Request for a few "Ranged" specific items

[Captain_Wizbang]

As a discussion was started in another thread about a dps glove slot, and the replies it garnered here and in-game, can we please get a few Ranged specific items.

eg......The RL sets are nice, but to use Silent Avenger, I have to slot the Mist-laden Vestment light armor. and that actually works against one build in-particular.

As rangers more directly havent had many diverse items made for them it is a great time to consider this.

Things I would like to see:

Double shot on rings, necklaces & gloves.

Ranged Power on gloves and augments

Quality or Insightful hit dice for Archer's Stance

Improved Archers stance augments

Just throwing some ideas out there.

Please SSG, rangers need a little love, as the class isn't do for an update anytime soon

[Emerge2012]

The class isn't due for update because it doesn't need one and every enchantment you're asking for already exists on items.

I spend hours pondering gearsets for every build I make and none of them are ever perfect. You need to accept this.

[Captain_Wizbang]

You need to accept this.

And YOU are the voice of SSG? get a grip dude, just because you don't agree with someones PoV, doesn't mean you're right.

You need to accept that you don't represent the player base or the development team.

In fact just reading the base of your posts, you seem to hold you opinion above others. Lot's of negative replies. I dont want to hear your rhetoric please. There are other threads for you to go disagree on, thank you

[barecm]

The class isn't due for update because it doesn't need one and every enchantment you're asking for already exists on items.

I spend hours pondering gearsets for every build I make and none of them are ever perfect. You need to accept this.

I agree with your statement on building gear sets. Nothing is ever perfect. You ultimately wind up sacrificing something to get something higher on your own priority list. If you ever do find the perfect build / set up, you can expect some sort of nerf. Just how it always has been with this game.

Where I disagree is where you say that class doesn't need an update. I may agree that certain portions don't need an update, but longbow using rangers are way away from shuriken throwing monks and xbow users (both great and repeater); which is where I am assuming the OP is coming from.

IMHO the biggest thing they can do is turn Manyshot into a stance. This ability has long been what the devs have told us is holding back further development of ranged ranger skills. If Manyshot went from a chance to shoot an extra arrow (based on BaB), it should be a stance that gives a bonus to doubleshot also based on BaB. So, maybe like a base of 20% DS with a scaling up to like 50% at full BaB. I would be flexible on the %'s, but making it a stance is the idea.

Everything else is nice as far as items and such, but really it is just a rant on making items that fit your build better. Personally, I like the Molten Gloves. I can get all of what you list from other sources. It just takes some planning and the effort to get them.

[Coffey]

I agree that if there is no update anytime soon for rangers they should add some bandaid items to bring it up to par with other ranged options. More ranged alacrity bonus items would be a nice add.

[Emerge2012]

And YOU are the voice of SSG? get a grip dude, just because you don't agree with someones PoV, doesn't mean you're right.

You need to accept that you don't represent the player base or the development team.

In fact just reading the base of your posts, you seem to hold you opinion above others. Lot's of negative replies. I dont want to hear your rhetoric please. There are other threads for you to go disagree on, thank you

Plenty of people still play ranged rangers and do quite well with everything that's available. Items just simply aren't a problem. Unless of course a player has made up their mind that they can't live without outdated Crippling gear. But that would be that player's problem and not a problem with ranger.

Where I disagree is where you say that class doesn't need an update. I may agree that certain portions don't need an update, but longbow using rangers are way away from shuriken throwing monks and xbow users (both great and repeater); which is where I am assuming the OP is coming from.

IMHO the biggest thing they can do is turn Manyshot into a stance. This ability has long been what the devs have told us is holding back further development of ranged ranger skills. If Manyshot went from a chance to shoot an extra arrow (based on BaB), it should be a stance that gives a bonus to doubleshot also based on BaB. So, maybe like a base of 20% DS with a scaling up to like 50% at full BaB. I would be flexible on the %'s, but making it a stance is the idea.

A change to Manyshot would be neat but would cause some conflict. One issue being that ranged ranger isn't behind the other ranged options. Outside of the 10rog/6ftr/4arti build I'd take a pure ranged ranger over the any of the rest. Shuriken builds can't heal, have no crowd control, and other than one raid weapon offer very little DPS. Even then Spite is only really good against things that can bleed. Repeaters haven't been good for a long time though. Most repeater builds are arti based so they get some healing, some buffs, a little of everything. But they don't get the goods in damage without excessive investment and if they do then their spell dc goes down the drain. Rogue builds without fusillade offer even less.

