U41.4 Preview 1: Inquisitive Universal Enhancement Tree

[SerPounce]

You aren't going to be able to create a wide variety of builds with this design, and it would be better to abandon the enhancement tree system entirely if you want only a single hyper-controlled and balanced build to be created. Just have someone pick a major and two minor ability sets.

What you are doing with this hyper-control and balance over enhancement trees is leaving heroics as a poorer leveling experience where you get nothing for 11 levels, then generally get nothing again if you multi-classed.

That's pretty hyperbolic. This tree is arguably backloaded, but it's not true of all the recent trees. Falconry doesn't necessitate going all in. In fact this will be the first of the universal trees were most builds that use it will go all the way to t5 and core5/6. Also as a universal tree you have literally all of your class levels up for grabs which opens up a lot of build diversity even if everyone is putting their AP in roughly the same places in the tree.

[Tilomere]

This tree is arguably backloaded, but it's not true of all the recent trees.

Other than some trees allowing replacement stats to hit and damage or minor defenses to survive a bit longer, neither of which is a build, build enhancement trees in DDO generally look like this:



There are some variety, in that sometimes a single useful ability is core 3 or core 4 instead of tier 4, or sometimes elsewhere, but really all the power of the build trees are maybe 1 ability before 12, 4-5 abilities you obtain at level 12, 1 ability at 18, and 1 ability at 20. They do this to prevent broken multiclass combos. The problem is that this leaves a poor leveling experience in that you generally only get 1 or 0 fun and useful abilities before level 12, and nothing after if you multiclass, and really nothing to use significantly in heroics after even if pure due to capping at 18.

Basically, they chose to balance the game by removing the ability to pick multiple powerful abilities from multiple trees. If you are going to remove choice, then do it in a way that makes the game more fun. For example, lets say we force a monk to pick a major and two minor focus, and they pick shintao as their major focus. We can take these 8 powerful shintao abilities, and spread them out from X-20, so they feel and play as a shintao starting at level X. Right now, for balance purposes, you play as basically a nothing for 11 levels under many trees.

The purpose of enhancement trees is to allow choices and customization for a player to make decisions and come up with their own powerful combinations. If you aren't going to allow players to do that, don't use this busted version of enhancement trees that limit fun and flavor. Just give a set of abilities that are fun to play with in a continual progression like all other games.

The other problem with this type of design is that it gives only a single unique replay. Since this type of build tree design is incompatible due to lockouts and AP with any other build tree in heroic leveling, there are no synergy builds, and as such the tree is a standalone singular experience. This will initially attract explorers to try it out and enjoy it, but not stick around to enjoy various permutations because there are none. For example, if I wanted to combo the high attack speed of inquisitor with EK imbues, it won't effectively work in heroics because half of the EK imbue power is tied up in the capstone, because EK is designed just like Shintao and Inquisitor.

[FuryFlash]

For example, if I wanted to combo the high attack speed of inquisitor with EK imbues, it won't effectively work in heroics because half of the EK imbue power is tied up in the capstone, because EK is designed just like Shintao and Inquisitor.

I get where you're coming from in this post, and I do wish they would support multi-classing a bit more by making the lower-tier stuff in most trees more interesting, but what you're saying is just too exaggerated. You could combo the high attack speed of inquisitor with EK imbues, and have a powerful build for most of heroics, because the main power of EK starts at level 3 and builds up from there.

Just because you can't get all the power from multiple trees at once doesn't mean a build won't work; multi-classing is built around having trade-offs.

[Tilomere]

Just because you can't get all the power from multiple trees at once doesn't mean a build won't work; multi-classing is built around having trade-offs.

I'm not talking about multi-classing. I'm saying these aren't enhancement trees. These are lists of abilities hard limited due to balance and enhancement tree design to level 12, 18, and 20. Either embrace the enhancement trees as enhancement trees, or dump them and go to lists. Either solution will be better than what we have now.

