... tries stepping away from keyboard then rolls a 1 on self restrait.


ok first off - u seem to have the behavior you speak of. only u can post these.

that being said i would direct your attention to this - and im not replying after this

https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-rules

in part:Be nice! A friendly and welcoming environment is very important, as it allows gamers from all walks of life and skill levels to participate.
Respect people. We ask that you respect others whether you agree with them or not. That means, in part:
Don't insult or harass others: Insulting or harassing people says more about you than it does the person you are insulting or harassing.
Don't troll: Trolling disrupts conversation and leads to long-term problems. Remember that you can strongly disagree with someone and not post about it, and can instead voice your own opinion without insulting others. This is also more productive and valuable to us. It's okay if someone is wrong on the Internet!
Don't accuse people of being trolls: Simply report their posts and move on. Calling someone a troll is a form of trolling.
Don't use loaded words to insult a group of players: The use of the words, "fanboy", "fanbois", "cheerleaders", "haters", or similar-meaning language, is insulting and not okay.

We do not permit "Naming and Shaming". Publicly accusing someone of misbehavior, whether true or not, is not allowed. We do not conduct trials in the court of public opinion, nor do we want to create a situation where players are forced to defend themselves publicly against untrue, misleading, or only partially accurate allegations.

Don't bring up old arguments in unrelated threads. You and someone else got into a 13-page dispute over whether shields should have handles, and will never agree on anything ever again because of it. You and the other person (or people) should stop responding to each other, at least for the time being. Regardless of how you choose to proceed, we don't want the topic brought up again and again in threads that have nothing to do with whether shields should have handles.

any of these seem familiar?

[bls904c2]

okay..... tries stepping away from keyboard then rolls a 1 on self restrait.


ok first off - u seem to have the behavior you speak of. only u can post these.

that being said i would direct your attention to this - and im not replying after this

https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-rules

in part:Be nice! A friendly and welcoming environment is very important, as it allows gamers from all walks of life and skill levels to participate.
Respect people. We ask that you respect others whether you agree with them or not. That means, in part:
Don't insult or harass others: Insulting or harassing people says more about you than it does the person you are insulting or harassing.
Don't troll: Trolling disrupts conversation and leads to long-term problems. Remember that you can strongly disagree with someone and not post about it, and can instead voice your own opinion without insulting others. This is also more productive and valuable to us. It's okay if someone is wrong on the Internet!
Don't accuse people of being trolls: Simply report their posts and move on. Calling someone a troll is a form of trolling.
Don't use loaded words to insult a group of players: The use of the words, "fanboy", "fanbois", "cheerleaders", "haters", or similar-meaning language, is insulting and not okay.

We do not permit "Naming and Shaming". Publicly accusing someone of misbehavior, whether true or not, is not allowed. We do not conduct trials in the court of public opinion, nor do we want to create a situation where players are forced to defend themselves publicly against untrue, misleading, or only partially accurate allegations.

Don't bring up old arguments in unrelated threads. You and someone else got into a 13-page dispute over whether shields should have handles, and will never agree on anything ever again because of it. You and the other person (or people) should stop responding to each other, at least for the time being. Regardless of how you choose to proceed, we don't want the topic brought up again and again in threads that have nothing to do with whether shields should have handles.

any of these seem familiar?

+1

i was about to write a wall of text. helped me to restrain myself

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

So a spell that is basically only of use for those that have a bunch of PLs and gear ready to go?

Yeah, apparently by some standards that constitutes as overpowered, personally I don't understand that and to me it sounds like someone just coming up with some nonsense to pretend to have reasoning to disagree with said suggestion in which believe me I am testing for that possibility. Meanwhile the beastkin poll experiment from earlier did prove that some people will simply disagree to disagree, and such constitutes an invalid opinion in the realm of debates, but I've come to expect that from people on these forums and they really don't like measures I take to weed those types out, but then again said measure serve other purposes as well.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

+1

i was about to write a wall of text. helped me to restrain myself

So that's what he said, I couldn't see it because he's on my ignore list........

Firstly saying someone's conduct is suspect for trolling isn't calling them a troll but rather saying by their actions they are suspected to be a troll and thus by being notified that such is suspected they are given a chance to clear any misunderstandings that is making them out to be a troll.

Also, contextually speaking it can very much so be argued that I didn't break any of these rules especially considering the language employed and the flow of the conversations here.