Raid Saga

[Mellkor]

The introduction of the upcoming raid currency in Llamma got me thinking about the current end game raid scheme.

I already run raids often (10 per week or so). I do not see how the new changes to raids on Llama will provide an incentive (for me) to run or lead additional raids with new/inexperienced people outside of the usual 3 or 4 raids we constantly run now within guild or raid channel. (usually always the newer 3 or 4 raids). This system will not change the raiding scene at endgame for me and likely not for anyone else, IMO. With the changes as outlined on Llama, I will still stick to running a select few raids and will stop running them when everyone in our group gets what they want. (until the next raid with new shinnies comes along )

Lets face it, once a player gets what he/she wants from a raid, they usually stop running that raid.

If the goal is to have an incentive to run dead raids, grind raids in general, encourage more players to participate in raids, and make raids more inclusive, then have some kind of bonus for running and completing all the raids:

Raid Saga: a reward system for completing all (or most) of the raids (similar to existing saga rewards) that includes:

Just some random Raid Saga reward ideas: (keep in mind you only get these after completing 11? Raids, something that will likely take a week or more...)

1) Bonuses similar to ship bonuses (something like a guild buffs bonus multiplier that increases with Raid Saga completions on normal, hard, elite, R1, etc) that lasts for say, 1 month, (Additional Raid Saga completions stack the time). Or can be perpetual as long as X amount of raids are completed within X amount of time by X amount of guild members.

2) Similar and larger rewards than existing saga style rewards for completing a Raid Saga.

3) Repeating the Raid Saga 3 or 4? times would give the ability to get any item from any raid (for any character you have?).

4) Short term (3 days or so) guild-wide bonuses that apply to the entire guild if all or most of the people who run the raid are in the same guild, same bonus also applies to individual non guild participants, but only to that individual.

5) use the proposed raid currency for adding mythic bonuses to ANY raid item or weapon (not just the white plume stuff as it is now on Llama).

6) Some kind of Reaper Currency (reaper mysterious remnants?) That only drop when killing reapers in reaper level raids which can be used for applying reaper bonuses to raid items and weapons and/or make them a Raid Saga reward item.

7) Have large reaper XP stones as a reaper Raid Saga reward.

8) Sentient XP stones.

9) (as suggested by Chilldude): A way of earning the past life bonuses other players received through repetitively grinding easy content by staying at cap and running raids instead.

Something like this would likely make the current raiding scene FAR more popular, it would give incentives for experienced people to participate in content they normally do not participate in anymore, with people they normally do not raid with, AND give good reasons to grind raids beyond getting the item you want. Which will translate to more people playing the game, more players participating in Raids, and playing the game longer.


-JR

Please post additional ideas with the goal of making all the raids (new and old) desirable for all to play.

I will edit and add to this OP as ideas get posted or come to mind.

[simo0208]

The introduction of the upcoming raid currency in Llamma got me thinking about the current end game raid scheme.

I already run raids often (10 per week or so). I do not see how the new changes to raids on Llama will provide an incentive (for me) to run or lead additional raids with new/inexperienced people outside of the usual 3 or 4 raids we constantly run now within guild or raid channel. (usually always the newer 3 or 4 raids). This system will not change the raiding scene at endgame for me and likely not for anyone else, IMO. With the changes as outlined on Llama, I will still stick to running a select few raids and will stop running them when everyone in our group gets what they want. (until the next raid with new shinnies comes along )

Lets face it, once a player gets what he/she wants from a raid, they usually stop running that raid.

If the goal is to have an incentive to run dead raids, grind raids in general, encourage more players to participate in raids, and make raids more inclusive, then have some kind of bonus for running and completing all the raids:

Raid Saga: a reward system for completing all (or most) of the raids (similar to existing saga rewards) that includes:

Just some random Raid Saga reward ideas: (keep in mind you only get these after completing 11? Raids, something that will likely take a week or more...)

