PvP in DDO

[Proton]

I am beginning this thread after I recently asked why have we a forum section dedicated to PvP in DDO. As a player who enjoys both PvP and PVE, it helps me understand the concerns of PVE players in this game when it comes to updating PvP into some kind of meaningful system, that PvP should never dominate DDO, never replace questing as the best path of development, never become a mandatory part of character development, and should not divide bases.

Playing this game for almost its entire duration online, I have had PvP fights in the pit and a few 1 on 1 in the queue instances you can challenge a friend to. I have never once been in a team battle, though after reviewing one (sadly I could find no more) on youtube, it looks like a lot of fun, and I want to. I don't even know what the 4 Law arenas look like, after all this time. These seem like wasted resources, they are there, but not being used much, if at all for even PvPers like myself.

I recently jumped in a thread entitled "Why is PvP dead" before it went necro, and I clearly remember a time when PvP was active all day long in the pit, filled with people wasting time testing their toons against others. I did this some, but found it boring and unproductive, and I am a huge PvP fan, but it wasn't really much of a game to me with it going nowhere, and this is how a majority of PvP players think. It was a mixed lot, some actually just there for PvP, but without any reward and with PLs piling in the questing PVE path of development, PvP become more a detriment to any development and an even bigger waste of time. It lost interest and now the arenas are empty most of the time.

It worked for a bit even as a waste of time activity. Then as things changed the changes broke what it was, which was a place of consistent activity.



I've played so many PvP games, and seen things that work better then other things. I've observed the differences between the 24/7 active and the here and there active. There are two major factors involved.

Convenient match making.

Reward.



Neither of these exist in DDO PvP activities. The queue allows players to pick which place they want to go, how long, and set up all sorts of knit picky details that other players might not go for, then to find those to agree to their choice, with so many rooms dividing the queue, fights would be a longer wait if not ending up how we see it is now, waiting for ever because it didn't work.

PvPers want to fight now, and not spend time and energy getting others involved. A good queue allows them to quickly find each other without even looking. It gets them into a fight fast. The queue right now does the opposite, it slows this down to an individual exact fitting process, spread out by talking to Law, challenging players in the street, or just waiting in the pit. This serves to further divide queues and make PvPers wait, which is something they can't stand and will drive em off.

But the real nail in the coffin is no reward. Winning just lost a huge part of its appeal. That makes it less fun. For PvPers, there are games that reward them for their matches, giving coin and experience points, and giving more to the winners. This makes you want to win, and not want to lose. You invest interest and it makes the matches more interesting, more intense, and more involving. PvP will never be meaningful if there is no reward, and as long as it is not meaningful, it will not gather any following at all. It has to have reward to make it live.


I've been getting my fix for PvP mostly from War Robots, and it provides a model of excellence for interesting PvP matches. It is still evolving, and this game is light years ahead of it in so many ways I can't begin to start there. But its PvP works, that is all there is there, and its 24/7 nonstop, because its a lot of fun.

For a PvP reward system to be added to the game without messing with PVE, team match ups work best, where groups are compressed into a single queue to make sure the fights arrive as fast as possible, the fights are limited to 10 minutes but can end sooner in come cases, the teams are randomly assembled of 6 vs 6 (this makes setting up exploits a waste of time- the exp reward shouldn't be more then running fast normal difficulty quests anyways, it should be less), and the arenas are also random along with the kind of fight. You never know who you will be teamed up with, nor which setting you will get.

I currently saw two kinds of team match ups.

Deathmatch
Capture the Flag


Deathmatch is get the most kills before timer runs out.
Capture the flag is different then how I know it, I've never done the version they have in DDO, and would like to try it.

The version I know is where you run to a circle beacon, stand in the circle for a long enough to make it turn to your team color, and if you got more beacons on your side their timer goes down faster, going very fast if you get all 5 beacons. This puts a lot of pressure to run around to different places and secure beacons, and causes fights to break out over those beacons. Its a lot of fun!

I also play Domination matches, which involve beacons and works just like capture the flag, but when you die you have to start at the same point (which can be ambushed if other team creeps up on it - thus domination) and run out to the beacons to capture them or keep them defended. In the capture the flag version I know, you can start at any of the beacons your team has captured if you die and come back. This prevents domination, and changes the group strategy completely.

