Scion of the Ethereal Plane vs Earth

[Miahoo]

I run some numbers...

Lets' say, 150 hide, that'd be 50 SA scaled with MP.
Now with Scion of the Plane of Earth, you get 2d20 acid dmg scaled with SP.

So the numbers are pretty close, SP is easier to increase and not many stuff are immune to acid, while you don't always get SA.
But, you get an additional 20 PRR, which always awesome to have.

It seems you should always go for Earth (or the other elementals if you want MRR).

The other benefits from Ethereal (skills, blur, invis) are ok, nothing more.

Did I miss anything?
Is there any reason to pick ethereal over the elemental scions?

[askrj1]

I run some numbers...

Lets' say, 150 hide, that'd be 50 SA scaled with MP.
Now with Scion of the Plane of Earth, you get 2d20 acid dmg scaled with SP.

So the numbers are pretty close, SP is easier to increase and not many stuff are immune to acid, while you don't always get SA.
But, you get an additional 20 PRR, which always awesome to have.

It seems you should always go for Earth (or the other elementals if you want MRR).

The other benefits from Ethereal (skills, blur, invis) are ok, nothing more.

Did I miss anything?
Is there any reason to pick ethereal over the elemental scions?

2d20 is an average of 21 acid damage, assuming you manage to stack 400 acid power on a rogue build that's 105 acid damage. That's IF you get 400 acid power, and I am not aware of any easy spellpower slots for a rogue that will not affect the build/DPS otherwise

SA scales at 150% of power, so the increase is more sharp - baselines of 100 MP/RP are not uncommon so that's already more 125 sneak damage for your 150 hide (assuming the scaling works the way I think it should, from experience it's probably more, but I have not tested this rigorously).

Many late-game mobs (namely outsiders) are highly resistant/immune to acid, and this can be turned to 0 even more easily in reaper. SA uptime is usually high for rogues played right, either having tanks with aggro or consistantly having deception/bluff on. Overall if only for DPS reasons Ethereal should still consistently outperform Earth, so it's up to you to weigh whether the PRR is worth taking.

[Miahoo]

2d20 is an average of 21 acid damage, assuming you manage to stack 400 acid power on a rogue build that's 105 acid damage. That's IF you get 400 acid power, and I am not aware of any easy spellpower slots for a rogue that will not affect the build/DPS otherwise

SA scales at 150% of power, so the increase is more sharp - baselines of 100 MP/RP are not uncommon so that's already more 125 sneak damage for your 150 hide (assuming the scaling works the way I think it should, from experience it's probably more, but I have not tested this rigorously).

Many late-game mobs (namely outsiders) are highly resistant/immune to acid, and this can be turned to 0 even more easily in reaper. SA uptime is usually high for rogues played right, either having tanks with aggro or consistantly having deception/bluff on. Overall if only for DPS reasons Ethereal should still consistently outperform Earth, so it's up to you to weigh whether the PRR is worth taking.

60 (lvl 30) + 15 (Ship) + 30 (Scion) + 159 Corrosion (Cannith Crafting/Augment) + 28/29 (Spellcasting Implement) + 30 (Spell Craft*) [+ 34 Quality Potency (Celestial Sage)]
* Without an item, without putting points in it

So I get 300 SP with barely any effort - can easily get to 400+ with a potency item (to replace the hide item from lshroud).

To be fair with calculation - I have ~150 MP, not 100.
But as you can see - the numbers are close.

Which mobs are immune to acid? I didn't notice any in rl.

[askrj1]

60 (lvl 30) + 15 (Ship) + 30 (Scion) + 159 Corrosion (Cannith Crafting/Augment) + 28/29 (Spellcasting Implement) + 30 (Spell Craft*) [+ 34 Quality Potency (Celestial Sage)]
* Without an item, without putting points in it

So I get 300 SP with barely any effort - can easily get to 400+ with a potency item (to replace the hide item from lshroud).

To be fair with calculation - I have ~150 MP, not 100.
But as you can see - the numbers are close.

Which mobs are immune to acid? I didn't notice any in rl.

If just RL not that many I think, the immune mobs I can recall off the top of my head are wisps and the optional Abbot in Sunrise. A good number of resistant ones that can reduce the effectivenes significantly: Devils in Mad Tea, Golems in Sunrise, Shadows in Dinner and Strahd raid, maybe a small handful more I missed.

