Why the TR cache disappears? PETITION to hire an engine programmer.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Someone wrote a std::swap function like garbage? (If our engine is written in C++.) Is the cache written in no-SQL and that method is now out of style? I don't get it, but we need a code monkey to fix this.

<Tinfoil hat on> Your current developers are all working within higher level simplifications of the engine. You, and I mean SSG, do not employ anyone who understands the TR cache. The DEEP engine code is now a mystery to this company and you are (apparently) unwilling to hire anyone to figure it out. That's why the TR cache disappears. <Tinfoil hat off>

We're screwed on this one guys. This has been a problem for years---but this company isn't willing to employ someone to figure this out and fix it. We're talking about a core feature of the game. We're talking about how they sell boxes, xp pots, and VIP. The TR cache is broken because our management has been unwilling to fix it. After the TR cache disappears for people we should see an engineer comment on the problem. It's the engine programmers duty to deal with this kind of thing.

This is a petition to this company to hire an engine programmer competent enough to stop the TR crapche from causing people to leave and others to question the game's age. I love this game a lot and in order for to keep existing, this needs to happen.

Cheers and Love,

[Inanout]

Yes please

[Renvar]

As I posted in the other thread (about Sharn vs. TR Fix), I disagree that any time should be spent fixing the TR cache or hiring resources to fix the TR cache.

I think resources should be spent making a cosmetic wardrobe, Potions Case, Scroll Case, and Spell Components Pouch and to turn the Personal Bank UI into the same UI as shared bank (Sure I'd like upgrades to the shared bank UI like sorting by ML or item type, etc, but to get it done, let's just duplicate what exists) and add 200-300 more personal bank spaces sold in 20 space increments. Also, code all non-raid loot and non-raid crafted loot to BtA. To allow for more use of the shared bank and mules for storing gear from previous lives or for future lives.

Then just remove the TR cache from the game. Anyone who has it now is unaffected, but the next time you TR, you have to clear it and it does not come back. If you need more space, then purchase it using the new QoL storage options above.

The TR cache is a flawed implementation. I see no reason to invest a lot of money or development into it. Invest that effort into things that generate revenue, make the game better all around during daily game play and solve the problem by eliminating the need for the TR cache in the first place. Think how much faster TRing would be if you didn't have to play inventory tetris for 15-30 minutes every time you TR'd.

Fixing the TR cache is just perpetuating an old broken system. It's inside the box thinking. Let's step outside the box and envision a world free of the TR Cache.

[kelavas]

As I posted in the other thread (about Sharn vs. TR Fix), I disagree that any time should be spent fixing the TR cache or hiring resources to fix the TR cache.

I think resources should be spent making a cosmetic wardrobe, Potions Case, Scroll Case, and Spell Components Pouch and to turn the Personal Bank UI into the same UI as shared bank (Sure I'd like upgrades to the shared bank UI like sorting by ML or item type, etc, but to get it done, let's just duplicate what exists) and add 200-300 more personal bank spaces sold in 20 space increments. Also, code all non-raid loot and non-raid crafted loot to BtA. To allow for more use of the shared bank and mules for storing gear from previous lives or for future lives.

Then just remove the TR cache from the game. Anyone who has it now is unaffected, but the next time you TR, you have to clear it and it does not come back. If you need more space, then purchase it using the new QoL storage options above.

The TR cache is a flawed implementation. I see no reason to invest a lot of money or development into it. Invest that effort into things that generate revenue, make the game better all around during daily game play and solve the problem by eliminating the need for the TR cache in the first place. Think how much faster TRing would be if you didn't have to play inventory tetris for 15-30 minutes every time you TR'd.

Fixing the TR cache is just perpetuating an old broken system. It's inside the box thinking. Let's step outside the box and envision a world free of the TR Cache.

