Tempests are Rediculous

[zehnvhex]

He can hit for 1500 on a crit every 3 seconds though!

[Kaboom2112]

He can hit for 1500 on a crit every 3 seconds though!

DPS = Damage, possibly, sometime.

[Question2005]

The problem is simple. Dance of death scales via dps. More DPS (whether via attack speed, double strikes, or extra damage) works. Cleaves do not scale via anything but raw damage, and they do so badly because the cleave is on a 5s cooldown and only adds 1 or 2W...which is an average of 7 damage with a greatsword. In particualr, they do not scale via attack speed at all, whether animation speed or cooldown speed.

Level 17+ mobs have 3k hp. Trash mobs by the way. Even IF you somehow got a fighter to do 200 slashing damage PER HIT...200 damage to 3k hp mobs every 5s is basically nothing.

Make cleaves scale, taking into account the fact that it has a 5s cooldown. Problem solved.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

The problem is simple. Dance of death scales via dps. More DPS (whether via attack speed, double strikes, or extra damage) works. Cleaves do not scale via anything but raw damage, and they do so badly because the cleave is on a 5s cooldown and only adds 1 or 2W...which is an average of 7 damage with a greatsword. In particualr, they do not scale via attack speed at all, whether animation speed or cooldown speed.

Level 17+ mobs have 3k hp. Trash mobs by the way. Even IF you somehow got a fighter to do 200 slashing damage PER HIT...200 damage to 3k hp mobs every 5s is basically nothing.

Make cleaves scale, taking into account the fact that it has a 5s cooldown. Problem solved.

You have the correct diagnosis of the problem but a bad solution IMO. Cleaves will always suck so long as they do not scale with attack speed and doublestrike.

[Maldorin]

You have the correct diagnosis of the problem but a bad solution IMO. Cleaves will always suck so long as they do not scale with attack speed and doublestrike.

I think cleaves could be more useful by adding more [W] die and melee power to the cleave. Maybe have three tiers. +10/+30/+50 melee power and +2/+3/+4 [W] die

Something like that.

Then throw in a legendary cleave where you double cleave.

dance of what?

[CaptainPurge]

Time to ditch farming BIS raid gear as a Tempest because someone posted it as OP. GG. /s

[Tilomere]

Level 17+ mobs have 3k hp. Trash mobs by the way. Even IF you somehow got a fighter to do 200 slashing damage PER HIT...200 damage to 3k hp mobs every 5s is basically nothing.

Soundburst followed by oppurtunity attack + cleave, great cleave, and WWA hits for 3k AoE in R1 every 5 seconds on a fighter at 17+ in late heroics. Caster kensai.

270 is what you hit for at level 10 multiple times AoE with WWA in R1.



200 AoE is below the damage of WWA at level 6 in R1 with two hits on WWA.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Soundburst followed by oppurtunity attack + cleave, great cleave, and WWA hits for 3k AoE in R1 every 5 seconds on a fighter at 17+ in late heroics.

Your screenshot doesn't show that.

[Cantor]

Your screenshot doesn't show that.

He's counting cl gcl wwa cycle not just a single attack. That's reasonable based on pic. Maybe a little inflated my estimate is 2.5k

[Shadow_Jumper]

He's counting cl gcl wwa cycle not just a single attack. That's reasonable based on pic.

He's showing R1 numbers. The discussion was about r10 at cap. AFAIK nobody here is doubting the effectiveness of cleaves/AoE dmg builds in heroics.

If Tilo actually cared to run that build to cap he would soon realize how bad cleave/greater cleave are at cap. The main reason why is because there’s a turning point in difficulty (usually at epic levels) where the damage of cL/Glc isn’t doing enough damage to justify the broken attack animation. Based on Tilo’s comments I’m confident he has never put his builds into those situations.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

He's counting cl gcl wwa cycle not just a single attack. That's reasonable based on pic. Maybe a little inflated my estimate is 2.5k

So Tilo has autocrit? Because I'm seeing a 400

[Tilomere]

So Tilo has autocrit? Because I'm seeing a 400

Only a few #s show and rise up at a time, but WWA hits >3x, cleave hits 1x, and gcleave hits 1x for 5 hits. Adamantine knuckles have a 25% crit rate. So 1.25 crits of >1200, and 3.75 hits of >400 are >3k. Ish. Some 2nd wind champs clear CC.