Teams also balance far better then individuals, fights last longer and are more dynamic.


Focusing on these two a bit more - first the Queue

the best way to fix the queue to make it provide fast matches is to set of a random queue that you can enter that keeps fights shorter, doesn't let players set timer, can be accessed from anywhere at their convenience (so within their challenge options they can just go to enter random match and don't need to select anyone), while that Law NPC could be found at the taverns as another check in point leading to the same random queue and matches. While the player spec'd PvP matches can stay optional how they are, and don't need to be changed (since they can be exploited, experience and reward should not function for player spec'd PvP matches), adding a random match set up botton "enter random match" or "fight" or something that funnels all the possible arenas to where matches are filling up as fast as possible.

So a PvPer can just go straight into PvP where other PvPers are easily finding each other (without using the lfm at all), having the matches arranged for them, and jumping right into the action instead of waiting around getting bored it is best to make reduce waiting time as much as possible.

This then connects to the other part, reward, because by adding reward, now, not only is it easier for PvPers to find good matches and fast, there is incentive for them as well. The reward is the most important part in cementing activity and making PvP interesting and fun for PvPers, without any reward PvP will remain a waste of time at best.

Reward

this can not mess with the PVE. It should help the toons develop, because the grind from start to finish is already one of the longest of all MMORPGs. For this reason, it would be an asset to the game to have more avenues of development to reach that. PvP should award some experience points for the random uncontrolled matches that get players to spend their time. In order to prevent it from shadowing PVE for experience points, it should be calculated so that it is faster to do normal PVE quests then to grind PvP fights to level up. PvP players won't notice or care much, as time will seem to fly by for them when they are having fun.

PvP should also reward coin. Coin and experience being the minimum reward. With the coin, PvPers can go to the Auction House to get better gear, but will likely end up going to quests to get things anyways. At least it gives them some leverage until they just got to have that named item that never shows up in the auction. Items in the auction house will sell more this way. Perhaps the winning team can win 1 piece of vendor trash at their level or if they win 3 fights or something. Keeping it minimum to start makes the most sense though, anything more just adds to the programming.

Naturally the winning group should win the most, but the losing group should also get something. Exp rewards should only come from the random compressed and uncontrolled queues that consolidate PvP match ups to speed up the matches as fast as possible. Match ups also need to keep levels within a reasonable range of each other to prevent weird match ups like level 30 groups vs level 1 groups. That should be automatically taken care of for the player when he or she enters the queue, it knowing their level and what random range to match them up with.


That is it. Two things.

Consolidate the Queue, and add some reward. It is as little as possible I can think of to do, and would have a massive impact for PvPers, and enable me to quickly find matches like the ones I see in youtube videos that make me super sad I am not easily finding that kind of fun and that it isn't really going anywhere when it could be a good part of the game, that contributes to lfms, alts, and population, as well as activities to select and participate in.


I've had a few simple ideas for other kinds of fun matches that could be added to the queue, just two off the top of my head:

Reaper vs Team vs Team, (in this two teams fight each other while there is a reaper team trying to beat both teams. If both teams don't work together, reapers will probably win, but only one team can win in the end, so at some point they have to fight each other again. This one could even reward a bit of reaper experience and allow reaper trees to function. Being random in the queue, it would not be a reliable thing to exploit, but something to look forward to for reaper developed toons, and something to win for reaperless toons. - the other arenas that have nothing to do with reaper should not give reaper exp nor allow the reaper trees to function)

5 lives (this is team vs team where each player only gets 5 lives, if they die, they become a stone and have about 10 seconds to get a res spell or they lose one life, it could be 5 seconds. After they die 5 times they are eliminated. If one team runs out of toons first, its side loses. If the timer runs out first, the team with the most kills wins)



One last thing, reward is better for participating points. In games like War Robots, you get more of these from dealing lots of damage or healing, capturing flags or liberating flags, getting kills - pikers don't get as much this way, and it helps motivate the playing members of the team to do their best. This would be included in the reward system, where it gives a better reward for beating a higher level total of the team fought against, but increases further for the players who contributed the most to the victory. In this way, you end up competing a bit with your own team members, but if you get too caught up doing that you risk losing the match and the spoils anyways. Regardless of how its implements, some sort of reward system is the only thing that will make PvP interesting enough for PvP players. Reward in this case being both fast and fun matches along with some gain.