The second issue, the important one, is that most players still want to see ranged rangers as nothing more than furyshotting monsters. That's changed. The strength of ranged ranger is now wisdom builds with solid DPS and easy to gear for no-fail crowd control. First life characters can touch 90 wisdom without raid loot. 90 wisdom, plus all the enchantment imbues, plus the basic ravenloft gear allows them to lockdown everything that isn't undead or red named. No-fail paralyze in high reaper is amazing. Using Pin to make them helpless is even more amazing. Frog with that kind of wisdom deletes undead and constructs. Speaking of constructs, with a wisdom based ranger constructs are instakilled on 20's using Smiting arrows.

Really, not only is ranged ranger not in a bad place but it's actually on a level all it's own.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Really, not only is ranged ranger not in a bad place but it's actually on a level all it's own.

No one suggested anything contrary.

I am not saying the gear sets are ho-hum.

What I am suggesting is that a few non-set items would be nice to have. I own all expansions and vip, I have access to all of it. BUT what about the players that dont?

Granted random loot is dropping gear that's real nice as of late, but that's not in anyone's control on obtaining specific items with specific attributes.

Stand alone named items have always been around, but the recent trend are set bonuses. Nothing wrong with that as long as stand alone items get produced as well.

The above statement IS my point

[Emerge2012]

No one suggested anything contrary.

I am not saying the gear sets are ho-hum.

What I am suggesting is that a few non-set items would be nice to have. I own all expansions and vip, I have access to all of it. BUT what about the players that dont?

Granted random loot is dropping gear that's real nice as of late, but that's not in anyone's control on obtaining specific items with specific attributes.

Stand alone named items have always been around, but the recent trend are set bonuses. Nothing wrong with that as long as stand alone items get produced as well.

The above statement IS my point

Sorry, I don't see anything missing.

[barecm]

Plenty of people still play ranged rangers and do quite well with everything that's available. Items just simply aren't a problem. Unless of course a player has made up their mind that they can't live without outdated Crippling gear. But that would be that player's problem and not a problem with ranger.



A change to Manyshot would be neat but would cause some conflict. One issue being that ranged ranger isn't behind the other ranged options. Outside of the 10rog/6ftr/4arti build I'd take a pure ranged ranger over the any of the rest. Shuriken builds can't heal, have no crowd control, and other than one raid weapon offer very little DPS. Even then Spite is only really good against things that can bleed. Repeaters haven't been good for a long time though. Most repeater builds are arti based so they get some healing, some buffs, a little of everything. But they don't get the goods in damage without excessive investment and if they do then their spell dc goes down the drain. Rogue builds without fusillade offer even less.

The second issue, the important one, is that most players still want to see ranged rangers as nothing more than furyshotting monsters. That's changed. The strength of ranged ranger is now wisdom builds with solid DPS and easy to gear for no-fail crowd control. First life characters can touch 90 wisdom without raid loot. 90 wisdom, plus all the enchantment imbues, plus the basic ravenloft gear allows them to lockdown everything that isn't undead or red named. No-fail paralyze in high reaper is amazing. Using Pin to make them helpless is even more amazing. Frog with that kind of wisdom deletes undead and constructs. Speaking of constructs, with a wisdom based ranger constructs are instakilled on 20's using Smiting arrows.

Really, not only is ranged ranger not in a bad place but it's actually on a level all it's own.

I understand and agree with the dps/crowd control option. I go RP vs full DS and get over 400 RP fully buffed and 75% standing DS with my ranger build posted in these forums. Where I disagree is saying that other classes cannot heal. Cocoon is available to all classes and is very efficient in healing. A decent UMD allows for scroll use as well. Cocoon costs less than the cure serious that rangers get. Also, I run a shuriken monk and have run great crossbow builds on a pure rogue; they both way out perform anything a bow using ranger can do. The only benefit for ranged rangers is some spells like FoM (but there are plenty of item options or potion options) and a nice benefit of not having to run elf to get access to AA and also have full access to Deepwood tree.

The proposed change to Manyshot would be in response to the long used excuse by the devs that Manyshot currently holds future development of ranged combat (that can utilize Manyshot). Furyshot being one of those things that creates issues.

The bottom line is that with all the other changes to help other forms of combat that are happening, I would like to see some love for the longbow users.

