Still playing with a fighter build

[ElrondElfKing]

What do you think of this build? I'm going for as much survivability as possible (as tanky as possible), while still maintaining some dps.

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Fighter) (sword and shield)

Starting
Abilities Base Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1)
Strength 18
Dexterity 15
Constitution 16
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 8
Charisma 8

Tomes Used: universal +7
All level-ups to to STR

Feat Summary
L1 Power Attack, Stunning Blow, Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
L2 Heavy Armor Training
L3 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
L4 Shield Mastery
L5 n/a
L6 Weapon Specialization: Slashing, Heavy Armor Combatant
L7 n/a
L8 Improved Critical: Slashing
L9 Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
L10 Heavy Armor Master
L11 n/a
L12 Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing, Improved Shield Mastery
L13 n/a
L14 Improved Shield Mastery
L15 Power Critical
L16 Heavy Armor Champion
L17 n/a
L18 Superior Weapon Focus, Dodge
L19 n/a
L20 Mobility

Question: Does the PRR with Heavy Armor Training stack with the PRR with Shield Mastery?

[Ballrus]

Hi.

Bastard swd? thf feats (glancing blows on bswds).

Heavy armor? No dodge/mobility.

Tactical feats.

Question: Does the PRR with Heavy Armor Training stack with the PRR with Shield Mastery? Yes.

[Coffey]

Its good that you are taking your time and looking at options.

Level 20 Heroic TR?

You want damage, survivability and tactics but you dont want to be the "Aggro Tank". Running R1-R2s in groups?

I too would drop dodge, mobility and heavy armor training (3 prr mrr minor amount). Change to Exotic: Khopesh instead of Bastard Sword unless you have some Godly Bastard Swords put aside.
Essentially a single target melee like 2WF except your shield is your second weapon (Improved Shield Bash with VG cores should get you to 50% secondary shield bash proc). This saves 5 feats and takes aggro off of you somewhat. The five feats being 2HFx3 and 2 cleaves. Precision is better than Power attack for anything other than 2HF IMO.

L1 Precision, Stunning Blow, Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
L2 Improved Shield Bash
L3 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
L4 Shield Mastery
L6 Weapon Specialization: Slashing, Heavy Armor Combatant
L8 Improved Critical: Slashing
L9 Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
L10 Heavy Armor Master
L12 Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing, Tactical Mastery
L14 Improved Shield Mastery
L15 Heavy Armor Champion
L16 Tactical Supremacy
L18 Superior Weapon Focus, Power Critical
L20 Dodge (doesnt really matter what you put here)

With a shield you gain more AC, DR, and double your PRR MRR against magic attacks which have reflex save.

Self healing no longer an issue to you? Potion of Cure Serious Wounds and Cure Serious Wounds Scrolls which require 28 UMD. And dont forget your trusty hirelings

[ElrondElfKing]

Hi, thanks for the answers. Why drop dodge and mobility with heavy armor?

[C-Dog]

B/c Mobility adds to Dodge Total, and that total is ~severely~ capped by Heavy Armor. So, ~either~ reduce damage via the PRR of Heavy (which is mre than just +3, it's based off a multiple of BAB), OR reduce damage via Dodge, not getting hit in the first place.

The real thing Power Attack does is open the Cleave/Great Cleave line. It's true that 2-Hand weapons are better w all those (x2 damage), but they're still nice even when using 1-handed weapons - just not ~as~ nice.

[Coffey]

A Fighter has a 1xBAB (Base Attack Bonus) per level and with heavy armor you get PRR equal to 2x BAB. So at level 20 you will have 40 extra PRR (Physical Resistance Rating).

So any items you can get with Sheltering and Insightful Sheltering (they stack) will increase both PRR and MRR totals without a cap on both heavy and medium armor.

So removing the single feat Heavy Armor Training from your list is only a minuscule amount of damage mitigation as shown in the links for PRR and MRR, although every bit does count, other feats are more necessary to make your build effective overall.

Power attack will give you +5 damage for single handed weapons and +10 damage for 2H weapons at a cost of -5 to hit. Precision you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25% which goes well with the kensai tree.

[ElrondElfKing]

B/c Mobility adds to Dodge Total, and that total is ~severely~ capped by Heavy Armor. So, ~either~ reduce damage via the PRR of Heavy (which is mre than just +3, it's based off a multiple of BAB), OR reduce damage via Dodge, not getting hit in the first place.

The real thing Power Attack does is open the Cleave/Great Cleave line. It's true that 2-Hand weapons are better w all those (x2 damage), but they're still nice even when using 1-handed weapons - just not ~as~ nice.

Sorry, still not understanding. Dodge & Mobility Grant 5% Dodge. The armor cap is 25%. Plus, Mobility adds to the Dex bonus to armor. So I'm still not understanding why Dodge & Mobility are not a good idea for Fighters.

[btolson]

Any armor you wear has its -own- dodge cap, expressed as Max Dexterity Bonus. For regular half-plate, for example, the Dodge cap is 1.

Beyond that, Heavy Armor Champion has no pre-reqs except fighter level 14. The earlier Heavy Armor feats do not stack with it, and are totally wasted feats by that point.

