Prowess Nerf

[CaptainPurge]

As was pointed out by a few players though, these nerfs always hit those late to the party the hardest. Usually those are the new players. For the players who are unsure if their recently slotted prowess filigreed are worth it, the answer is yes. It is still on average giving you +15 MP, +11 PRR and +2 AB over anything else you could slot for melee.

K now how many even build for action boosts? Only those that care.

[janave]

I wish they made the sets less cookie cutter, if you want (BUFF_TYPE), eg: best defense, offense, spell dcs, etc...you go...that one fixed route. This eliminates interesting custom weapon build options.

The problem isnt the nerf, the problem is there is no fallback option at all, players are still stuck with Prowress, they are just less effective now.

IF DPS
GOTO Prowress

design error, solution is to improve other sets

[acemonkey]

Re: u41 Release notes goes live 12-5-18 Proposed U41 Melee Non-Prowess Optimal Set

1. Spines of the Manticore/The Wreath of Flame, raid filigree: +6 Melee Power (Rare: +4 Melee Power)
2. Spines of the Manticore: Attack and Damage: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons (Rare: +2 PRR)
3. Sucker Punch/One Against Many, raid filigree: +2 Strength (Rare: +4 Melee Power)
4. Sucker Punch, Melee Power: +3 Melee Power (Rare: +2 Melee Power)
5. Sucker Punch, Attack and Damage: +1 to hit and damage (Rare: +2 PRR)
6. One Against Many, Melee Power: +3 Melee Power (Rare: +2 Melee Power)
7. Treachery, Melee Power: +3 Melee Power (Rare: +2 Melee Power)
8. Treachery, Critical Confirmation and Damage: +2 to critical confirmation rolls and damage (Rare +2 PRR)

Spines of the Manticore 2 Pieces: +2 Damage
Sucker Punch 2 Pieces: +5 Melee Power
Sucker Punch 3 pieces: +1d6 sneak attack damage
One Against Many 2 Pieces: +5 Melee Power
Treachery 2 Pieces: +5 Melee Power

Total
44 Melee Power
2 Strength
1 to hit
3 to damage
2 to critical confirmation rolls and damage
3.5 Sneak attack Damage

I hope you are happy now ?

Not really, I don't raid, so I don't care about that. Also, it's theoretical, wait til you see it working in game to declare it usable.

[Saekee]

Re: u41 Release notes goes live 12-5-18 Proposed U41 Melee Non-Prowess Optimal Set

1. Spines of the Manticore/The Wreath of Flame, raid filigree: +6 Melee Power (Rare: +4 Melee Power)
2. Spines of the Manticore: Attack and Damage: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons (Rare: +2 PRR)
3. Sucker Punch/One Against Many, raid filigree: +2 Strength (Rare: +4 Melee Power)
4. Sucker Punch, Melee Power: +3 Melee Power (Rare: +2 Melee Power)
5. Sucker Punch, Attack and Damage: +1 to hit and damage (Rare: +2 PRR)
6. One Against Many, Melee Power: +3 Melee Power (Rare: +2 Melee Power)
7. Treachery, Melee Power: +3 Melee Power (Rare: +2 Melee Power)
8. Treachery, Critical Confirmation and Damage: +2 to critical confirmation rolls and damage (Rare +2 PRR)

Spines of the Manticore 2 Pieces: +2 Damage
Sucker Punch 2 Pieces: +5 Melee Power
Sucker Punch 3 pieces: +1d6 sneak attack damage
One Against Many 2 Pieces: +5 Melee Power
Treachery 2 Pieces: +5 Melee Power

Total
44 Melee Power
2 Strength
1 to hit
3 to damage
2 to critical confirmation rolls and damage
3.5 Sneak attack Damage

I hope you are happy now ?

This is exactly the math I have been doing in my assassin filigree thread:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6156935

[Vish]

Well I'm not surprised
Seems prowess has been melee goto since released
I'm kinda miffed about stealth nerf and no word
But that's understandable seeing it would just be flames
Devs have final say, and this is normal set nerf
Because you could just slot normal 5 pc and get benefits, no rares
So this change and with raid filigree,
Move it into the realm of other sets performing better
So there's your balance
Now you have to chase rares, but it's a better deal

I'm just tired of them initially offering something op,
Then nerfing it into oblivion
I have seen that happen too much lately
And it says more about a business model
Than it does about achieving balance
So that's why I play the recent updates
You always get op material
Then a year later it's worthless
I don't think balance will ever be achieved
Just a rollercoaster based on sales

[Burakii]

That's 4 for 4 Batting 1000 here and dam right I'll say I told you so lets see how may more I'm right on!