As much I would love to have scroll cases and potion cases. None of those make sense first of all. Second, you are seeing posts about people losing stuff that should've been placed in the TR cache. It shouldn't have much time spent on it but at least some to fix these errors from recurring. Not to mention I have lost multiple items in these cases and they were recovered. They weren't misplaced on a different character or left somewhere or accidently deleted. These were low level old crafting shards like 10% melee alacrity at minimum level 1. I have lost those shards however because I transferred servers without giving a chance to recover the item. This is by mistake but most of the items I have lost were rare - Quiver of Alacrity. That was lost but recovered in a matter of hours thanks to the game moderators.

This is the game fault - not our fault.

Think twice before posting, please.

[Fedora1]

Then just remove the TR cache from the game. Anyone who has it now is unaffected, but the next time you TR, you have to clear it and it does not come back.

So what happens to stuff you have equipped or in your backpack when you TR? Gone? You will need to program in a way to handle that. I guarantee a "warning" that you must be nekkid when TR'ing is not going to be enough.

I do agree, however, that something other than the TR cache needs to be implemented. Extra inventory has been just about the number 1 request over the years, as well as a better way to search it. All we have gotten so far is more shared bank space (which is ok) but it's expensive, too little, and too clunky of an interface. It needs a huge overhaul.

[Tilomere]

Code everything BTA, double the size or shared bank base and upgrades, get rid of TR cache entirely.

[Renvar]

So what happens to stuff you have equipped or in your backpack when you TR? Gone? You will need to program in a way to handle that. I guarantee a "warning" that you must be nekkid when TR'ing is not going to be enough.

This all works well enough on Epic Reincarnation. How many problems do you hear of people losing gear during an ER? Most have ML 30 stuff equipped when ERing. No need to be "nekkid".

The problems exist entirely in the transfer of all your inventory, worn items, and personal bank into the TR cache. If the game is not doing that, then the problem goes away.

[Renvar]

This is the game fault - not our fault.

Think twice before posting, please.

Show me where i said this was our fault? Maybe you need to read twice before posting, please.

I was entirely stating that THE GAME's TR cache is flawed. THE GAME. (to be clear). Not us. (to be clearer).

Since THE GAME is losing stuff when THE GAME transfers the items from inventory and personal bank to the TR Cache, why not solve the problem by having THE GAME not do that anymore? THE GAME could have more personal bank storage and THE GAME could have more ways to store items in inventory and THE GAME could make more items BTA so that THE GAME does not need to transfer anything to a TR Cache. This will be better for us, the players. Because we will get to use these new features of THE GAME and we will not have to spend a lot of time emptying the cache every time we want to TR and we will not have to worry when we TR that THE GAME will lose our stuff.

[nokowi]

This all works well enough on Epic Reincarnation. How many problems do you hear of people losing gear during an ER? Most have ML 30 stuff equipped when ERing. No need to be "nekkid".

The problems exist entirely in the transfer of all your inventory, worn items, and personal bank into the TR cache. If the game is not doing that, then the problem goes away.

I don't think everyone wants to resolve grouping issues by getting rid of grouping. Your preference to drop the TR bank is your preference, however the logic behind it is flawed.


There are a host of options to make the experience better.

The obvious ones are
1. player guaranteed to know the state of their character
2. actual customer support when you have a major issue


There is no magic wand where the TR cache disappears without a host of new issues. We are not in a position to know what the optimal solution is. I would guess the TR process has a bunch of necessary code that is not used in the ER process, and that it is non trivial to convert all TR's into the ER process. I would guess there are legal issues to removing TR cache's with inventory in them.

All we can do is make recommendations, but it helps to recognize our limited understanding on the technical side.

[btolson]

This all works well enough on Epic Reincarnation. How many problems do you hear of people losing gear during an ER? Most have ML 30 stuff equipped when ERing. No need to be "nekkid".

The problems exist entirely in the transfer of all your inventory, worn items, and personal bank into the TR cache. If the game is not doing that, then the problem goes away.