1) Bonuses similar to ship bonuses (something like a guild buffs bonus multiplier that increases with Raid Saga completions on normal, hard, elite, R1, etc) that lasts for say, 1 month, (Additional Raid Saga completions stack the time). Or can be perpetual as long as X amount of raids are completed within X amount of time by X amount of guild members.

2) Similar and larger rewards than existing saga style rewards for completing a Raid Saga.

3) Repeating the Raid Saga 3 or 4? times would give the ability to get any item from any raid (for any character you have?).

4) Short term (3 days or so) guild-wide bonuses that apply to the entire guild if all or most of the people who run the raid are in the same guild, same bonus also applies to individual non guild participants, but only to that individual.

5) use the proposed raid currency for adding mythic bonuses to ANY raid item or weapon (not just the white plume stuff as it is now on Llama).

6) Some kind of Reaper Currency (reaper mysterious remnants?) That only drop when killing reapers in reaper level raids which can be used for applying reaper bonuses to raid items and weapons and/or make them a Raid Saga reward item.

Something like this would likely make the current raiding scene FAR more popular, it would give incentives for experienced people to participate in content they normally do not participate in anymore, with people they normally do not raid with, AND give good reasons to grind raids beyond getting the item you want. Which will translate to more people playing the game, more players participating in Raids, and playing the game longer.


-JR

Please post additional ideas with the goal of making all the raids (new and old) desirable for all to play.

/signed

A raid saga, both heroic and epic would be fantastic.

[Maldorin]

/signed

A raid saga, both heroic and epic would be fantastic.

It would be great for the game and would be very easy to do.

I love the idea.

Therefore it will almost certainly never happen.

[TitusOvid]

/signed with idea #2 as a start.

Balanced reward tiers could present a problem. Not every raid can be run on elite+ difficulty just like that, especially when you pug. So the lowest tier should still be higher than a elite quest saga tier, imo.
It it a very good idea and my mind will play with it a while.
Thanks.

[Mellkor]

Added reaper XP stones as a reaper raid saga completion reward as well as sentient XP stones to the OP.

I will edit the OP as ideas get posted or come to mind.

[aGarde]

the old raids have the token of the 12 they drop, and you only get those in the raids.. I don't see why they couldn't just expand on that a bit and make those actually worth something more than they are now.

[Kriogen]

/signed

Good idea. Which points? All of them!

To bad it will never be implemented

[Chilldude]

Please post additional ideas with the goal of making all the raids (new and old) desirable for all to play.

I suggest that because reaper affords players a customizable level of challenge, EE saves and DCs could be scaled back to a reasonable level attainable with a first life character employing a solid build and decent gear and I'm a heretic begging for nerfs.

You suggest more power creep, that would especially benefit players in Timelord channels, and everyone cheers?

Isn't asking for more power creep the same as asking for the ENTIRE game to be nerfed?

OP clearly states they are not interested in running raids with anyone except a select group of people that have proven themselves worthy. I don't think I'm being overly presumptuous in assuming it's because they want the efficient guaranteed victories a raid filled with max power players provides. They don't want challenge, they don't want risk, they don't want uncertainty, they want a new level of power they can efficiently grind for that other players will be unable to attain.

I suggested this very idea years ago. I even called it a raid saga. Except instead of more power creep, that further widens the gap, I suggested a reward that accomplished the opposite, a reward that narrowed the gap. A way of earning the past life bonuses other players received through repetitively grinding easy content by staying at cap and running raids instead.

I'm against any new power creep, but I'm especially against more power creep that is really only attainable by a very small contingent of already creepy powerful players.

[Enoach]

I'm all for more saga's being added to the game. However, I don't think a Raid Saga is the right thing for the game at this time.

Here is why:

1. I feel saga's should chain together a story
2. I feel saga's should not be exclusive to parts of the player base - Not all members of the community raid, some because of their choice and some because of its availability
3. I think the rewards you are proposing (3 to 4 completions giving a list to choose from - short circuits the 20 completion of many raids and the 5/10 completions of the Cannieth raids)

----
My suggestion on making raids more desirable to run...