[Emerge2012]

I understand and agree with the dps/crowd control option. I go RP vs full DS and get over 400 RP fully buffed and 75% standing DS with my ranger build posted in these forums. Where I disagree is saying that other classes cannot heal. Cocoon is available to all classes and is very efficient in healing. A decent UMD allows for scroll use as well. Cocoon costs less than the cure serious that rangers get. Also, I run a shuriken monk and have run great crossbow builds on a pure rogue; they both way out perform anything a bow using ranger can do. The only benefit for ranged rangers is some spells like FoM (but there are plenty of item options or potion options) and a nice benefit of not having to run elf to get access to AA and also have full access to Deepwood tree.

The proposed change to Manyshot would be in response to the long used excuse by the devs that Manyshot currently holds future development of ranged combat (that can utilize Manyshot). Furyshot being one of those things that creates issues.

The bottom line is that with all the other changes to help other forms of combat that are happening, I would like to see some love for the longbow users.

Cocoon is better than nothing but still very limited. Take damage after casting? No ticks. Sure the few ranger heals aren't strong but I'd rather have 4 of them to spam on myself or someone else over having 1 that may or may not heal past the first tick. Scroll healing isn't viable at all.

I've also run a Spite monk, fusillade Volley builds, a 12fvs/6monk/2ftr AA, as well as pure ranger. Pure monk was the worst of the lot. Had (after the vistani versatility nerf) decent dps against bleeding targets but was pretty bad for everything else. Honestly felt the pure ranger was just considerably better as a whole once the healing/cc was figured in. CC for trash and furyshotting bosses/hard targets was very nice.

Oh, and I guess I forgot to say exactly why pure ranger is the significantly better healer. Wisdom based Aasimar.

And a quick edit to remind you that your ranger build isn't wisdom based CC focused and falls into the old "furyshot is the only thing they can do!" mantra even though you run in Dreadnought. Ranger strength is CC between the huge burst damage. Without CC focus you're better off with a monk split for 10K.

Double edit to say that I think your ranger is a fantastic build, truly. But I'd go capstone in AA, 11 in deepwood for sniper shot, and the rest in Falconry for wisdom based no fail CC, more helpless damage, big insightful damage bump, and the better gearing swaps that would come from doing so. Drow Sage helm would net you 19wisdom, 80 heal amp, true seeing, and on hit daze when upgraded. Then could switch to Shadow's Footsteps for doubleshot/dodge, dump Leg Nightfall for Band of Insightful Commands, and change your goggles to seeker15/spot22/ins wisdom7. The DPS lost from deepwood (rp/crit range) would be made up by the high ins from from Falconry, seeker, and higher helpless multiplier. Boss damage would be less but that shouldn't be the focus anyways and your Trinket will pull aggro in KT, which is bad. Also no more neck swaps except for the DW clicky. Any racial points left over go into Aasimar cores for hand uses and more wisdom.

[barecm]

Cocoon is better than nothing but still very limited. Take damage after casting? No ticks. Sure the few ranger heals aren't strong but I'd rather have 4 of them to spam on myself or someone else over having 1 that may or may not heal past the first tick. Scroll healing isn't viable at all.

You said "can't heal" not can't heal as well.

revisiting your other post, you say:

Shuriken builds can't heal, have no crowd control, and other than one raid weapon offer very little DPS.

So again, see above for can't heal vs can't heal as well. Then, have no crowd control? Shiradi Champion offers 3 sources. Very little dps? Read the forums to find the many very high dps builds listed.

The fact of the matter is that shuriken thrower builds out class bow builds in terms of dps. We need more than some items to make up for it.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Rangers have a decent form of cc when a certain build is used.

Aasimar/Falconry/ true Ranger.

By default, you're dumping everything into wisdom, which makes ranger spells somewhat effective.

Add spellcraft ap's items and transmutation items, and entangle works like a champ.

Even in low reaper, Epic is a hit or miss, but I havent spent a lot of time with that (yet).

Rangers are in a good place, my point is to get a few stand alone items with main attributes of a ranger in mind, and NOT part of a set.

That's all.

[Emerge2012]

You said "can't heal" not can't heal as well.

revisiting your other post, you say:



So again, see above for can't heal vs can't heal as well. Then, have no crowd control? Shiradi Champion offers 3 sources. Very little dps? Read the forums to find the many very high dps builds listed.

The fact of the matter is that shuriken thrower builds out class bow builds in terms of dps. We need more than some items to make up for it.

Cocoon is universal and monk doesn't get spell points. They are so limited you might as well say they can't heal.

Likewise, anyone can run in Shiradi, but nobody does because it sucks.

[barecm]

Cocoon is universal and monk doesn't get spell points. They are so limited you might as well say they can't heal.

Likewise, anyone can run in Shiradi, but nobody does because it sucks.