I believe a dev has stated in the past that unlike an ER, during a TR your character is deleted and recreated from scratch, with PL feats/tomes applied and cache created. That's why everything gets 0'd out (favor, flagging, etc, and why consumed tomes used to be lost as well).

That said, deleting a character from the database to TR it is a pretty drastic implementation. And I do wish they'd come up with something else.

[Scrapco]

It's code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read!
and

"Everyone knows that debugging is twice as hard as writing a program in the first place. So if you're as clever as you can be when you write it, how will you ever debug it?"

--Brian Kernighan

[Renvar]

I would guess there are legal issues to removing TR cache's with inventory in them.

I wasn't suggesting this at all. The TR cache can stay on any character that has inventory in it. For years and years, if they never want to TR again. But when that character TR's you are required to manually empty it prior to the TR. And it won't be created after the TR, like it used to. No need to wipe out the TR cache that currently exists on any character that isn't about to TR. Thus, no legal issues.

[nokowi]

I wasn't suggesting this at all. The TR cache can stay on any character that has inventory in it. For years and years, if they never want to TR again. But when that character TR's you are required to manually empty it prior to the TR. And it won't be created after the TR, like it used to. No need to wipe out the TR cache that currently exists on any character that isn't about to TR. Thus, no legal issues.

And all the other technical issues that were mentioned?

[Renvar]

I believe a dev has stated in the past that unlike an ER, during a TR your character is deleted and recreated from scratch, with PL feats/tomes applied and cache created. That's why everything gets 0'd out (favor, flagging, etc, and why consumed tomes used to be lost as well).

That said, deleting a character from the database to TR it is a pretty drastic implementation. And I do wish they'd come up with something else.

I don't know the technical differences between the two. I do know that the inventory move to the TR cache happens on the beach. During periods of high lag, you can see your inventory still full when you first arrive. And watch it slowly get deleted. Which means that the TR cache transfer process happens AFTER the character is deleted and recreated on the character creation screen (prior to arriving on the beach). But, sure, we don't know all the technical aspects to that process. It may or may not be easy to remove that step and just leave everything in inventory. It may very well be that fixing the TR cache is easier. I just know that:

1) They have not been able to make the TR cache process safe permanently
2) They seem to have limited ability to fix problems.
3) It takes a long time to transfer all that stuff out every time you TR and it is not fun. I'd much rather be doing other things in game.
4) The cache is not searchable or sortable or organizable in any way. It is difficult to work with.

All of these suggest to me that enhancing the other inventory management options (BTA loot, storage containers, more bank and inventory slots) and removing it is the better way to go. I for one would TR more often if I didn't have to empty that cache. And I would buy the other inventory management options. And have less stress every time I TR. All of which would be positives to me. YMMV.

And all the other technical issues that were mentioned?

See Above. I acknowledge that my suggestion is not based on detailed technical understanding of the code or the process. And that it is biased by my personal game experiences and desires to not have to use the TR cache anymore. I have always found it clumsy and annoying and a poorly conceived work around for inventory management that puts most of the burden on the player. Given that it seems to be continuously unstable, I favor looking at the effort to find an alternative solution than to keep putting more band aids and duct tape and bubble gum on top of the old ones.

[psykopeta]

I believe a dev has stated in the past that unlike an ER, during a TR your character is deleted and recreated from scratch, with PL feats/tomes applied and cache created. That's why everything gets 0'd out (favor, flagging, etc, and why consumed tomes used to be lost as well).