150MP actually scales 50 SA into 162.5, 450 spellpower puts scion at 115.5 average acid.

[Miahoo]

If just RL not that many I think, the immune mobs I can recall off the top of my head are wisps and the optional Abbot in Sunrise. A good number of resistant ones that can reduce the effectivenes significantly: Devils in Mad Tea, Golems in Sunrise, Shadows in Dinner and Strahd raid, maybe a small handful more I missed.

150MP actually scales 50 SA into 162.5, 450 spellpower puts scion at 115.5 average acid.

well thats not that many immune mobs... and I assassinate most of them (except the red names).

it seems like 50dmg/swing, which is alot, but we forget that the acid dmg is 100% of the time (when the mob not immune), while SA affected by fort and aggro.
And I free a whole slot.
Without that slot (for hide) I run with ~100hide, can make it 120 with an augment vs 300SP with the same setup.

Which hide item do u guys run with? I simply cannot afford the lgs item slot.

[askrj1]

I personally rarely hit 150 hide, more like 100-120, just with Shadowhail Cloak.

Keep in mind fort is not the problem in general for a cap rogue, between Precision, Opportunist, Leg. Silent Avenger and Molten Silver Gaunts you're already on 92% fort pierce. Even on constructs and undead that's nearly full negation, and unless they changed their policy on raid bosses purple names only have 75% regardless of type.

Sneak immunity is what you need to be aware of, which is why you need to be diligent in keeping Assassin's Trick up; this further removes any issues you should have with fort. I'm usually on acrobat for melee rogue, but TWF on an assassin should proc deception enough to keep SA going as well, lastly there's always Shiv to throw in - even if with aggro your SA uptime should be well over 80%. In most practical cases if you're assassinating it makes no difference which you use because DPS is not relevant in instakill, and if the mob cannot be assassinated I would reasonably expect more DPS from Ethereal. As I said I don't run assassin, so your experience may be different. Bottom line I would say it depends on how much you really value that 20PRR, which I would agree is not insignificant.

[Miahoo]

I recently replaced my Silent Avenger set with Adherent of the Mists.
10MP, 20 PRR, 20 Pos + 20 SP, and 20 HA are way more valuable imho.
Also, the items (especially the cloak) are much better. I'm also missing a regular doublestrike item when using the avenger set.

I think I got the answers I was looking for.

Thanks for the help!

[askrj1]

I'm actually using Silent Avenger AND Adherent, but it really strectches what I can slot. Not sure what you're using for gloves but if you have no dstrike slot I would assume it's not Molten Silver.

[Miahoo]

I'm actually using Silent Avenger AND Adherent, but it really strectches what I can slot. Not sure what you're using for gloves but if you have no dstrike slot I would assume it's not Molten Silver.

+7 Assassinate, +3 Ins.Assassinate, +7 Ins.Dex CC Gloves with a Green Augment Slot.

[askrj1]

There's probably no real way to re-slot assassinate I guess... how much DC are you sitting on?

[Miahoo]

There's probably no real way to re-slot assassinate I guess... how much DC are you sitting on?

My rog is only 28, but to my calculations, it'll be around 95 unbuffed.
I might just take Astral Plane for the extra 4 DC.

I'm thinking of moving some of the stats to a trinket - i need to see about that.

The problem is ins.dex - you can find it maybe on 1 item, also gloves. So no other way to put both ins.dex and ins.assassinate.
I'm actually having a hard time figure how to set the Adherent of the Mists items properly.

[askrj1]

I actually slotted insdex on crafted boots, along with dodge + something, but I didn't need assassinate so that's probably out of the equation for you. Trinket best-in-slot is probably Echo of Ravenkind for DPS and will fill in deception and a slot for your Adherent set, that's at least not needing to worry about con as I assume you're currently on Mantle of Fury for con and doublestrike.

[Miahoo]

I actually slotted insdex on crafted boots, along with dodge + something, but I didn't need assassinate so that's probably out of the equation for you. Trinket best-in-slot is probably Echo of Ravenkind for DPS and will fill in deception and a slot for your Adherent set, that's at least not needing to worry about con as I assume you're currently on Mantle of Fury for con and doublestrike.

FOM + Haste boots are way too precious for a CC item.
Echo of Ravenkind is one item I thought about. I hold my set while I try to figure which items to use.

Can you post your items, please? I'm curious how you managed to get both sets.

[Emerge2012]

I'm a pretty big fan of Ethereal as that's a TON of DPS that gets delivered fairly consistently. Skills/invis proc are nice too. But...I do agree the elemental damage from the other Scions shouldn't be overlooked. With a LGS spellpower offhand you can pump the numbers pretty high. Plus a acid/neg/acid LGS Dust offhand will be grossly OP if the devs ever fix the issue of mobs not going -prr.

But Silent Avenger set is mandatory for any melee.

[Miahoo]

But Silent Avenger set is mandatory for any melee.

Great to have, yes. mandatory? I don't think so.
I already run with 70% fort bypass (25% Precision, 10% Opportunist, 15% Grim, 20% Item) + 25% Assassin's Trick.
The DS is nice, but I prefer the MoF cloak.
My only doublestrike items are on Belt or Cloak (FoM), so I'll actually miss 7% DS (22% from the cloak) by going this set.

I think Legendary Adherent of the Mists is mandatory for any melee, not the Legendary Silent Avenger.

[Shadow_Jumper]

I think Legendary Adherent of the Mists is mandatory for any melee, not the Legendary Silent Avenger.

Silent avenger is a lot stronger than adherents in terms of dps.

[Miahoo]

Silent avenger is a lot stronger than adherents in terms of dps.

25% fort bypass, 15% DS, 3 SA Dice and 10% Helpless dmg are stronger, I agree.
But you can't ignore 10 MP, 20 HA, 20 PRR and the spell powers which every melee uses nowadays (cocoon or elemental scion which this thread talks about).

Also, the SA cloak is bad compared to FoM Cloak, and I couldn't find doublestrike replacement.
AotM set is much more flexible with items, while SA you don't have any choice, and I didn't find the items that great.

Edit: I might consider it if I ever get the cloak of strahd (will have to find ds somehow).

[askrj1]

If your main aim is DPS nothing beats Avenger right now and Adherent is no comparison. Adherent is more of a nice set of generic bonuses that do help you all around to a lesser extent. If you're intending to solo a lot on elite or low reapers then I can see the Adherent bonuses helpful, any higher skulls or when in a party the functionality tapers off quickly.

Personally nowadays whenever I play a cloth/light toon I almost always exclusively gear around fitting both Avenger and Adherent, but if I had to sacrifice one generally Adherent will be the first to go because many of the pieces are not best in slot and may not be relevant/useful to your build. Coincidentally most if not all of the highest DPS builds now are a mix that includes light/cloth evasion classes using the set. If running damage first I'll go Avenger + Molten Silver, then start filling in the pieces for stats I need otherwise.

If you do swap in Avenger general concensus is Shadowhail is better than Invis Cloak because it also adds hide and ghostly for very little loss in deception value, unless you have specific requirements that will favour Invis Cloak; you get invis guard anyway for ethereal, and nightmare guard is marginaly useful.

Also for assassinate DC I checked with an assassin friend, he's using Ring of the Silver Tongue now, which will definitely free up that glove slot provided you can drop/relocate insdex.

[Shadow_Jumper]

25% fort bypass, 15% DS, 3 SA Dice and 10% Helpless dmg are stronger, I agree.
But you can't ignore 10 MP, 20 HA, 20 PRR and the spell powers which every melee uses nowadays (cocoon or elemental scion which this thread talks about).

Also, the SA cloak is bad compared to FoM Cloak, and I couldn't find doublestrike replacement.
AotM set is much more flexible with items, while SA you don't have any choice, and I didn't find the items that great.

You can do both.

SA: Belt/Cloak/Armor
Adherents: Ring1/Bracers/Boots/Gloves/Trinket or Goggles.

Go for the goggles if you want a heal amp/dodge CC trinket.

[Thrudh]

25% fort bypass, 15% DS, 3 SA Dice and 10% Helpless dmg are stronger, I agree.
But you can't ignore 10 MP, 20 HA, 20 PRR and the spell powers which every melee uses nowadays (cocoon or elemental scion which this thread talks about).

Also, the SA cloak is bad compared to FoM Cloak, and I couldn't find doublestrike replacement.
AotM set is much more flexible with items, while SA you don't have any choice, and I didn't find the items that great.

Edit: I might consider it if I ever get the cloak of strahd (will have to find ds somehow).

Put Doublestrike on Cannith-crafted gloves.. +17 Doublestrike, 61 Heal Amp, +7 Insightful Dex is what I use.

Silent Avenger set is definitely worth fitting in your inventory.