You keep making useless points. You can get spell points, not a lot, but enough. Items and arguments can grant a few hundred, plus levels in epic grants sp along with past lives (which I am completionist on that character). Since coccon is such a low cost, high result healing spell, it is very easy to survive off granted sp. Also, I am not saying you have to run shiradi (I run LD myself) but some people do and saying NOBODY does, is again not correct. There are more than a few that do to take advantage of the no fail save crowd control options. I twist in pin in my build.

In addition to all my other points, monks do get a healing ability along with Ki renewal meditation things. I understand it is for in between fights, but it helps and is basically free. They also can heal with the unarmed ability but we are talking about ranged here... but worth mentioning anyway.

So, to recap your incorrect comments:

-Monks can heal, not as well as rangers, but they can heal themselves with cocoon, scrolls, meditation, and healing spring if they want to twist it in or run shiradi. Probably others I am missing.
-Monks dps is high. In terms of ranged combat, it is the highest. The attack speed, number of attacks, use of off hand procs, and quivers make the damage add up quickly per throw. Higher ended shurikens like Spite, dawnbringer, LGS, and maybe even Thunderforged also add a lot of proc damage. Plus off handed damage from Celestia (I use a Thunderforged item that helps with healing) and a quiver for Ranged power or whatever. Plenty of options.

My point here is that longbow users have been getting the shaft since launch. They once in beta had manyshot as a stance but saw how OP it was (then) and have had the fear of ranged every since; which is nearly 13 years ago for heaven's sake. It is time to help longbows out now and stop tweaking combat styles that are already in a good place.

[Captain_Wizbang]

My point here is that longbow users have been getting the shaft since launch. They once in beta had manyshot as a stance but saw how OP it was (then) and have had the fear of ranged every since; which is nearly 13 years ago for heaven's sake. It is time to help longbows out now and stop tweaking combat styles that are already in a good place.

Barecm this poster emerge is one negative person, go look at his posts, almost all of them he disagrees with someone for something. And you're going down that road with him. It's pointless, and not part of the topic. Thanks.

Now back to MY point........

[Emerge2012]

You keep making useless points. You can get spell points, not a lot, but enough. Items and arguments can grant a few hundred, plus levels in epic grants sp along with past lives (which I am completionist on that character). Since coccon is such a low cost, high result healing spell, it is very easy to survive off granted sp. Also, I am not saying you have to run shiradi (I run LD myself) but some people do and saying NOBODY does, is again not correct. There are more than a few that do to take advantage of the no fail save crowd control options. I twist in pin in my build.

In addition to all my other points, monks do get a healing ability along with Ki renewal meditation things. I understand it is for in between fights, but it helps and is basically free. They also can heal with the unarmed ability but we are talking about ranged here... but worth mentioning anyway.

So, to recap your incorrect comments:

-Monks can heal, not as well as rangers, but they can heal themselves with cocoon, scrolls, meditation, and healing spring if they want to twist it in or run shiradi. Probably others I am missing.
-Monks dps is high. In terms of ranged combat, it is the highest. The attack speed, number of attacks, use of off hand procs, and quivers make the damage add up quickly per throw. Higher ended shurikens like Spite, dawnbringer, LGS, and maybe even Thunderforged also add a lot of proc damage. Plus off handed damage from Celestia (I use a Thunderforged item that helps with healing) and a quiver for Ranged power or whatever. Plenty of options.

My point here is that longbow users have been getting the shaft since launch. They once in beta had manyshot as a stance but saw how OP it was (then) and have had the fear of ranged every since; which is nearly 13 years ago for heaven's sake. It is time to help longbows out now and stop tweaking combat styles that are already in a good place.

Useless point is trying to say that Cocoon makes anyone a healer. It does not. Long cast time, long cooldown, possibility for only a single tic, on a character with few if any spellpoints. In reaper, on a monk, you'll need several casts. Again, scroll healing is fine between fights but that's never the issue and is a useless point in itself. Healing Spring is every 20 seconds maximum, in a bad destiny, a bad destiny that puts already lacking shuriken DPS into laughable territory. Let's not pretend you're going to twist it either.

10rog/6ftr/4arti over shuriken all day every day. This isn't even close. Celestia is a junk offhand, even TOEE is better since the radiant portion does not proc, even though people like to claim it does. Do you even play this game? Anything less than Spite is TERRIBLE DPS. And as I said before, Spite doesn't work on everything, and Volley has TWO built in LGS procs. Volley and Fusillade win every time.

Lastly, bow users are absolutely fine if you build them correctly. You should try it.