In closing, I'd like to share a PvP youtube video that looks interesting and fun to myself and players like me who enjoy PvP:


(Team vs Team, what a dream!)

(Edit: I love this video, its spell binding, I can feel the clash of living will power that no AI can ever deliver, makes me so jealous and wanting. IMO Best DDO Video I've seen, AI just can't do this)

(I was hoping to find another team vs team video on youtube, but apparently this is the only one. I've never seen this happen, and its just sad to think its just happening every blue moon or so, when it could be something all my alts are jumping in on in between quests, having fun still progressing, instead of waiting for lfms and passing out - while it is the only vid I could find, it is an awesome one, and Kudos to the player who made it - your video is simply amazing and looks like you had a lot of fun - makes me wish it was available and something I could easily do when I have time)

[Saekee]

Very thoughtful post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like the idea of a team version and I do believe something must happen to nerf dps output of player vs player. I am not sure if I would do this since many aspects of the gameplay I most enjoy are not possible to activate in PvP such as stealthing up to someone.

Another option is Team versus environment competition in which a guild can put together a group and attempt to overcome some quest in some high setting with some kind of standard for rating the completion (the obvious is speed but that is not very imaginative).

It could also be fun to have the PvP built around a first-life toon at a specific level such as level 4. That would be a hoot.

[Proton]

Very thoughtful post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like the idea of a team version and I do believe something must happen to nerf dps output of player vs player. I am not sure if I would do this since many aspects of the gameplay I most enjoy are not possible to activate in PvP such as stealthing up to someone.

Another option is Team versus environment competition in which a guild can put together a group and attempt to overcome some quest in some high setting with some kind of standard for rating the completion (the obvious is speed but that is not very imaginative).

It could also be fun to have the PvP built around a first-life toon at a specific level such as level 4. That would be a hoot.

Stealth would be a lot of fun to use in PvP and it can be done. In War Robots you can tell where your enemies are because there are red arrows on the perimeter of the screen, they are at the bottom that means the enemies are behind you, if at top they are in front of you but possibly too far to see or behind something, and left or right is as it is. When stealth is activated on a robot, you can no longer see its red arrow, but you can still see it if its right in front of you. Also, you can't target it with any weapons while stealth is active, but stealth doesn't last long, about 10 seconds or less. There is a cool down and then you can use it again.


If team vs team was provided a larger arena then a room, having something like these red arrows to help know where enemies, stealth could do the same thing, making it so players don't see and know someone is to the left or right. Though in DDO, you can turn your head to the left and right very fast to look around, sneaking in this case would require using the environment more carefully because you'd be sneaking up to real person who might be not paying attention.

Another option is to give Invisibility about 10 to 20 seconds, then put it on a cooler, or stealth causing toon to "dissappear" as if invisible to any toons who fail to detect it while sneaking. With a 20 second timer followed by a 30 second cool down, sneak can become a very helpful team weapon for capturing flags, sneaking into ambush positions, or taking out the distracted players in combat.

Another trick they can use would be to have PPR and MMR scale up as your level increases while in team vs team, instead of pumping in a lot of hps, this would reduce damage a bit more and allow for longer fights. But it is okay if kills come in fast during a team match, as I discovered from playing many of them where single hit means death, most shoot em up games don't have you surviving long, and a hit to the head is auto death. Still they can have 10 minute team battles that are lots of fun, involve tactics, coordination, and interesting objectives. I think team vs team even with dps as it is would provide interesting and challenging matches.

Right now, there appears to be no plans to fix PvP, and I am concerned that if presenting such a task appears too taxing, risky, and time consuming it will continue to go unfixed. I am not sure how hard it would be to add something for DPS alleviation, and while I think its something worth trying, rolling it out with a fix might overload the idea. Perhap it would be something to include in the queues as a type of PvP you might get when entering random queue, something with a name like "Immortal Buff" that toughens up the toon's survivability. I'd suggest to perhaps at a later time add it to the queue (war robots recently added death match and all against all for example, it started with domination only, then came flag, so here in DDO they could add such as you suggest later on after first putting the minimum amount into the least risky fix for PvP possible. Trying to keep any work involved as little as possible to get it fixed in the first place.