[cru121]

Your chance to dodge attacks is restricted in three ways:

* Dodge cannot exceed your armor's Maximum dexterity bonus
* Dodge cannot exceed Max Dodge cap. This starts at 25%
* Dodge cannot exceed your Tower Shield's Maximum dexterity bonus

The lower limit of the three applies.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Dodge_bonus..._maximum_dodge

[count_spicoli]

Any armor you wear has its -own- dodge cap, expressed as Max Dexterity Bonus. For regular half-plate, for example, the Dodge cap is 1.

Beyond that, Heavy Armor Champion has no pre-reqs except fighter level 14. The earlier Heavy Armor feats do not stack with it, and are totally wasted feats by that point.

You sure they dont stack. I thought they did

[Ballrus]

Any armor you wear has its -own- dodge cap, expressed as Max Dexterity Bonus. For regular half-plate, for example, the Dodge cap is 1.

Beyond that, Heavy Armor Champion has no pre-reqs except fighter level 14. The earlier Heavy Armor feats do not stack with it, and are totally wasted feats by that point.

All heavy armor feats stack (30 prr/mrr), the same for tactical feats (+20 dc).

[btolson]

All heavy armor feats stack (30 prr/mrr), the same for tactical feats (+20 dc).

TIL, thanks

[C-Dog]

Sorry, still not understanding...why Dodge & Mobility are not a good idea for Fighters.

No one said that - we're saying they're not a good idea for anyone who wants to wear Heavy Armor*, and that Heavy Armor is simply not compatible w/ Evasion. (Easy enough to design a Fighter (esp a multi) who uses only Light armor and has Evasion, if you want.)

B/c what Btolson said, above, etc. (See https://ddowiki.com/page/Dodge_bonus...hance_mechanic - spec "The dodge chance is capped by the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of the armor worn ...")

Then see these pages, look at "Max Dex Bonus" column:

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Minimum_Lev...l_Plate_Armors
o https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Heavy_armor

(* There are some exceptions - https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Quenched_Platemail_Armor, https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Scales_of_Avarice - but as a rule, no.)

[Coffey]

So with heavy armor the feats for dodge are unnecessary and it is easy to cover dodge with an item.

[C-Dog]

Basically, yes.

The Total Dodge that is applicable is low (cap varies depending which Heavy Armor you're wearing), so past that low cap any additional +Dodge feats are a waste. Also, rather than chase +2-3% more Dodge, it might be better to pursue a diff type of damage mitigation.

So while you might, in fact, be able to make use of the Dodge feat for that initial +3 Dodge (if the cap is 3+), a 1 in 33 chance of evading damage might be less useful than more PRR (or whatever).

And, yes, an item might cover 100% of the total possible Dodge Cap, done.

[ElrondElfKing]

Thank you all for your insight.

It's unfortunate that Power Attack is a prereq for Cleave, as it is a wasted feat for me. I'm running in Combat Expertise stance.

I'm trying to get a nice balance between defense and offense. I've always concentrated more on dps, but I'm getting tired of getting killed so much , so as an experiment, I'm now going the opposite way, mostly defense , with enough dps to get me through the quest. If it takes me a little longer to get through the dungeon, that's fine. I'm really tired of getting killed off.

[C-Dog]

OP is probably already on this, but @ newer players - 6 enhancement points + Fighter 3 gets you to Stalwart Defender Core 3, Stalwart Defender, which (combined w/ Tier 1 Durable Defense) = +25 PRR/MRR, which is a nice boost to survivability.

+6 Fortification + 2 HP + (probably) +1 AC/+1 Armor Max Dex Bonus to get there.

[Ballrus]

OP is probably already on this, but @ newer players - 6 enhancement points + Fighter 3 gets you to Stalwart Defender Core 3, Stalwart Defender, which (combined w/ Tier 1 Durable Defense) = +25 PRR/MRR, which is a nice boost to survivability.

+6 Fortification + 2 HP + (probably) +1 AC/+1 Armor Max Dex Bonus to get there.

And you dont need a heavy armor for defense instance, just a shield. Use light armor + large shield and get prr/mrr (instance) + more dodge cap.
Not much, but help.

[C-Dog]

And you dont need a heavy armor for defense instance...

I'm confused why you're quoting me - I don't see how your comment relates to mine. Stalwart Defender has nothing to do w/ whether or not you wear Heavy Armor. You could be naked and still get the SD benefits (strange, but true).

[Coffey]

Thank you all for your insight.

It's unfortunate that Power Attack is a prereq for Cleave, as it is a wasted feat for me. I'm running in Combat Expertise stance.

I'm trying to get a nice balance between defense and offense. I've always concentrated more on dps, but I'm getting tired of getting killed so much , so as an experiment, I'm now going the opposite way, mostly defense , with enough dps to get me through the quest. If it takes me a little longer to get through the dungeon, that's fine. I'm really tired of getting killed off.

Combat Expertise Stance: While using Combat Expertise mode, you suffer -5 to your attack rolls. This is not a good idea at all as it will severely penalise your offence ability to land an attack.

The 10% AC is for AC stacking for Aggro Tanking. So if you have 35 AC right now is it really worth it? Its not.

There are better ways to increase defences.

Edit: The best AC increase is in the Stalwart Defender tree tier 4 Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]% which is 23 AP into the tree.
If you can get your UMD to 28 there are Scrolls of Displacement for 50% concealment for those tough battles.

If you are dying a lot it may be you need to change in your tactics and maybe lower the level of difficulty for your run.