Barecm this poster emerge is one negative person, go look at his posts, almost all of them he disagrees with someone for something. And you're going down that road with him. It's pointless, and not part of the topic. Thanks.

Now back to MY point........

Cool, a stalker.

[barecm]

Useless point is trying to say that Cocoon makes anyone a healer. It does not.

Now you want a healer, not just be able to heal yourself. Ok, ranger isn't going to get you that either, but I appreciate you making it easy to pick you apart.

Long cast time

Wrong. Can jump cast this as easily as anything else.

In reaper, on a monk, you'll need several casts.

In reaper, all self healing is nerfed. So how is that monk specific? So wrong here as well.

Do you even play this game?

You're funny

Lastly, bow users are absolutely fine if you build them correctly. You should try it.

I have a good build. In fact, one of the better builds, or at least that is what I have been told via feedback on the forums and from others on my server. I have it posted in the ranger forum. Go check it out and give yourself a free education.

All that being said, longbows still lag behind the dps of properly built throwers and great xbow users. I may be doing more damage for 1 arrow vs 1 shuriken hit, but you are hitting like 6-7 times more per throw.

Lastly, I think I will listen to Lagin and just ignore you from here on.

[Captain_Wizbang]

, longbows still lag behind the dps of properly built throwers and great xbow users. I may be doing more damage for 1 arrow vs 1 shuriken hit, but you are hitting like 6-7 times more per throw..

Fusillade vs manyshot. Gee thats a no-brainer.

I didnt want to go down this road, but yes, artis vs rangers, is like comparing locks to any other caster that has to actually pay attention to sp

[Emerge2012]

Now you want a healer, not just be able to heal yourself. Ok, ranger isn't going to get you that either, but I appreciate you making it easy to pick you apart.


Wrong. Can jump cast this as easily as anything else.


In reaper, all self healing is nerfed. So how is that monk specific? So wrong here as well.


You're funny


I have a good build. In fact, one of the better builds, or at least that is what I have been told via feedback on the forums and from others on my server. I have it posted in the ranger forum. Go check it out and give yourself a free education.

All that being said, longbows still lag behind the dps of properly built throwers and great xbow users. I may be doing more damage for 1 arrow vs 1 shuriken hit, but you are hitting like 6-7 times more per throw.

Lastly, I think I will listen to Lagin and just ignore you from here on.

I want something that can either heal sufficiently or have the DPS to make up for it. Shuriken monk has neither.

Jumping doesn't make you cast spells faster. Do you really believe that?

That's right, all self healing is nerfed in reaper. Which is why it's important to have more than what cocoon can offer every 12 seconds.

I like your build, I do. But it's dated and I'd never call it one of the better builds as a whole. Not only are there a small handful of better ranged builds but even your own could be better if you weren't stuck on being dex-based like it's still 2013. Clearly I saw it, that's why I offered enhancement/gear changes to make it better before. Also nobody is tossing 6-7 shuriken per throw, no less getting 6-7 more per animation. I'm glad you see bow use isn't the equivalent DPS, maybe now you'll stop trying so hard to make it that way - might even alter your build to become more useful and not lead others down the same path of not-as-good that you've been travelling.

And you probably should listen to him. Certainly not getting anywhere here by calling monks sufficient healers, claiming jumping cast spells faster, and advocating for dex bow use.

Fusillade vs manyshot. Gee thats a no-brainer.

I didnt want to go down this road, but yes, artis vs rangers, is like comparing locks to any other caster that has to actually pay attention to sp

Speaking of paying attention - did you notice that conversation was about fusi builds vs shuriken builds and that ranger had nothing to do with it? No?

Neat.

[blerkington]

One thing I'd like to see with gear at cap is that items giving stat bonuses be less closely tied to a particular combat style.

We've had a run recently of BIS DEX/INS DEX items also carrying ranged combat effects. Now while that's nice for DEX based ranged builds, it's not so great for builds using other combat styles that are DEX based such as melee, nor is it all that good for INT and WIS based ranged builds either.

I'd like to see a decoupling of combat style and stat bonuses, so that these items become more useful to a larger variety of builds. The idea would be to put other effects on these items that are more widely useful and have greater concentration of combat style specific effects on single or paired items. It's not a simple problem and it would need to be done while also looking at other items, but it may result in an improvement.

Some other solutions would include more gear with these effects and/or abandoning the obnoxious four effects per item rule that is currently doing such a great job of messing up endgame gearing, and is also far more problematic for some builds than others.

Thanks.