Have more Guild's implement Guild Raid activities for teaching and just for running for fun. If they don't have enough participation in guild, open it up to the general public. I've been doing this for a couple years and it is a very popular guild activity and I even get people outside the guild asking about our weekly activity which I post on our calendar on our guild web site.

[Kriogen]

I'm all for more saga's being added to the game. However, I don't think a Raid Saga is the right thing for the game at this time.

Here is why:

1. I feel saga's should chain together a story
2. I feel saga's should not be exclusive to parts of the player base - Not all members of the community raid, some because of their choice and some because of its availability
3. I think the rewards you are proposing (3 to 4 completions giving a list to choose from - short circuits the 20 completion of many raids and the 5/10 completions of the Cannieth raids)

1. What if its named "Weekly Raid chalange"?
2. Is not really a "saga"
3. 20th or 5/10 is not such a good idea anyway

[Mellkor]

I'm all for more saga's being added to the game. However, I don't think a Raid Saga is the right thing for the game at this time.

Here is why:

1. I feel saga's should chain together a story
2. I feel saga's should not be exclusive to parts of the player base - Not all members of the community raid, some because of their choice and some because of its availability
3. I think the rewards you are proposing (3 to 4 completions giving a list to choose from - short circuits the 20 completion of many raids and the 5/10 completions of the Cannieth raids)

----
My suggestion on making raids more desirable to run...

Have more Guild's implement Guild Raid activities for teaching and just for running for fun. If they don't have enough participation in guild, open it up to the general public. I've been doing this for a couple years and it is a very popular guild activity and I even get people outside the guild asking about our weekly activity which I post on our calendar on our guild web site.

1: Then call it whatever. I used "Raid Saga" only because sagas already exists and should (at least in my mind) be easy to apply some or all of the existing coding or technology. Of course I say this as a non techie. I don't really care what they call it, actually. The principle is what is important to me, which is get people to run more of the old raids and be more inclusive for all.

2. I do not see how this would be exclusive. It will make raiding much more popular, and hence, more inclusive. IMO.

3. I don't see it that way considering you are running a lot more than 20 raids total to get one particular thing from one particular raid. (remeber these are SAGA rewards which become available only after competing ALL 11? or so raids.) So this is something you would get after completing 33 or 44 raids total. I think that is fair.


The teaching thing you are doing is great and I applaud your efforts, but, I think something like a raid saga would be more compelling to more people.

Thanks for your input.

-JR

[Mellkor]

I suggest that because reaper affords players a customizable level of challenge, EE saves and DCs could be scaled back to a reasonable level attainable with a first life character employing a solid build and decent gear and I'm a heretic begging for nerfs.

You suggest more power creep, that would especially benefit players in Timelord channels, and everyone cheers?

Isn't asking for more power creep the same as asking for the ENTIRE game to be nerfed?

OP clearly states they are not interested in running raids with anyone except a select group of people that have proven themselves worthy. I don't think I'm being overly presumptuous in assuming it's because they want the efficient guaranteed victories a raid filled with max power players provides. They don't want challenge, they don't want risk, they don't want uncertainty, they want a new level of power they can efficiently grind for that other players will be unable to attain.

I suggested this very idea years ago. I even called it a raid saga. Except instead of more power creep, that further widens the gap, I suggested a reward that accomplished the opposite, a reward that narrowed the gap. A way of earning the past life bonuses other players received through repetitively grinding easy content by staying at cap and running raids instead.

I'm against any new power creep, but I'm especially against more power creep that is really only attainable by a very small contingent of already creepy powerful players.

Firstly "power creep" as you call it is unavoidable, and nothing wrong with people who strive to be the best players with the best gear.