1.EDF
3. Monk nerf
2. EK pass
3. prowess nerf


Addressing continued rumors?

1. Rumor Melee
Prowess and Legendary Dreadnought: the discussion is to bring prowess to 30-50 melee power and rein in blitz and dreadnought to match other Epic Destinies, there are concerns about backlash and timing.

Melee DPS: is now consider over-powered look for it to be dialed back moving forward with an eye on survivability as it still remains a concern.

2. Rumor Ranged
Shuriken: bringing it closer to other ranged builds before increasing all ranged dps, consensus raged dps is way behind melee other than shuriken.

3. Rumor Casters
DC Casting: bringing it closer to other caster builds before caster pass, again concerns about backlash.

4. Rumor Level Cap
The real possibility of increasing level cap next year to coincide with Sharn and the lowering of currant raids items.

Whether or not any of this is true who can say?

[count_spicoli]

The last Prowess-related "fix" nerfed my Kensai Power Surge. I'd rather they just deleted this Prowess feature entirely and changed Power Surge back to how it used to be.

This. The power surge change still has me chapped

[Khalibano]

I vote yes, because it is too strong compared to other filigrees. Which means most melees will choose it. That makes the other options mostly redundant, or mere gap fillers. More competitive choice seems more fun and should allow more variety, catering more specifically to other abilities.

I personally dont see it as a nerf: its more like an adjustment that was made after it was tried and tested for a while. This is a very complex game: build possibilities and synergies are vast. I cant inagine a company that would afford having a new technology tested for , lets say, a year in a paralel server and fully adjusted before it is realeased, never to be tweaked again. Even if they could, as soon as something new is released, it could cause another type of synergy and require further adjusting.

Our live server is a test server. Adjustments are innevitable, and a normal part of a game that is growing and changing continually. None of my melees will become gimps after this, this is not game-breaking

Thanks for considering my viewpoint.

Thanks SSG for making this game great. Huge fan of DDO since 2006, but definitely more so with all the recent improvements!

[Zretch]

I vote yes, because it is too strong compared to other filigrees. Which means most melees will choose it. That makes the other options mostly redundant, or mere gap fillers. More competitive choice seems more fun and should allow more variety, catering more specifically to other abilities.

I personally dont see it as a nerf: its more like an adjustment that was made after it was tried and tested for a while. This is a very complex game: build possibilities and synergies are vast. I cant inagine a company that would afford having a new technology tested for , lets say, a year in a paralel server and fully adjusted before it is realeased, never to be tweaked again. Even if they could, as soon as something new is released, it could cause another type of synergy and require further adjusting.

Our live server is a test server. Adjustments are innevitable, and a normal part of a game that is growing and changing continually. None of my melees will become gimps after this, this is not game-breaking

Thanks for considering my viewpoint.

Thanks SSG for making this game great. Huge fan of DDO since 2006, but definitely more so with all the recent improvements!

This makes me a sad panda.

Originally prowess was giving 100 Melee Power, which means it was coded/configured that way originally. Later on, it was tuned to 75, and the description was changed, but the coding/configuration wasn't changed. At the time, there were zero sources of melee power anywhere close to that amount. Entire enhancement trees didn't give 75 melee power, let alone 100. I just don't understand how things like this keep getting created, passing internal testing, released, and then changed months and sometimes years later.

it would seem really important, as a designer for this game, to keep your eye on the ball when it comes to things that have multiplicative effects. Weapon die is a multiplier, so giving some raid items "keen/impact" and giving them a 2 weapon die advantage over other raid weapons is a pretty big deal. Adding stacking weapon die adders in the Reinforced Fists line on equipment also is a pretty big deal. Paying attention to those things may have allowed monks to retain a class feature that's been in D&D since the beginning.

Melee power is a multipler. If you push very high weapon die and then combine it with burst melee power, you get extremely high burst damage. if the thing that triggers that burst is an action boost that also increases your attack speed with is another multiplier, then it's even more impactful. Add in doublestrike giving you more attacks per "swing". Add in vulnerability stacking and all of the helpless damage sources they've been adding through falconry, set bonuses, combat brute, etc...and you get an amplification chamber of effects that lead to some extreme DPS.

So sure, talk about adding something to that game that increased a stat which is a damage multiplier that is impacted by multiple other multipliers in an amount that was greater than any other single source of that stat in the game by a factor of X like it was just no big deal and needed to be play tested on live before you could really figure out whether or not it was overpowered. A 75% boost to base damage that can be triggered by a 30% boost to attack speed in an epic destiny that allows that boost to recycle 33% faster and gives the equivalent of deadly weapons plus a 50% base damage bonus to helpless opponents for the entire duration of the boost...never should have been added to the game unless melee really needed the help.

[Thrudh]

A 75% boost to base damage that can be triggered by a 30% boost to attack speed in an epic destiny that allows that boost to recycle 33% faster and gives the equivalent of deadly weapons plus a 50% base damage bonus to helpless opponents for the entire duration of the boost...never should have been added to the game unless melee really needed the help.

Great post.

The devs really need to balance out the Epic Destinies. They should boost other destinies, and/or they should probably change Prowess even further.

Melee Prowess has too much synergy with LD. 5-set Prowess probably should NOT trigger on Action Boosts. Because Action Boosts are ALREADY very strong in LD.

[Zretch]

How the hell doesn't melee need any help in reaper when they have to sit next to the champions to deal any damage or are you only playing on casual ? what the heck are you talking about ? They already deal reduced damage in reaper so why should they get nerfed down even further ? Do you want them to do 0 dmg before you are finally happy ? Whats wrong with you people ?Just shut up and play the **** game you idiots.

Seriously? Melee ARE the DPS in reaper. Why the hell do I care if I stand next to a champ if that champ is stunned, held, and terrored? Do you have any concept of the difference between two melee characters, one of which optimizes each of the major multipliers and the other of which focuses on maximizing just a couple?

My post wasn't about further nerfing of melee. My post was about this cycle of putting out changes that signal a "new normal" (Ravenloft gear, Monk revamp, Warlocks, etc) and then having "remorse" months or years later and executing not just one, but multiple nerfs as a result while at times nerfing things that have major impacts one things that aren't even the direct subject of the nerfs.

They might as well have put out a 5 piece filagree bonus that gave +300 doubleshot for 2 seconds after Manyshot was activated, thinking that the short duration would balance everything, and then 18 months later realize just how badly furyshotters have been abusing such a broken bonus.

[Chai]

Same folks are championing yet another nerf to action boost.

In other news, water is wet, and the sky is blue.

Film at 11.

[Slazinger1]

*sigh* Every update I lose more DPS...oh well...

[Zites]

Hello DDO players,

The most recent update brings with it a change to the Filigree set, Prowess:



This is a nerf from the previous value, +75 Melee Power. Note that this filigree set also originally provided +100 Melee Power, although that was not intended by the developers.


Poll Question: Do you support the change to Prowess?

Not only do I not support the change to Prowess my future spending will reflect my nonsupport.

[PsychoBlonde]

Prowess is exceptionally strong compared to everything else and this is why everyone uses it, understandably. The problem isn't so much the amount damage it gives so much as the synergy it has with Dreadnought and it's nearly unlimited action boosts and 50% prowess uptime.

Basically this nerf hurts the other destinies because LD is really strong. Destinies that are already unused (Fury/GMoF/SD/Shiradi) because they were so grossly inferior to begin with. So in the end I don't mind a small prowess nerf but they really need to make the other melee destinies better. For instance overwhelming critical and headman's chop should have been in Fury right from the get go, Shadowdancer should have a useful instakill attack (not a low % based chance), GMoF ki attacks need their damage multiplied by 300% melee/ranged power, and Shiradi needs a melee power boost plus a nice attack clickie - or at least let the shiradi procs use spellpower with weapons.