[Blase]

Tilomere, I don't get why you'd go after the EK capstone, the vast majority of the tree is melee centric. Personally, I'm going to go 18 wiz/ 2 rog. I'll put 6 points into EK which nets me 6d6 damage from spellsword, 11 harper for int to hit / damage / know the angles, 11 AM illusionist for the free invis/blur/displament SLA's, 11PM because being a zombie hurts your attack speed, and finally 41 inquis for ... well everything. It'll be a great CC/utility caster that's extremely self sufficient, with very respectable dps.

Snag EK first and just greataxe through the first couple levels, maybe a couple into harper for int to hit, then am, then pm. Come level 11, it all starts going into inquisitor, and life starts getting really good. True seeing, auto trap search (i love that so much) and of course the dps.

Or maybe I'm an idiot, and the 7d12 vs 6d6 is worth giving up 7d6 law damage, endless fullisade and 30% xbow alacrity. I don't see it though. In reality, I'm grabbing a lot of low hanging fruit from the other trees.

[SerPounce]

Other than some trees allowing replacement stats to hit and damage or minor defenses to survive a bit longer, neither of which is a build, build enhancement trees in DDO generally look like this:


There are some variety, in that sometimes a single useful ability is core 3 or core 4 instead of tier 4, or sometimes elsewhere, but really all the power of the build trees are maybe 1 ability before 12, 4-5 abilities you obtain at level 12, 1 ability at 18, and 1 ability at 20. They do this to prevent broken multiclass combos. The problem is that this leaves a poor leveling experience in that you generally only get 1 or 0 fun and useful abilities before level 12, and nothing after if you multiclass, and really nothing to use significantly in heroics after even if pure due to capping at 18.

Basically, they chose to balance the game by removing the ability to pick multiple powerful abilities from multiple trees. If you are going to remove choice, then do it in a way that makes the game more fun. For example, lets say we force a monk to pick a major and two minor focus, and they pick shintao as their major focus. We can take these 8 powerful shintao abilities, and spread them out from X-20, so they feel and play as a shintao starting at level X. Right now, for balance purposes, you play as basically a nothing for 11 levels under many trees.

The purpose of enhancement trees is to allow choices and customization for a player to make decisions and come up with their own powerful combinations. If you aren't going to allow players to do that, don't use this busted version of enhancement trees that limit fun and flavor. Just give a set of abilities that are fun to play with in a continual progression like all other games.

The other problem with this type of design is that it gives only a single unique replay. Since this type of build tree design is incompatible due to lockouts and AP with any other build tree in heroic leveling, there are no synergy builds, and as such the tree is a standalone singular experience. This will initially attract explorers to try it out and enjoy it, but not stick around to enjoy various permutations because there are none. For example, if I wanted to combo the high attack speed of inquisitor with EK imbues, it won't effectively work in heroics because half of the EK imbue power is tied up in the capstone, because EK is designed just like Shintao and Inquisitor.

You appear to be mistaking a basic aspect of the enhancement tree design with some kind of insight. From day one this system has had a hard lock out that only allowed getting t5 in one tree. So, yes, t5 abilities (and cores 5-6; and to a lesser extent core4) work on a completely different power scale to t1-4 abilities (and lower cores) and can really only be compared to other t5 abilities because that's the intended opportunity cost. That's not some piercing insight into trends in enhancement tree design, that's how the system was intended to work from day one. There was never any chance you were going to be able to take t5 in multiple trees.

Regarding levels 1-11, that's more of a matter of opinion where t5 should kick in, but IMO the devs have generally done a good job keeping foundational abilities out of t5 (like stat to hit-dmg). Not many builds feel brokenly incomplete without their 5t. In most cases t5 provides a bunch of raw power that isn't appropriate to low level quests. Do you really melee power and crit increases in 3bc?

[Splunge]

"Dual xbows are fun, but have the devs even wondered how the xbows are reloading with one stuck in each hand? Fun, but physically impossible" Smug Arti quote

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html

[archerforever]

I love the idea of dual crossbows, A LOT !
But actually some things are not good enough.

