Knights Training V 2.0 (defensive posture)

[Captain_Wizbang]

My suggestion is to make 2 forms of Knights Training

The current form is weapons (offence)

A second form would be defense. I have my opinions on what it should encompass, but that's not the purpose of my thread. It's getting the player base to voice support for the concept.

[Saekee]

sounds like it could be interesting

[Enoach]

My suggestion is to make 2 forms of Knights Training

The current form is weapons (offence)

A second form would be defense. I have my opinions on what it should encompass, but that's not the purpose of my thread. It's getting the player base to voice support for the concept.

It is hard to voice support for a vague concept. I would say I have a mild interest in hearing out the concept as a long time Tank player.

I say this because...
1. While AC has value, there are places it lags behind - Will the idea be to shore this up?
2. What type of Defense are we discussing; AC (Armor), AC (Shield), PRR, MRR, Saves, DR and/or Miss Chances like Dodge and Shield Deflection?
3. Are we discussing a static value or a value that scales based on BaB, n Levels of a list of classes or character levels?

[Captain_Wizbang]

It is hard to voice support for a vague concept. I would say I have a mild interest in hearing out the concept as a long time Tank player.

I say this because...
1. While AC has value, there are places it lags behind - Will the idea be to shore this up?
2. What type of Defense are we discussing; AC (Armor), AC (Shield), PRR, MRR, Saves, DR and/or Miss Chances like Dodge and Shield Deflection?
3. Are we discussing a static value or a value that scales based on BaB, n Levels of a list of classes or character levels?

I purposely left it open-ended to have as many people's ideas and suggestions fill in the blanks.

We have some keen players on the forums, my goal was to get ideas flowing, and start discussion for the devs to consider and add to the conversation.

I think the idea is a good one, Im hoping everyone has input

[psykopeta]

My suggestion is to make 2 forms of Knights Training

The current form is weapons (offence)

A second form would be defense. I have my opinions on what it should encompass, but that's not the purpose of my thread. It's getting the player base to voice support for the concept.

my suggestion is release another feat other than knight training, so players don't get offensive + defensive at same time with 1 feat, which is what crushed the game (how many 13 ap on fighter/pally build were out there?)

once we have 2 feats, and stances exclusives... we could talk about percentile increases so the more u invest, the better the feat becomes

[Captain_Wizbang]

my suggestion is release another feat other than knight training, so players don't get offensive + defensive at same time with 1 feat,

I had thought of that.
I disagree, 2 separate feats. One main heading.

And if we take it one step farther, make them require a T4/5 core ability, and say 24 to 30 points spent in a tree

[Memnir]

getting the player base to voice support for the concept.

[Captain_Wizbang]

[Captain_Wizbang]

Surprised this thread hasn't had more responses

[Saekee]

I purposely left it open-ended to have as many people's ideas and suggestions fill in the blanks.

We have some keen players on the forums, my goal was to get ideas flowing, and start discussion for the devs to consider and add to the conversation.

I think the idea is a good one, Im hoping everyone has input

I think people here generally lack imagination & hence approach the game purely numerically so you need to give some specific suggestions. Then aforementioned limitations mean a yes or no, or some numerical modification...

[Xgya]

Unsure about this.
There's already a lot to do defensively, the new feat wasn't added because players didn't get enough offense - it was added because a few weapon types were so obviously subpar that they had to improve them. The feat turns those weapons into exotic weapons (more powerful weapons that take a feat slot)

Unlike offense, defense isn't an all-or-nothing scheme. Multiple layers of defense add up to a legitimate defensive array. If you're missing a layer, you're losing out.

Some layers get increasingly better the more you head to the top
- Dodge: every point of Dodge you earn decreases the damage more than the previous. 1% dodge: 99% damage taken. +1%. Decrease damage by 1/99, not 1%.

Some layers get diminishing returns
- PRR: Every point of PRR earned increases your virtual HP less. 1 PRR: 101% HP. +1: +1/101.

All layers are good to increase overall.

[kamimitsu]

As some have posted, it's tough to get behind a concept with no specifics.

The purpose of Knight's Training seems to be to level the effectiveness of various weapons. With that in mind, why not do something similar for the defensive version.

Knights Training, Defensive
Your armor has the base PRR/Armor bonus of one weight class higher (cloth-> light, light -> medium, medium-> heavy) and the max dex/armor check/skill penalty of one class lower (heavy -> medium, medium-> light, or light -> cloth). Your armor will satisfy feat or class requirements based on its true weight or modified weight, as necessary (i.e. barbs could wear heavy armor without penalty, monks could wear light without penalty)

Armors in the middle get benefits from both ends, but cloth and heavy only get the one benefit (being at the end of the spectrum already).


Might be too much, but something along those lines, perhaps?

[Enoach]

Surprised this thread hasn't had more responses

I think people here generally lack imagination & hence approach the game purely numerically so you need to give some specific suggestions. Then aforementioned limitations mean a yes or no, or some numerical modification...

I actually disagree that it is because people "lack imagination". It is that if you want a conversation to start about something it works much better to actually start it than to say "Hey Bob, want to talk about the weather?" and not expect Bob to just say "Yes" or "No". However, if you say "Hey Bob, Wow the weather has been crazy. I've been wearing a jacket in the morning and shorts at night." With that Bob has a place to come in with Bob's take on the weather.

As some have posted, it's tough to get behind a concept with no specifics.

The purpose of Knight's Training seems to be to level the effectiveness of various weapons. With that in mind, why not do something similar for the defensive version.

Knights Training, Defensive
Your armor has the base PRR/Armor bonus of one weight class higher (cloth-> light, light -> medium, medium-> heavy) and the max dex/armor check/skill penalty of one class lower (heavy -> medium, medium-> light, or light -> cloth). Your armor will satisfy feat or class requirements based on its true weight or modified weight, as necessary (i.e. barbs could wear heavy armor without penalty, monks could wear light without penalty)

Armors in the middle get benefits from both ends, but cloth and heavy only get the one benefit (being at the end of the spectrum already).


Might be too much, but something along those lines, perhaps?

There are a lot of different ways to approach the defensive side of a Knight's Training. But what has to be determined to prevent "going to far" is the limits

Are we talking about allowing Tank types to get closer to "Un-hitable"?
This was actually one of the reasons they did the Armor Up pass, because people could reach an AC that could only be hit on a 20, then were able to add Concealment and reduce the number of times even a 20 hit.

Are we talking about allowing Tank type to get to a point that makes them harder to damage? Physical (Range/Melee), Magical, Elemental?

Are we talking about utility in defense?
More options with a Shield
- Enhanced Blocking such as being able to block attacks on other party members if they are right next to you.
- Enhance further the ability to use a shield as an offensive weapon without sacrificing the defense
- Bonus to Trip
- Adding in a "Shove" attack that acts like Trip but pushes target back 5 feet - two saves Counter Strength Check for push back on failed Save another save for Trip separate cooldown then trip

Removal or reduction of penalties while defensive fighting or utilizing combat expertise
- Reduced penalties to skills
- Increase Max Dexterity Bonus
- Removal or Reduction of penalties that increase Spell Casting Cooldown or dropping stances when a spell is cast (Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise)