Would you buy more DDO points if they were always double bonus points?

[Chilldude]

Personally, I only ever buy DDO points when they are on double bonus points. In the distant past I bought DDO points and the next day they had a double bonus point sale, it was a real slap to the face. Especially since there is no such thing as a sale on DDO points. There's no warehouse where DDO points are piling up and they need to have a sale to clear inventory. They don't have to sell off the remaining stock of this year's DDO points to make room for the next model year. It's an entirely virtual product, therefore rather than double bonus points being a sale, buying DDO points when they aren't having a double bonus point sale is in reality a penalty.

The thing is, I imagine when they look over their revenue at the end of the year they think, "Those double bonus point sales really work! Look at how many more DDO points we sell during double bonus point sales compared to when they aren't on sale." Except I'm sure there are a great many players like myself that solely purchase points during sales, not because they are tricking us into buying them at that time, but because we don't buy them at any other time as we do not want to incur the penalty.

This is especially true with bigger point purchases! The more points you buy when they are not on sale, the bigger the penalty you are assessed.

Even with just the $60 point purchase you are giving up 2550 DDO points when buying it outside of a double bonus point sale. That's more than Mists of Ravenloft costs in the store!! With the $100 point purchase you're being penalized nearly 5000 DDO points for buying outside of a sale! That's a +8 supreme tome! Of course they are going to sell more when they have a sale, who wants to be penalized thousands of DDO points for buying outside of a sale?

I bought enough points on the last sale to buy Ravenloft and a few odds and ends. I actually rather like Ravenloft, except I had no idea how much inventory space those filigrees were going to eat up! That's with just one run through... and I only got one of the ones I want. I can imagine by the time I get the 5 I want I'll have hundreds of the rest. I was playing on a first life toon that I used to run old school epics with, and he doesn't even have the 2 extra inventory slots, so I load up the store to see how much a filigree bag is, which doesn't appear to even exist, and a couple more inv slots... well, I just don't have enough points. Since there was just a double bonus point sale, I know it'll be a minute before there will be another. Now I'm stuck waiting months (if I'm even around by then), which sucks for me, and they aren't getting my money, which sucks for them.

Do you buy points outside of a sale? Would you buy more if they were always on "sale"?

[askrj1]

I buy points when I need them, less if bonus isn't on. Also depends on how much I've paid into other games that month. Also persistent double bonus would essentially just be a devaluation of DP if they have to consider how much to charge items and packs for in the future.

[TitusOvid]

[...] Except I'm sure there are a great many players like myself that solely purchase points during sales, not because they are tricking us into buying them at that time, but because we don't buy them at any other time as we do not want to incur the penalty.

This is especially true with bigger point purchases! The more points you buy when they are not on sale, the bigger the penalty you are assessed.

Do you buy points outside of a sale? Would you buy more if they were always on "sale"?

I very very rarely buy points outside of sale.

[Dalris_Thane]

I would never buy the DDO points BECAUSE of the double bonus points thing.

It bugs me on an emotional level. I'll never get 25-75% OFF of DDO points. I'll get a double bonus point sliding scale thing. That's WAY too low a deal for me, plus, again, emotionally, smells like legal scam, DESPITE that I'm sure it's industry standard.

Make a nice simple 75% off DDO points? I'll open my wallet. If not, forget it. Heck, I only spend money on expansions with they're 75%+ off, with the sole exception of Ravenloft Ultimate only because I got 2 months included and calculator said that's close enough.

I'm sure it's good for some people, but since I won't see that 75% off the complete total... it's not for me. And, I'm pretty sure, bonus points will never change. We'll never see a 50-75% sale off the DDO points proper.

[askrj1]

I would never buy the DDO points BECAUSE of the double bonus points thing.

It bugs me on an emotional level. I'll never get 25-75% OFF of DDO points. I'll get a double bonus point sliding scale thing. That's WAY too low a deal for me, plus, again, emotionally, smells like legal scam, DESPITE that I'm sure it's industry standard.

Make a nice simple 75% off DDO points? I'll open my wallet. If not, forget it. Heck, I only spend money on expansions with they're 75%+ off, with the sole exception of Ravenloft Ultimate only because I got 2 months included and calculator said that's close enough.

I'm sure it's good for some people, but since I won't see that 75% off the complete total... it's not for me. And, I'm pretty sure, bonus points will never change. We'll never see a 50-75% sale off the DDO points proper.

I think they had discounts on the DDO market for points before, but iirc the rates generally were not great to begin with, and never anywhere near the top pack with double bonus in terms of cost per point.

It's also worth noting while there are no discounts on points per se, items on the store do get discounts every now and then. If you end up waiting for store discounts before any major purchase anyway then that's just like asking for cash vouchers from your local store at a discount then only buying products on discount with them. Economically sound, of course, but not the way I would like to consistently spend my money.

On the contrary, if they did sell points at a discount but there was no longer any "bonus points" for the discounted price, and the actual cost per point was worse than it is now we'll probably have even more people complaining, and you probably would not want to purchase that reduced value yourself.

If you're unwilling to pay for anything in the game unless it's tagged as "discounted' that's fine. If you don't like the way points are priced that's fine too, but I don't think the current point pricing/sales model constitutes anything legally fraudulent. Of course, if you are a lawyer or can get a lawyer to check that out, please do enlighten me.

[Micki]

Do you buy points outside of a sale? Would you buy more if they were always on "sale"?

I have bought points outside of sale when I was a few points short of buying a pack on sale. But a sale is only a sale if it's time limited. Of course, I'd love to see a better sale than double.

[cru121]

I would not.

[AbyssalMage]

Personally, I only ever buy DDO points when they are on double bonus points. In the distant past I bought DDO points and the next day they had a double bonus point sale, it was a real slap to the face. Especially since there is no such thing as a sale on DDO points. There's no warehouse where DDO points are piling up and they need to have a sale to clear inventory. They don't have to sell off the remaining stock of this year's DDO points to make room for the next model year. It's an entirely virtual product, therefore rather than double bonus points being a sale, buying DDO points when they aren't having a double bonus point sale is in reality a penalty.

The thing is, I imagine when they look over their revenue at the end of the year they think, "Those double bonus point sales really work! Look at how many more DDO points we sell during double bonus point sales compared to when they aren't on sale." Except I'm sure there are a great many players like myself that solely purchase points during sales, not because they are tricking us into buying them at that time, but because we don't buy them at any other time as we do not want to incur the penalty.

This is especially true with bigger point purchases! The more points you buy when they are not on sale, the bigger the penalty you are assessed.

Even with just the $60 point purchase you are giving up 2550 DDO points when buying it outside of a double bonus point sale. That's more than Mists of Ravenloft costs in the store!! With the $100 point purchase you're being penalized nearly 5000 DDO points for buying outside of a sale! That's a +8 supreme tome! Of course they are going to sell more when they have a sale, who wants to be penalized thousands of DDO points for buying outside of a sale?

I bought enough points on the last sale to buy Ravenloft and a few odds and ends. I actually rather like Ravenloft, except I had no idea how much inventory space those filigrees were going to eat up! That's with just one run through... and I only got one of the ones I want. I can imagine by the time I get the 5 I want I'll have hundreds of the rest. I was playing on a first life toon that I used to run old school epics with, and he doesn't even have the 2 extra inventory slots, so I load up the store to see how much a filigree bag is, which doesn't appear to even exist, and a couple more inv slots... well, I just don't have enough points. Since there was just a double bonus point sale, I know it'll be a minute before there will be another. Now I'm stuck waiting months (if I'm even around by then), which sucks for me, and they aren't getting my money, which sucks for them.

Do you buy points outside of a sale? Would you buy more if they were always on "sale"?

When is a sale not a sale?

When is a discount not a discount?

American's are so conditioned to Capitalism that they believe they are getting a deal when they aren't.

[Captain_Wizbang]

If things are always on sale (which they are) then what's the point of having a sale?

A discount is not something that's NOT 24/7/365. Companies that advertise that, are lying. That's their normal price, and are using basic psychological manipulation to make you think you're getting a deal.

Heuristic truisms in marketing are a form of gaslighting, and play on emotional reasoning (which includes impulse buying).

So I ask you this, are you really getting double bonus points? OR are the bonus points to begin with gaslighting?

SSG's economic team are very good at what they do. From how many rubber bands they buy, to what the price of expansions will be. A great example is the new Season Pass. From a players standpoint, it's a fantastic value, from their PoV it follows the guidelines they must adhere to. (the bug with ddo points for that pass is costing them a lot of their margins, and they have factored part of that in. because of the cost of the coders fixing it) Therefore they know where and when they can offer discounts a lot more than than the average player realizes.


So, are double bonus points really double, or just a simple bonus? Are all those filigree's you mentioned taking up valuable inventory space wai, or is it part of your emotional reasoning to take action and purchase a colossal augment bag?

The obvious answer to your thread is no.

[Xgya]

I never buy points when there ISN'T a promotion.
I buy a bunch, and then save up for the next big thing.

I wouldn't buy more points if it was always the case, I'd just buy them a bit earlier than usual.

[Jaxtan]

Would you buy more DDO points if they were always double bonus points? No, would wait until they went on sale for triple bonus points.

[Aelonwy]

I buy points only during the double bonus. If it were always on... I might buy somewhat more frequently. I guess that would add up to slightly more sales but I can't say it would be anything more than a negligible improvement for them as we rarely purchase anything larger than the $60 pts pkg, although we do purchase for multiple accounts.

[aGarde]

American's are so conditioned to Capitalism that they believe they are getting a deal when they aren't.

What America has is nothing even close to capitalism. What we have is more akin to socialism, where our government is picking winners and losers, requiring payments (licensing) in order to even operate a taxi (NY costs $750,000 just for the license to operate a cab), effectively enacting a barrier to keep competition out.

No, America is a long long long way from being capitalism.

[Thrudh]

I buy points only during the double bonus. If it were always on... I might buy somewhat more frequently. I guess that would add up to slightly more sales but I can't say it would be anything more than a negligible improvement for them as we rarely purchase anything larger than the $60 pts pkg, although we do purchase for multiple accounts.

Same for me.

I only buy during double bonus points. There have been times when I ran out, and I would have bought right away if they were available at double bonus all the time. They'd make a little bit more off me I guess.

It would make me happier to never run out.

[Thrudh]

What America has is nothing even close to capitalism. What we have is more akin to socialism, where our government is picking winners and losers, requiring payments (licensing) in order to even operate a taxi (NY costs $750,000 just for the license to operate a cab), effectively enacting a barrier to keep competition out.

No, America is a long long long way from being capitalism.

You're wrong, but that's neither here nor there.

[sk3l3t0r]

[SiliconScout]

Same for me.

I only buy during double bonus points. There have been times when I ran out, and I would have bought right away if they were available at double bonus all the time. They'd make a little bit more off me I guess.

It would make me happier to never run out.

But would you really or would marketing just get you again? (and my "you" I really address all of us here, it's not personal)

First off note that they have "Bonus" points on the package, but these bonus points are always there so are they really bonus? What if I have a car that I am selling and we give bonus tires and a bonus engine, on every single one. Would you fall for that, probably not but when it's something like "points" marketing has a heyday. Still I digress

Let's look at say the $34.95 package

Base 2200
Bonus 950
TOTAL 3150

Double points (note it's double BONUS points, combined it's still less than double the BASE points)

Base 2200
Bonus 1900
TOTAL 4100

And though the numbers work better in the players favour at higher price points don't think it's all that.

$200 bucks in points looks like this
Base 12500
Bonus 10500
TOTAL 23000

Double points

Base 12500
Bonus 21000
TOTAL 33500

"Double Points" is really 45% more points ... still a LONG away from "Double"

So right there marketing is winning and doing their job. You hear "double points" and think GREAT DEAL but it's really 30%-45% more points not 100% more points. But DOUBLE sounds so much better right? The numbers don't start working in "your favour" until you are dropping $60.00+ on points, very nearly the cost of a years subscription, and in the case of the "best deal" 2 years sub.

So let's say that the "Double Bonus Points" is permanent. That means for $34.95 instead of 3150 points you will always get 4100 points. Always, every day, forever. Would you keep buying the points then or would you wait for the "sale on points". Let's say they never again give a sale on points you will just wait for the sale on the content then, sure, but suddenly you find that most content gets a 10% or 15% sale price instead of a 20% - 30% sale you used to see.

Face it they need sales to stay in business and I am sure have figured out what the return is on the "bought x2 points" then bought on sale break points are and whatever pricing that works out to be is where they need it to keep the lights on. If they change one end of that spectrum the other has to move with it. Also those 25 points you get per favour, since DP are devalued they are even less relevant. Those 500 DP that you get as a VIP, also devalued because pricing is going up to adjust for the inflated number of DP floating out there.

Sure in the short term it's a bonanza but after that, once the price is what you are "used to" how long until people ask for points sales or complain about the lack of substantial discounts and it will happen because it HAS to happen to keep the lights on.

[lyrecono]

From a retailers standpoint sales are scams, just like the normal price is a scam.

Printcartridges are a good example, sure a 30 bucks is cheaper then the usual 50 but the entire thing cost the retailer 5 bucks.

The same goes with a lot of the ddo store goods, they have been overpriced for a decade because of the games design.
An ethical gaming company wouldn't have produced this many ing and collectebles with the express goal to sell bags.
An ethical wouldn't program such a scarcity to the point where people would be selling rare raid items for thousands of dollars using third party chat programs, nor would it try to get a piece of the action with a shard auctionhouse.

The same goes for ethical players, do you provide incentive for these marketing schemes or do you vote with your wallet?

Looking at the patch update, it seems some players already fell for the season pass, more bucks then brains as a guildy would say. Especially since the devs have never posted their roadmaps and publishing dates for the comming 2 years, as far as i know.
They could close the servers the day the season pass sale ends for as far as we know.

Its kinda funny how late ssg/turbine are to the season pass game.
Outside of some sports games, season passes, online gambling (the daily dice& chest rerolls), microtransactions and the like are severely critisized in the real gaming media (not the paid of shills), to the point some countries are outlawing online gambling in games.

It makes me wonder though, is it so hard to build&maintain a game? Do you realy need to introduce shady practices to keep the lights on? Or is it some shark like behaviour? Did the devs/management smell the money and kept going with these practices?

And what is up with the player base? Why do we accept these practices?
Why do we let the p2w powercreep get out of hand? I don't mean the few that complain on the forum, i mean why do we spend the money in these quantities?
Why spend 50 bucks per main toon to upgrade your stats by+1 every 6-12 months?
To keep up with the rest?

Why, if reaper mode was meant as a challange, are people grinding reaper points (even past a 100 rp)? Why spend so much money on 50% exp pots on a gimmick? A year (or 2) from now, all that hard work will be invalidated.
I know that some people sparked conversations when they joined a party, due to high hp or sp, but nowadays, who cares?
So, who are they doing this for? Fear of being left behind in raids?
Some badge of honner when you complete a raid on the highest dificulty on your server?
Do you remeber who completed the first elite chronoscope? The first elite titan? (Assuming enough people are around to remember), no, if you want a sence of acomplishment, get it from real life, more important then that; don't get draged down by others, whether by sheer luck, cheating or hard work they manage to get their toons a little stronger, it's no reason to reach for store bought short cuts in a game that is designed to annoy you with an unreaseneble grind.
Stop giving in to peer pressure.

Wouldn't you get more satisfaction if you earned that tome?




Then again, assuming the grind was honnest too or no grind was needed to participate in the raiding scene.
Things would be better if the devs did a better job on the inventory and game ballance, so that normally build first lifers have a good time and decent exp progressio in normal content, instead of assuming everyone is a tr.

And we as players should be more accomodating to those without (so many) pastlives&reaper points.

Maybe we can get a fairer game that way that draws in paying customers instead of trying to cater to the lazy whales.


You can't blame a guy for dreaming, i guess

[MacRighteous]

No - I would just wait until there was a triple point sale...

[Chilldude]

When is a sale not a sale?

When is a discount not a discount?

American's are so conditioned to Capitalism that they believe they are getting a deal when they aren't.

Actually, the entire premise of my post is quite to the contrary, that I do not see DBP as a deal, rather buying points outside of DBS as a penalty. I said exactly that in my post.

As for your questions, are they rhetorical? Because, again, I've specifically addressed both questions in my post. Granted, there is some wiggle room for an existential debate on what philosophically constitutes a discount/sale, but I've made a pretty compelling argument against the idea of being able to off a discount on virtual goods without anyone making any attempt in rebuttal.

However, I'm going to explore this idea of discounted virtual goods a bit further even, as your reply made me examine the concept in a different light. Does there exist a situation in which it's possible to offer a genuine discount on a virtual item? A structural tenant in my argument that DDO points never actually go on sale but in reality assess a penalty when purchased outside of a DBP "sale" is the regularity and certainty of future "sales". That is to say, sitting here today, I think we can all agree that future DBP sales are a foregone conclusion. Precisely because of this fact that they do happen with regular occurrence, when you purchase points outside of a DBP sale you know you are getting less for your money than you will be able to get at some unknown point in the future. If you make the purchase anyway then you are accepting this penalty.

I'll change the time frames to an absurd level to better illustrate my point. Let's reverse the time in which there is a DBP sale and when there is not. Now, the vast majority of the time purchases of DDO points receive double bonus points, and it's only a few weeks a year in which this "sale" does not take place. Do you still see it as a discount? Be honest with yourself, forget about the labels, if $50 buys you X amount of DDO points 48 weeks a year, but 4 randomly spread out weeks per year that same $50 would buy 25% less DDO points, would you honestly see the 48 weeks as being a sale?

A virtual item is worth exactly whatever the seller lists it for. Therefore since the cost of a DDO point is $X+y 95% of the year and $X 5% of the year, and that cost is determined solely by the seller irrespective of any outside market forces, they are expressly assigning a different value to DDO points at arbitrary times of the year. If they were selling apples or oranges, then they would have to compete with other growers as well as manage a very defined, but ever diminishing, supply with a relatively normal demand, albeit with obvious spikes around certain events. An orange is not a virtual item, they have to consider shelf life, crop size, product loss, product quality and a myriad of other factors. The value of an orange actually does change throughout the year because all these market forces are at work, and yet, despite this, by and large growers and merchants endeavor to absorb that fluctuation internally so that consumers can experience a relatively consistent price point.

DDO point cost fluctuation is entirely artificial, created by the seller as nothing more than a marketing gimmick. They want to encourage customers to buy more than they otherwise would in order to make it through the indeterminate time frame between DBP sales. They are not discounting the price of DDO points during a DBP sale, I would imagine the bulk of their point sales are in fact during DBP sales, therefore they are artificially increasing the price of points outside of DBP sales to create the illusion of a sale in order to drive the market during DBP sales.

Back to the question at hand, is it even possible to discount a virtual item? Especially a virtual currency valid only in a completely controlled market run by a monopoly. Perhaps surprisingly, I would say yes, it is possible. If the seller is legitimately incurring a loss as a result of a reduced price that was motivated by a financial demand then it would be a genuine discount. I think a good example of this is the Season Pass. While I do not consider the Season Pass to be a good deal at all because VIP is a complete ripoff, I think they have legitimately increased the value of what the customer receives compared to standard VIP. While 2 years of standard VIP is only $200, I think the items in the Season Pass bundle can easily offset the other $100. I think owning all content they release in the next 2 years, daily gold rolls, the XP elixirs, and the otto box legitimately reduces the price of those items below what they would normally cost regardless of any other "sales" or "discounts". For certain people who would have been VIP anyway, and would have purchased many of the items in the store anyway, it's certainly a deal.

As someone who was originally VIP and would have preferred to remain VIP, I've long since held they need to do something to increase the value of VIP. I've always been of the opinion that VIP should mean Very Important Person, as in a customer who is so important to your business that you treat them very well to retain their business. I don't think a VIP should really ever need or want to spend any money on the game above and beyond the subscription. Tomes should be free, XP elixirs, cosmetic items, guild ship portals, all races, all content, raid timer resets, gold seal hirelings, pretty much everything outside of potions, cakes, and other such items that would significantly change the way the game is played for VIPs if they had unlimited access to them. If VIP were like that, then everyone here would be VIP and they'd have more money than they knew what to do with.

After all that I do want to reiterate the original point of the thread, albeit phrased a bit differently. Instead of asking would you buy more DDO points if there were always/never a DBP sale, I instead ask...

Do you ever find yourself not buying points even though you want to buy points because you know there will be a DBP sale where you will get significantly more more your money?