Here is another fighter heroic combo that hits for more than 200 AoE in R1. You soundburst stun with No Mercyx6 , then hit 10k/manyshot to boost ranged power (feats for both ranged and casting due to all the bonus fighter/monk feats), then hit fan of knives. Collect lost soul for mana, and stealth on until you need to AoE burst something down again. I forgot to hit impulse potion and candy for spell power, and purposely didn't hit ranged power boost, but just imagine bigger #s.



I'm working on an autocrit version of this build where the spell crit goes to 100% with spell crit damage, but I'm not quite there yet.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Only a few #s show and rise up at a time, but WWA hits >3x, cleave hits 1x, and gcleave hits 1x for 5 hits. Adamantine knuckles have a 25% crit rate. So 1.25 crits of >1200, and 3.75 hits of >400 are >3k. Ish. Some 2nd wind champs clear CC.

Here is another fighter heroic combo that hits for more than 200 AoE in R1. You soundburst stun with No Mercyx6 , then hit 10k/manyshot to boost ranged power (feats for both ranged and casting due to all the bonus fighter/monk feats), then hit fan of knives. Collect lost soul for mana, and stealth on until you need to AoE burst something down again. I forgot to hit impulse potion and candy for spell power, and purposely didn't hit ranged power boost, but just imagine bigger #s.

A well built fighter is just overall powerful in heroics, melee or ranged.

Yea. I don't think that was the conversation though.

I think you got a mild case of the barbarian goggles. You see a big number and automatically think you do great dps, your builds great, etc.

R10 reduces player DPS (melee) by ~94%. At that level, Rate of attack becomes extremely important because the number of hits you do is not nerfed, the amount of damage you do is. This heavily affects ThF builds at cap due to their reliance on hard hitting crits. An ability like DoD, which provides AoE dmg without breaking the player's attack animations is a massive step up from a single AoE attack that does break your attack animation.

However you continue to post useless pictures about heroic content that isn't very relevant to the conversation right now.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

fair enough

Can you get 95-110 soundburst at cap?

[Tilomere]

However you continue to post useless pictures about heroic content that isn't very relevant to the conversation right now.

The vast majority of the population will never reach or stay at a point that tempest significantly outperforms a kensai in a dungeon. There is no way in hell a well built tempest ever beats a well built centered kensai in heroics. There is no way in hell a heroic ranger AA/DWS beats a fighter thrower/monkcher like above. However, I'm totally ok with being on the safe side and nerfing both of them. And monk. And warlock for good measure.

Which is why we should nerf dire charge. We can nerf every melee in the game that way at the same time. It's efficient, and then instead of complaining about the 1% case where A>B, people can complain that 100% of As and Bs got nerfed. And maybe shift another die or two on warlocks to epics.

[Shadow_Jumper]

The vast majority of the population will never reach or stay at a point that tempest significantly outperforms a kensai in a dungeon. There is no way in hell a well built tempest ever beats a well built centered kensai in heroics. There is no way in hell a heroic ranger AA/DWS beats a fighter thrower/monkcher like above. However, I'm totally ok with being on the safe side and nerfing both of them. And monk. And warlock for good measure.

I think you misunderstand my position, I was just pointing out that your comments are currently adding nothing relevant to what was being discussed in the thread. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with a proposed nerf to tempest.

With the fiasco that was the latest round of monk nerfs I would be very hesitant on calling for nerfs simply because I don't think the devs really understand how power structure through different levels of the game work. Sure the monk die change balanced monk decently in epic, but it was a pointlessly massive nerf to heroic builds. a change in some ED abilities, or just weapon tweaking would have done the same effect.