Right now, it would be just incredible if they got PvP fixed so that players could easily get into a match and not feel like its a boring waste of time. That would be dream come true for many players. In fact, I had a dream last night about having PvP team fights, it was rather vivid and for a bit of time I couldn't tell that I was dreaming. Off course talking about it and having it fresh on the mind can easily carry over to a dream. It would likely be better in reality though

[Proton]

I have already altered my schedule and won't have as much time throughout the week to play, questing always has a way of consuming a lot more time then intended, whereas PvP is more quick in and out oriented. I am able to jump into some interesting matches with thinking living intelligent opponents that are capable of adapting to my tactics and forcing me to adapt as well. Right now, if I jump into DDO for some PvP fun, it wouldn't be much fun because what little time I can spare during operations would be spent trying to find someone to match me, and with this time spent nothing is gained even if I do find someone to match up. Aside from that, 1 on 1 matches could be fun, but right now they are not, though team matches offer a lot more possible combinations for a good team. If 1 on 1 put players in a arena, then first to 7 kills or something, it would work a lot better, but as long as the queue is breaking it up to individual preferences, knit pick selective behavior will prevent fast matches from occurring.

I'd have a lot more fun with this game if it's PvP was alive. Looking through the thousands of lists of team chat groups for PvP games, where even 1 game can end up easily with a few thousand of their own chat lines for coordinating PvP matches, PvP clearly has more potential to gather a larger following then PVE. PvP players get to see how their toons stand up to each other right away, how they fit into team matches, and can figure out if they are getting their 1st life toons to compete or beat completionalists (should any show up in an attempt to show off).

With as little as a good queue and some reward PvP would become an attractive money making option, which could be blended in to complement the PVE system without enveloping it or detracting from it, but to contrary, helping to stimulate the economy, bring in new players, and fill up lfms faster as treasure hunting PvP players reach for better gear.

[Proton]

Looking back at all the threads posted from the past on this topic, 11 pages of titles, 11 pages of requests for PvP systems or players talking about it. And as these collected over time, so many comments challenging PvP's place in DDO and how many disappointed players from this? 11 pages is a lot of reps.

If I should ask myself "am I the lastest lost cause wanderer in these PvP untouched zone where so many players announce PvP must stay dead or not intended or not $$$, finding reasons to fit their biased preferences and by this dousing the torch of hope PvP DDO fans had and causing many of them to disappear?" "Will PvP ever come to life?" "Am I the last one to play DDO despite its lack of PvP that I like, have all the others fled, leaving me to play mostly with PvP haters and no chance of PvP now?" "What in the world is really going on with PvP, will there ever be a moment of clarity?"

Not much else to say beyond that. 11 pages says a lot on its own. The gaming industry says a lot on its own. I suppose I'll just shrug and sigh and maybe one day it will appear, but if 11 pages and 10 years has anything to say, then there is little more I can add to that. I sought the easiest fastest more harmless fix possible, no developer I know formally announced it will never happen, yet players have for so long both claimed this and demanded it in their names, it has been so overly denounced and detested by the haters of PvP that I feel at lost to do much for then I tried.

If the easiest fit and fix doesn't appeal to add/fixing this, what will?

[cdbd3rd]

...Reward....

Even here in the PvP zone, I will vehemently oppose anything resembling a "reward" for any PvP activity.

...and that's all I got to say about that.

[Proton]

Even here in the PvP zone, I will vehemently oppose anything resembling a "reward" for any PvP activity.

...and that's all I got to say about that.

Odd.. o.O

I found out tonight while visiting a friend you can win 1,000,000$ in WoW PvP championships.

I think I discovered one of the biggest secrets of PvP reward system, the best reward is real money!!!

They got 200 servers, we got 8. Chances of winning that money are next to nothing but knowing its possible makes building the toon much much muuuuuuuuuuucchhhchchchchchchchchchchchchchchhch (pant pant) more interest!


You don't want to win 1,000,000$? I want to win 1,000,000$ If DDO did this, holy kites, where do I begin?


