Defence against spells

[SpiritofAlba]

There are various things that help in game with avoiding physical damage, AC, PRR, dodge, incorporeality, etc. I feel like I have a reasonable sense of how much difference these make at different levels in the game, and the relative importance of each, which of course partly depends on light vs heavy builds. The ability to cope with, or not, incoming blows gives pretty instant feedback on how well physical defenses are doing.

There are in game various things that help with defense against mob spells: SR, MRR, increasing saves etc. I feel much less clear on what is important here, and how much difference it makes. I am not even sure how spell saves stack or not (e.g. illusion saves vs spell saves vs will saves), but that is a detail really. What I feel really unsure of is how it fits together, and what matters. Because mob spells are less frequent and more varied than physical blows, its harder to get a sense of what is or isn’t working.

To be clear, it is not that I find mob spells problematic, they rarely are (at least in elite where I mostly play), it is more that I don’t have a feel for what defenses are really helping, and what are just ‘nice to have’ and what are largely worthless. Better understanding would help me gear up more intelligently / effectively, and probably to survive better when in reaper.

Also, this is not a question in relation to any particular build, though I appreciate that the answers may be somewhat build type dependent, as they are for physical defences.

Advice?

[PsychoBlonde]

PB's beginners spell defense kit in order of importance:

1. Shield clickie or wand of shield (or nightshield). Absolutely mandatory. If you don't have a clickie that will cast shield, get enough Use Magic Device to use wands of shield. A bad champion caster with magic missile is devastating and this is really the only way to defend against it. Heck, mobs with magic missiles by themselves can be nasty.
2. Deathward clickie/potions. Absolutely mandatory. You can get an endless supply of death ward clickies by farming Tangleroot Grove for Visor of the Flesh Render Guards. Will protect you from pesky negative levels, negative damage, and getting one-shot by death spells.
3. Freedom of Movement Boots. Or potion. Extremely desirable.
4. Deathblock item. Will protect you from getting one-shot by death spells when your death ward clickie wears off.
5. Spell absorption items. (Pale lavender ioun stone, jeweled cloak, etc.) These are really useful for eating spells that you can't otherwise defend against. They can also protect your buffs from being removed by beholders, although that eats up charges quickly.
6. Elemental absorption. There are a number of different ways to do this, from items to using Fire Shield scrolls. They're really useful to have but generally situational to specific quests that have lots of big damage mobs that do a specific type of elemental damage. It's a good idea to have UMD to be able to use fire shield scrolls, as mobs and traps that do large amounts of fire and cold damage are common.
7. MRR. MRR does NOT protect against force and untyped damage (part of the reason it's so important to have a shield clickie), but it soaks up everything else.
8. Saving throws. If you've taken the steps of getting Death Ward and FoM, reflex is your most important saving throw, as most damaging spells go up against your reflex save. There are SOME that use fortitude though (disintegrate). I have not tested this myself, but supposedly Resistance and Spell Saves do stack, even though they say they're both a resistance bonus and normally would NOT stack.
9. Move around. Quite a large number of spells can be physically dodged (usually ones without saving throws like Polar Ray). Caster mobs are pretty likely to miss you with spells if you just hop vigorously in place, honestly. This can radically reduce your incoming damage. If a fireball misses you entirely, it doesn't blow up and damage not only you, but your hireling and party members in the bargain.

Note that I didn't include Spell Resistance on this list. SR items and effects (like from being a Drow or a Deep Gnome) were severely nerfed and generally you can't get the numbers up high enough to be really useful (you'll need SR and insightful SR at a minimum, plus exceptional and quality if you can find it). SR only protects against spells that don't do damage as their primary thing, anyway, like Ray of Enfeeblement etc. It's not useless, but it's a lower priority to slot these days. If you really want SR the best way to get it so that it'll be useful is from enhancement and epic destiny trees, so it's going to depend HIGHLY on your character build whether this is worth your time.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Shield/nightshield is one it's very easy to see - magic missiles & force missiles simply won't work on you, which is nice because there aren't many ways to negate force damage

Otherwise, much like vs. physical effects, it's about building overlapping layers of defence & hoping one or more of them will intercept it - ignore the people who say that spell resistance is useless because it was changed so you can't get effective immunity to all those spells any more - 50% effectiveness is still decent & even only 20% is still the same % chance as blur, which many consider essential.