That said, deleting a character from the database to TR it is a pretty drastic implementation. And I do wish they'd come up with something else.

same way we have outdated gear coexisting with new gear (rng one, i mean, like the 3-4 different types of sources for... let's say deception, as an example) we could just get rid of current tr method

it's supposed ot be fixed, they said (and you see it every time you tr) that a log is created when you tr your toon now, due to so many players losing stuff, i mean this person who lost recently isn't the 1st one, nor 100th i would say

since that method (deleting, reapplying tomes, creating log, etc) isn't working, because at this point we should know it's not working

WHY ARE PLAYERS AGAINST GETTING RID OF THAT METHOD?

is something i don't understand, i mean, create a new tr method, a new recipe for tokens of the twelve that creates the heart for that new tr method (once we're at it, let's give racial + class pl) and just let's say hello to a new way to play ddo:
- no more house K and coinlords favor to get more storage room. every. time. you. tr
- since we're on it, let's multiply the storage, by 2 at least, everything bta! or just get rid of it lol
- the most important thing: being able to see all the storage and gear from my mules without needing 35 relogs (the game is crappy enough and awfully coded so my 16 gb ram laptop with 4gb gfx even crashes after... 40 relogs and 2 yester hill quests dropping to 4 fps) that thing i'm asking for is used in wow since years ago... as an addon, if a player can make it pretty sure a professional team can too

[Sam-u-r-eye]

--Brian Kernighan

^^

goto goto goto goto goto goto

[nokowi]

same way we have outdated gear coexisting with new gear (rng one, i mean, like the 3-4 different types of sources for... let's say deception, as an example) we could just get rid of current tr method

it's supposed ot be fixed, they said (and you see it every time you tr) that a log is created when you tr your toon now, due to so many players losing stuff, i mean this person who lost recently isn't the 1st one, nor 100th i would say

since that method (deleting, reapplying tomes, creating log, etc) isn't working, because at this point we should know it's not working

WHY ARE PLAYERS AGAINST GETTING RID OF THAT METHOD?

is something i don't understand, i mean, create a new tr method, a new recipe for tokens of the twelve that creates the heart for that new tr method (once we're at it, let's give racial + class pl) and just let's say hello to a new way to play ddo:
- no more house K and coinlords favor to get more storage room. every. time. you. tr
- since we're on it, let's multiply the storage, by 2 at least, everything bta! or just get rid of it lol
- the most important thing: being able to see all the storage and gear from my mules without needing 35 relogs (the game is crappy enough and awfully coded so my 16 gb ram laptop with 4gb gfx even crashes after... 40 relogs and 2 yester hill quests dropping to 4 fps) that thing i'm asking for is used in wow since years ago... as an addon, if a player can make it pretty sure a professional team can too

Nobody is against extra (equivalent or better) storage method and TR bank removal.

Have you considered why devs did not take this option last time around?

It tells me something - the solutions are non-trivial.

It's enough to state a preference without pretending you are in the know that that preference is the best implementation. Only SSG has the information to determine the best path forward.

Some of us find value in listing all potential solutions, and hoping SSG will find some value in our opinions when they choose what works for them.

[Chai]

As I posted in the other thread (about Sharn vs. TR Fix), I disagree that any time should be spent fixing the TR cache or hiring resources to fix the TR cache.

I think resources should be spent making a cosmetic wardrobe, Potions Case, Scroll Case, and Spell Components Pouch and to turn the Personal Bank UI into the same UI as shared bank (Sure I'd like upgrades to the shared bank UI like sorting by ML or item type, etc, but to get it done, let's just duplicate what exists) and add 200-300 more personal bank spaces sold in 20 space increments. Also, code all non-raid loot and non-raid crafted loot to BtA. To allow for more use of the shared bank and mules for storing gear from previous lives or for future lives.

Then just remove the TR cache from the game. Anyone who has it now is unaffected, but the next time you TR, you have to clear it and it does not come back. If you need more space, then purchase it using the new QoL storage options above.

The TR cache is a flawed implementation. I see no reason to invest a lot of money or development into it. Invest that effort into things that generate revenue, make the game better all around during daily game play and solve the problem by eliminating the need for the TR cache in the first place. Think how much faster TRing would be if you didn't have to play inventory tetris for 15-30 minutes every time you TR'd.

Fixing the TR cache is just perpetuating an old broken system. It's inside the box thinking. Let's step outside the box and envision a world free of the TR Cache.