1- The shoot animation is not good. Shooting with both crossbows at the same time is ridiculous, it should be better to have a left then a right hand and so on for theses animations.
2- Sounds of dual crossbows when shooting is just like nothing and not something expected for a play style like this one.
3- Even if that enhancements tree looks good, there are NO Named light and heavy crossbows in the game that worth it, you should do something like that --> "ANY crossbow you equip (even repeating heavy, repeating light and great crossbows) are considered a simple light or heavy crossbow (choose between 2 toggles)
4- give the POSSIBILITY to equip 2 different crossbows in each hand if you want to OR have a copy of your primary crossbow on your offhand (2 different toggle)

I think theses changes are needed to make that crazy and lovely new tree better.

[DrawingGuy]

I love the idea of dual crossbows, A LOT !
But actually some things are not good enough.

1- The shoot animation is not good. Shooting with both crossbows at the same time is ridiculous, it should be better to have a left then a right hand and so on for theses animations.
2- Sounds of dual crossbows when shooting is just like nothing and not something expected for a play style like this one.
3- Even if that enhancements tree looks good, there are NO Named light and heavy crossbows in the game that worth it, you should do something like that --> "ANY crossbow you equip (even repeating heavy, repeating light and great crossbows) are considered a simple light or heavy crossbow (choose between 2 toggles)
4- give the POSSIBILITY to equip 2 different crossbows in each hand if you want to OR have a copy of your primary crossbow on your offhand (2 different toggle)

I think theses changes are needed to make that crazy and lovely new tree better.

1 - While I too would prefer an alternating shot, that's more of a subjective opinion. The much more important thing is for them to fix the animation delays across classes and races.
2 - Sound is something they've already mentioned is on their plate, though I know most of us don't miss it. Hoping they go for a new softer and more tame "thwip" sound to both represent the smaller size of the x-bows and to be less annoyiing....
3 - NO. The point is to bring into relevance the unused weapons, not just bring a new tree to already popular weapons. They are fully aware of the lack of light and heavy crossbows. Expect multiple new ones in the expansion as well as in packs throughout the year, and soon that won't be an issue. Though there is an amazing low level Light x-bow with Ratcatcher, and Epic Storm is not a bad heavy x-bow for 20. They also added the new light x-bow in the anniversary to easily gives you something to sentient come the release of the tree.
4 - That is extremely different levels of tech and balance. They already have the advantage over handwraps (another weapon with a duplicated weapon mechanic) as you can still use Rune Arms. That is a bridge they will not cross, nor do I think they should bother with the effort. In regards to Rune Arms, they likely should either disable their firing while in dual x-bow mode (you'll still get the benefits and imbues making them worth it) so as to prevent all the animation issues, or prevent the use of Rune Arms entirely to follow the logic of both hands full. Though that latter one I see as something begging to glitch and delete/prevent rune arms in all cases.

[Tilomere]

Regarding levels 1-11, that's more of a matter of opinion where t5 should kick in, but IMO the devs have generally done a good job keeping foundational abilities out of t5 (like stat to hit-dmg). Not many builds feel brokenly incomplete without their 5t

For the first 11 levels, unless you have an artificer EF build, it is better to use a heavy repeater and fire 3 shots/volley than to dual wield crossbows and fire 2. If you do have an artificer EF build, it is still better to use a heavy repeater for the first 6 levels until you get to EF.

[bls904c2]

For the first 11 levels, unless you have an artificer EF build, it is better to use a heavy repeater and fire 3 shots/volley than to dual wield crossbows and fire 2. If you do have an artificer EF build, it is still better to use a heavy repeater for the first 6 levels until you get to EF.

unless im mistaken repeating crossbows require a feat to use unless your an arti. most classes that i have played with exception of fighter i am feat starved so 2 non repeating crossbows is better than 1 non repeating or even a repeating crossbow that does not repeat.

i also dont use fred to change out feats so the feats i take are for the build not short term till i get to x level

[Ausdoerrt]

So there's Divine Inquisition, Arcane, even Dashing... but no Spanish? Can we get some love here?

[Tilomere]

nvm, doesn't matter its done