Was with you up until you started talking about MELEE power for Shiradi, which only procs on RANGED weapons and SPELLS, so the destiny is useless for MELEE. So what, exactly, is MELEE power going to accomplish in this destiny except be silly?

Ranged power, now . . .

But, yeah, Legendary Dreadnought being the be-all, end-all of melee epic destinies (best offense, best defense, best utility, it has NO competition WHATSOEVER) kinda makes other game balance issues a lot worse. It's basically the SOLE reason I STILL don't like playing melee these days when the vast majority of issues afflicting melee classes have been cleaned up--because it's blitz or nothing, and I HATE blitzing.

[PsychoBlonde]

Not only do I not support the change to Prowess my future spending will reflect my nonsupport.

As opposed to, I don't know, trying something different with your character instead of investing your entire ego in the latest Flavor of the Month?

[FuryFlash]

But, yeah, Legendary Dreadnought being the be-all, end-all of melee epic destinies (best offense, best defense, best utility, it has NO competition WHATSOEVER) kinda makes other game balance issues a lot worse. It's basically the SOLE reason I STILL don't like playing melee these days when the vast majority of issues afflicting melee classes have been cleaned up--because it's blitz or nothing, and I HATE blitzing.

I would just like to point out that having the absolute best thing in every category isn't needed to contribute at any level of difficulty. You could still perform very well as a melee without ever touching Legendary Dreadnought (or just skipping the blitz portion). The same applies for prowess; as others have mentioned in this thread, it will likely stay the absolute strongest option, but that doesn't mean you can't play a melee without it. Other filigree mixes can provide a better passive DPS boost that doesn't depend on action boosts, for example.

If you want to play a melee but don't like blitz, just give it a shot. You'll likely see what I mean - personally, I only run dreadnought in raid scenarios where I know I'll be beating down a boss for several minutes and will be guaranteed to keep up blitz. Otherwise, I run Shadowdancer.

[wolffboy]

never had it so Donuts

[Zretch]

I would just like to point out that having the absolute best thing in every category isn't needed to contribute at any level of difficulty. You could still perform very well as a melee without ever touching Legendary Dreadnought (or just skipping the blitz portion). The same applies for prowess; as others have mentioned in this thread, it will likely stay the absolute strongest option, but that doesn't mean you can't play a melee without it. Other filigree mixes can provide a better passive DPS boost that doesn't depend on action boosts, for example.

If you want to play a melee but don't like blitz, just give it a shot. You'll likely see what I mean - personally, I only run dreadnought in raid scenarios where I know I'll be beating down a boss for several minutes and will be guaranteed to keep up blitz. Otherwise, I run Shadowdancer.

If you have monk levels, are using handwraps, and have at least Master of Forms, GMoF isn't a bad alternative to LD. Fire stance feels pretty good in GMoF (+1W added to the additional supercrit multiplier), the cores give 60 melee power (equivalent to running a 6 stack blitz permanently), slippery surfaces immunity, knockdown immunity, slippery mind, and "tumble through enemies". There's a lot of good QoL for general questing. You can also snag ghost touch and true seeing if you need them, as well as +6 to one or more saves with no fail on a 1, depending on how many points you want to spend on other things. There's also a nice AoE knockdown on a 15 second timer.

I'll second the fact that Shadowdancer makes for a very nice leveling tree as well. If you're not running a "form" (druid shape, warlock pact, undead form, etc), 25% incorporeal that can be triggered after your first kill and lasts the rest of the quest is very nice, as is grim precision, meld into darkness, sealed soul, and 5 charges of dimension door. Again, lots of good QoL and that same 60 melee power that gives you a full time 6 stack of blitz that survives shrining, dialogs, cutscenes, exiting the quest, casters insta-killing your targets, etc with no cooldown.

Yes, for raids, flip to LD. Otherwise, I tend to twist in haste boost (if my class doesn't have it) and either improved combat mastery or advanced tactics and run GMoF or SD.

[Yamani]

Re: u41 Release notes goes live 12-5-18 Proposed U41 Melee Non-Prowess Optimal Set

1. Spines of the Manticore/The Wreath of Flame, raid filigree: +6 Melee Power (Rare: +4 Melee Power)

Is actually ranged power on live, it was never intended to be melee and I do believe was a error in the lama notes.