I am upping the anty, experience points, gold, and a chance to win real life money!


Its already being done right now, and I do like winning things, don't you?

[Drunkendex]

Odd.. o.O

I found out tonight while visiting a friend you can win 1,000,000$ in WoW PvP championships.

I think I discovered one of the biggest secrets of PvP reward system, the best reward is real money!!!

They got 200 servers, we got 8. Chances of winning that money are next to nothing but knowing its possible makes building the toon much much muuuuuuuuuuucchhhchchchchchchchchchchchchchchhch (pant pant) more interest!


You don't want to win 1,000,000$? I want to win 1,000,000$ If DDO did this, holy kites, where do I begin?


I am upping the anty, experience points, gold, and a chance to win real life money!


Its already being done right now, and I do like winning things, don't you?

WOW is also overhyped and among most popular MMORPG's (maybe even most popular, can't bother to check) while DDO, while excellent and fresh (for an 12 yo game) take on MMORPG franchise yet still fairly unpopular MMORPG.
If DDO had 10% of WOW's playerbase, they could afford to cater to your wish of better PVP, sadly they don't have such playerbase.

I see you're complaining for lack of opponents in PVP.
And are quite hostile to those who disagree with you.

What stops you from making dedicated PVP matchmaking thread?

On Sarlona, High Lords of Malkier have dedicated thread where they announce teaching raids.

Do something similar.

Example: for server you're on, announce there will be, let's say, barb mashup on Wednesday 8 PM, level 8-10 invited, then, one hour later, free for all lvl 18-19. <- just an example on levels, classes, etc.
If I'm not mistaken there was something like that around Halloween.

You can even try to contact devs to ensure your mashup won't be ransacked by some capped griefer.

[cdbd3rd]

Odd.. o.O

I found out tonight while visiting a friend you can win 1,000,000$ in WoW PvP championships.....

Well, whatya still doin' here?

[Proton]

Well, whatya still doin' here?

I have realized that while you pose as a supporter of PvP, this is a disguise so you can infiltrate and suppress it to death, you are not a supporter of PvP and never will be, since you are so "vehement" as you say. It's good to see the mask come off!

I am buying a new computer so I can play Black Desert, WoW, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2... and I'll probably toss in Final Fantasy 16 or whatever since all 5 of these are currently the most popular MMORPG games there are. Oh, and I found out GW2 is total fun to play. When I see black desert on youtube, it is a no brainer fun to play and it also... has... a better combat system then DDO. I was left drooling...

If one of these games lacked PvP, I would NEVER EVER consider it, specially after experiencing DDO's meaningless boring dull no one does it PvP that they are devoted to ignoring.

I am already on it, rest assured, there is no reason to joke about time and living.



Why am I still here? To finish a few things, communicate things you don't want to have to admit others want, to be different that way I am not trying to conform to any group or peer system, and at this point to clarify why I've been losing interest in the game.


I get the feeling you want me to leave sooner? Is that what the statement adds up into? Just say it and then you can feel responsible for the aftermath


I'll be off getting PvP in another game, and no one can stop me!

[cdbd3rd]

A belated reply. I just hadn't noticed this thread hanging here...

I have realized that while you pose as a supporter of PvP, this is a disguise so you can infiltrate and suppress it to death, you are not a supporter of PvP and never will be, since you are so "vehement" as you say. It's good to see the mask come off!

Oh, no disguise at all. No posing. I just make sure to stick to the thread topic in this zone. In this case, any idea of actual rewards for PvP activity.

I get the feeling you want me to leave sooner? Is that what the statement adds up into? Just say it and then you can feel responsible for the aftermath

I have no control over your feeling. Confirming whether it is a correct feeling or not would be inappropriate and shall remain a bait un-nibbled.

I'll be off getting PvP in another game, and no one can stop me!

*Looks around*

I really don't see anyone trying to stop you.

[esojiul]

Well, whatya still doin' here?

This young generation that wants safe zones. They show aggressiveness to positions that differ from theirs.

[esojiul]

Even here in the PvP zone, I will vehemently oppose anything resembling a "reward" for any PvP activity.

...and that's all I got to say about that.

I am opposed to superb positions, so I support it