Which is why we should nerf dire charge. We can nerf every melee in the game that way at the same time. It's efficient, and then instead of complaining about the 1% case where A>B, people can complain that 100% of As and Bs got nerfed. And maybe shift another die or two on warlocks to epics.

This is more of a case of !)#$ you and the horse you ride in on.

For the record, some of us believe that yes, there should be a focus on end game instead of your laise faire attitude toward those that play at cap. SSG has probably lost a fair amount of veteran and new customers because for so long the game has been disproportionately focused on TRs over end game. It would not surprise me if more than a few players saw the game for what it was, a giant grind with 0 endgame, and decided that they would rather not invest any time into the game.

All the while you cheer on the fact that you stick it to those uber leet players at cap who simply want to have a fun, balanced, skill based game at cap because they find the grind wall so repetitive and boring. I have hope that the new raid changes (a small step that should only be the beginning imo) and Sharn coming out soon will vastly improve the endgame scope. You just seem to have the mindset of I don't like what they're doing at cap so just hit them with the nerf annihilation hammer!

Have fun with your attitude.

[Tilomere]

monk...balanced, skill based game at cap

Heh, monk and balanced, skill based game. That's hilarious. You want a skill based game? Take some of the I do everything and can solo R7 skills from a monk/barb/etc away, and limit them to the classes they were intended for and who have real drawbacks for having them like how pnp D&D is designed.

Mass stun is a caster skill, and takes caster investment and limitations. Mass frog on a monk? Yea, we both know that shouldn't exist either. I won't even start on healing hands.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Heh, monk and balanced, skill based game. That's hilarious. You want a skill based game? Take some of the I do everything and can solo R7 skills from a monk/barb/etc away, and limit them to the classes they were intended for and who have real drawbacks for having them like how pnp D&D is designed.

Mass stun is a caster skill, and takes caster investment and limitations. Mass frog on a monk? Yea, we both know that shouldn't exist either. I won't even start on healing hands.

Sounds a lot like you and trying to put soundburst on everything.

I think the exception is that you believe you're trying something cutting edge and different (which you are) while you feel like other builds that have more functionality at cap because they don't go so crazy with the multiclass/multirole that you build for do it easier, and proportionally much better. I'd imagine that's why you call for nerfs of everything besides soundburst.

[Question2005]

Soundburst followed by oppurtunity attack + cleave, great cleave, and WWA hits for 3k AoE in R1 every 5 seconds on a fighter at 17+ in late heroics. Caster kensai.

270 is what you hit for at level 10 multiple times AoE with WWA in R1.



200 AoE is below the damage of WWA at level 6 in R1 with two hits on WWA.

You are posting a screenshot showing a character with insane amounts of past lives (particularly epic past lives) buffs. Pretty much everything is OP at that stage. Your level 10 character has stats that make normal level 20s look like a joke.

Most of us are talking about normal characters.

For the record my last life was a half-orc pure 2H fighter, at level 20 using the best ML 15 crafted weapon possible, i was hitting ~160 on the ship training dummy with no buffs. Still means nothing because even with opportunity attack, cleaves on a 5s cooldown dont hurt 3k+ hp trash mobs unless you get a crit, which is not going to happen consistently. If cleaves were a guaranteed crit that ignored fortification, that would be a different story entirely (but obviously isnt going to happen).

You may as well show a screenshot of a pure caster with 70 AC at level 1 (or some other crazy number) and then saying "see, its not hard for a caster to get high AC at level 1!".

Meanwhile tempest has built in scaling off attack speed, double strike, etc, while cleaves do not. The fundamental problem is that cleaves only scale off raw damage and ignore DPS scaling from all other sources. Most MMORPGs that use skills like these have them scale off DPS, not damage per hit for a reason.

When you are in korthos or harbor, +1 or +2W is actually relevant to the damage you do at that point. But it quickly becomes irrelevant because it does not scale.

[zehnvhex]

who have real drawbacks for having them like how pnp D&D is designed.

Because nobody in the history of ever has multi-classed outside of DDO.

Cleric and Warlock were extremely popular dips in 3.5. For most classes there was rarely a reason not to.