Myself and some associates suggested this once, and hilarity ensued. Some players even demanded enough FREE storage to have 1 of every named item in the game in any single characters inventory.

Otherwise they want to keep their TR cache as free storage.

I'm all for moving away from it and simply having bank space for X# of spaces. No need to reinvent the wheel. While this may mean earning less on purchased bank space its better than people not TRing due to fear of losing everything.

Part of this issue however, also includes losing tomes and stuff which mods the character without being in a gear slot.

[HuneyMunster]

As I posted in the other thread (about Sharn vs. TR Fix), I disagree that any time should be spent fixing the TR cache or hiring resources to fix the TR cache.

I think resources should be spent making a cosmetic wardrobe, Potions Case, Scroll Case, and Spell Components Pouch and to turn the Personal Bank UI into the same UI as shared bank (Sure I'd like upgrades to the shared bank UI like sorting by ML or item type, etc, but to get it done, let's just duplicate what exists) and add 200-300 more personal bank spaces sold in 20 space increments. Also, code all non-raid loot and non-raid crafted loot to BtA. To allow for more use of the shared bank and mules for storing gear from previous lives or for future lives.

Then just remove the TR cache from the game. Anyone who has it now is unaffected, but the next time you TR, you have to clear it and it does not come back. If you need more space, then purchase it using the new QoL storage options above.

The TR cache is a flawed implementation. I see no reason to invest a lot of money or development into it. Invest that effort into things that generate revenue, make the game better all around during daily game play and solve the problem by eliminating the need for the TR cache in the first place. Think how much faster TRing would be if you didn't have to play inventory tetris for 15-30 minutes every time you TR'd.

Fixing the TR cache is just perpetuating an old broken system. It's inside the box thinking. Let's step outside the box and envision a world free of the TR Cache.

I agree that TR cache is something that could be removed entirely. Most of us have just about enough room to remove all item from the cache once destroyed potions and scrolls etc, moved items to Shard Bank or Alts. The problem is the amount of space needed would be costly for people to purchase new inventory and/or shared bank space to hold all the extra items they will have on them.

Another problem is once you return to level one you will have less strength and will have low carry capacity especially for Gnomes and Halflings. The issue is further increased due to needing to reacquire Coin Lord and House K favor for additional 80 slots. The favor problem can easily be resolved by allow people to keep their extra slots after TR. On top of all this people will still have to now find even more space to be able to loot from chests due to having many of their items in their character inventory.

To solve all these problems in one each character would need at around an additional 100-300 free personal bank space.

[nokowi]

I acknowledge that my suggestion is not based on detailed technical understanding of the code or the process. And that it is biased by my personal game experiences and desires to not have to use the TR cache anymore. I have always found it clumsy and annoying and a poorly conceived work around for inventory management that puts most of the burden on the player. Given that it seems to be continuously unstable, I favor looking at the effort to find an alternative solution than to keep putting more band aids and duct tape and bubble gum on top of the old ones.

We all want a solution that is easy to use and that works. Without knowing the effort and feasibility to make this happen, we really can't rate the best solution.

Something as simple as adding additional storage prior to TR bank removal might be too much for their system, or it might be very destructive to their revenue model. We don't know.

It would really be appreciated if everyone is open to other suggestions other than their own. I don't see how such suggestions are harmful to SSG, nor whey their needs to be some dispute or competition over whose idea is best.

Discussing pro's and con's could be helpful to devs, but our conclusions (in this issue) will be poorly formulated based on little information of the best path forward.

If they need to hire a programmer, I would say that is a good use of their resources, even at the expense/delay of other things I am interested in. TR should be their top priority (I think it is), followed by customer support for TR issues (unknown priority) and managing the situation in a way that gives players confidence (which seems to be a low priority).

The lowest hanging fruit is to reassure players that that TR issues are rare, that they will be communicated with if they experience an issue, and that the issues will ultimately resolved for those affected.

SSG has done none of these.