Secondly, The reason we stick to raid/channel groups is because PUG raid groups are often difficult to form and run. IE: on those rare occasions I do actually create a PUG raid group, it almost never fills or takes a LONG TIME to fill. AND takes more time to explain everything to new/inexperience players. AND the odds of failing are much higher. No one likes to spend hours on a raid, only to fail it. IF raiding was a more popular end game activity, then these problems would go away, and PUG raids would be much easier to do.
1: because more people would be raiding,
and 2: more experienced raid players would become available to carry the inexperienced/new players.

Right now there is little desire to run raids, especially the old raids, by the majority of the player base (it seems). Just because the few people who do want to run raids band together and do it successfully doesn't make them the elitist jerks as you seem to presume. You know what they say about making an assumption....

You accuse me of not wanting challenge, that is simply not the case, our group is continuously challenging ourselves by working as a group and doing raids at higher and higher difficulties which requires filling the raid with (at least some) players with very specific roles and/or very specific and specialized builds (that often do not work well anywhere else) to successfully complete those raids at the higher difficulties. Specialized roles or builds are hard to find in a PUG environment. Therefore it is difficult to do that with a PUG raid and easy to do with a static group. I am sure this sentiment is not unique to our group. That said, when we do have to fill in our group with puggers, we often lower difficulties to make it inclusive for them and/or successful for us.

Something like this would make raiding far more popular than it is now, and far more inclusive, IMO.

I agree with your first sentence in principle, but I am not sure it is an actual issue. I have seen (and have) many well geared first life characters with solid builds that perform well in elite and low reaper content. (and breeze though normal or hard content).

Making past lives or some kind of past life XP stones as a raid saga reward is an interesting idea. (added to the OP)

[guzzlr]

Saga reward that allows for the choice between a variety of raid reward types. The ability to choose Greater Tokens, Commendations of Heroism, The new Souls (or whatever name they decided on), and a variety of cosmetics would be pretty nice.

[lyrecono]

The introduction of the upcoming raid currency in Llamma got me thinking about the current end game raid scheme.

I already run raids often (10 per week or so). I do not see how the new changes to raids on Llama will provide an incentive (for me) to run or lead additional raids with new/inexperienced people outside of the usual 3 or 4 raids we constantly run now within guild or raid channel. (usually always the newer 3 or 4 raids). This system will not change the raiding scene at endgame for me and likely not for anyone else, IMO. With the changes as outlined on Llama, I will still stick to running a select few raids and will stop running them when everyone in our group gets what they want. (until the next raid with new shinnies comes along )

Lets face it, once a player gets what he/she wants from a raid, they usually stop running that raid.

If the goal is to have an incentive to run dead raids, grind raids in general, encourage more players to participate in raids, and make raids more inclusive, then have some kind of bonus for running and completing all the raids:

Raid Saga: a reward system for completing all (or most) of the raids (similar to existing saga rewards) that includes:

Just some random Raid Saga reward ideas: (keep in mind you only get these after completing 11? Raids, something that will likely take a week or more...)

1) Bonuses similar to ship bonuses (something like a guild buffs bonus multiplier that increases with Raid Saga completions on normal, hard, elite, R1, etc) that lasts for say, 1 month, (Additional Raid Saga completions stack the time). Or can be perpetual as long as X amount of raids are completed within X amount of time by X amount of guild members.
some ship cosmetics like the heads of raid-bosses to mount onto the airship? sure, as for more power creep? no thanks

2) Similar and larger rewards than existing saga style rewards for completing a Raid Saga. like exp, skill tomes and guild renown? maybe....

3) Repeating the Raid Saga 3 or 4? times would give the ability to get any item from any raid (for any character you have?). raid tokens do that, you get those from the raids themselves.

4) Short term (3 days or so) guild-wide bonuses that apply to the entire guild if all or most of the people who run the raid are in the same guild, same bonus also applies to individual non guild participants, but only to that individual. no to more powercreep

5) use the proposed raid currency for adding mythic bonuses to ANY raid item or weapon (not just the white plume stuff as it is now on Llama). the reason those bonuses are in there is because it's a crafted weapon, if you're lucky, you can get raid items to drop from reaper runs. also, no to power creep.

6) Some kind of Reaper Currency (reaper mysterious remnants?) That only drop when killing reapers in reaper level raids which can be used for applying reaper bonuses to raid items and weapons and/or make them a Raid Saga reward item. only for cosmetics.....no more powercreep, reaper mode was intended as a challange, not a powercreep to be eased by store purchases.

7) Have large reaper XP stones as a reaper Raid Saga reward.

8) Sentient XP stones.

9) (as suggested by Chilldude): A way of earning the past life bonuses other players received through repetitively grinding easy content by staying at cap and running raids instead.

Something like this would likely make the current raiding scene FAR more popular, it would give incentives for experienced people to participate in content they normally do not participate in anymore, with people they normally do not raid with, AND give good reasons to grind raids beyond getting the item you want. Which will translate to more people playing the game, more players participating in Raids, and playing the game longer.


-JR

Please post additional ideas with the goal of making all the raids (new and old) desirable for all to play.

I will edit and add to this OP as ideas get posted or come to mind.

having an item to keep you flagged during tr's would help too, maybe a bag to keep m in?

[Aelonwy]

2: more experienced raid players would become available to carry the inexperienced/new players.

I rarely see this on Thelanis. What I mostly see is the top raiding guilds/static raiding groups getting what they want from whatever is the newest raid and then that's it they're done. Very few do PUGs, let alone teaching PUGs. There used to be a guy that ran a teaching raid every Saturday, every Saturday a different raid... but I haven't seen those in years.

I don't know if I blame the more prevalent anti-social attitude that's increased in the last few years or the maximizing efficiency attitude. I usually think of things bought in the store as conveniences but some can be highly detrimental to PUGs. No one wants to waste a Legendary Raid Timer on a group that may not succeed. No one wants to waste precious time on an XP elixir for the same reason.

[cdbd3rd]

/Signed.

Even as a non-raider myself, this doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[guzzlr]

No one wants to waste precious time on an XP elixir for the same reason.

There are too many things in game right now that push people to keep moving faster and faster; exp pots are one of those for sure. I would very much prefer some sort of "X" completion bonuses per potion. Not going to happen, I know, and I know others like the timed duration. But, hey... there ya go.

[TitusOvid]

Filigries as reward like tomes. Depending on your tier reward it is common, uncommon or rare ...

[Maldorin]

Filigries as reward like tomes. Depending on your tier reward it is common, uncommon or rare ...

Or.....

Sentient xp gem. and

20 saga reward list:

Spark of memory.

Now we're talkin'

[Selvera]

If reincarnating XP is in the picture; I would suggest the following rewards for completing a raid saga of all of the raids in the game.
If new raids are added; they would be added to this saga as also required.

Raidsaga rewards (reward for running every raid in the game)
2mil heroic XP stone and 15 tokens of the 12 – BTA
6mil epic XP stone and 30 heart seeds – BTA (Only available in hard+ saga completions)
10k sentient XP stone and a sentient gem – BTA (Only available in elite+ saga completions)
25k reaper XP stone – BTA (Only available in True Elite saga completions)

Furthermore; I'd have this raid saga have a 1 week timer; to reduce the amount of "ok we got a good guild/group who can run all 28 raids in a day, let's just eat timers and plug out a life per day now". Instead getting these rewards should require either gating by either time, or by TR'ing a character and flagging them for all 28 raids (probably more work making sure they're flagged for everything then it would be to just TR them again).

This would push people to run the less-run raids to complete the saga, as well as to own all content (note that this includes owning 2 of the 3 expansions so VIP alone doesn't cover it).

Also note that the XP stones for heroic/epic XP aren't quite enough to cap alone; so of course it's there to sell XP pots and TR bypass timers as well.