[NemesisAlien]

EK and ES tree got permanent shield, just saying.

Wish there is/was a permanent thing that gives death ward, death block sure, but level drain is a pain, there is also a limit as to how many death ward googles you can carry...

Currently lev 10 this life, 3 things i get most is level drain, hold and stupid cloud.

[lyrecono]

Blondes list mentioned a lot of immunity or absorb buffs, they are crucial.

As for SR, it works like armor class, you need to be able to hit a sweet spot for your choosen difficulty, if not its useless.
Some underdark races have a stacking bonus to it to help getting to that sweet spot.
A dwarven barb with the right enh and con score might as well hit the right spot.
In heroics i can usually get away with the philarian mirror cloak and later the helm of freewill, supported by a canith crafted insightfull sr item.
But in epics i have never seen people building a sr build. (Wich doesn't mean it doesn&t exist).

Mrr however is a different animal, it reduces regardless of its number, there is no sweet spot to reach like armor class and spell resistance, though i recommend getting it uo as high as possible on a melee
A melee usually ends up on the frontline, meaning you'll get targeted first by enemy casters that like to nuke/cc/instakill you.

Saves are another issue that shouldn't get ignored, they are essential on a melee, since the chance is big, you'll be targeted first.
Even without evasion, a high reflex save will help you get half damage most of the time and prevents secondairy effects like falling over.

That's why its so frustrating that the devs split up the saves (instead of just the ressistance enh) and sheltering (into prr and mrr), using the excuse that gearing a character should be about chooices.
Sadly, for a frontline melee there is no chooice, without the essentials you're a soulstone, thus we must wear double the items to cover basics that take away from other essentials. In other places this move would have been called a nerf .

/Rant off

Back on toppic, learn about spells on ddo wiki, they'll tell you what spells require what type of save, etc

[Shadrar]

2. Deathward clickie/potions. Absolutely mandatory. You can get an endless supply of death ward clickies by farming Tangleroot Grove for Visor of the Flesh Render Guards. Will protect you from pesky negative levels, negative damage, and getting one-shot by death spells.
4. Deathblock item. Will protect you from getting one-shot by death spells when your death ward clickie wears off.

Deathblock is more important than Deathward. Deathward can be dispelled, by Beholders, but also many of the Undead in newer quests. The worst missing Deathward can do is give you negative levels, which can be removed with Restoration scrolls. Deathward is still important (especially for Monks and casters), but not as important as Deathblock.

I'm also confused that you put Energy Absorption over MRR, given that MRR is basically just Energy Absorption, but for every element all at once.

Lastly, I'd say that FoM isn't really required as long as you have Immunity to Slippery Surfaces. FOM has been reduced in scope to a degree that they're basically the same affix at this point.

[Selvera]

EK and ES tree got permanent shield, just saying.

Wish there is/was a permanent thing that gives death ward,

KotC and PM get permanent death ward.
Also Shadowdancer,
and Vistanii gets immunity to energy drain, as does the purity filigree set bonus. (Purity can also get death block as a filigree, effectively giving permanent death ward).

So yeah; there are options.

[slarden]

Spell Resistance is a key thing to understand. You can check DDO wiki to get information about specific spells. Some spells are subject to a spell penetration check, e.g., hold and finger of death. The enemy spell penetration + a die roll is matched up against your spell resistance. It's a pass/fail check- if they can't bypass your spell resistance the spell doesn't land. Spells like lightning bolt are not subject to a spell penetration check.

As already mentioned the devs states illusion, enchantment and spell saves stacks with resistance even though they are typed the same. As far as I know there i no easy way to verify this other than to trust what the devs say is true. You would have gather a lot of data and reverse engineer the results and I am not sure if anyone ever did that.

When I was new to the game alot of things would result in my death: webbed, held, knocked down, stunned, stat draining. So the way I like to approach it is for actions that cause me specific significant problems how do I overcome it.

Web: negated by fire shield fire (sometimes lol), reedom of movement potion, spell or item, high reflex save or quickly removed with a high strength
Stuns: negated by stun immunity, high will save (force of personality for charisma builds), spell resistance in some cases
Held: negated by freedom of movement potion, spell or item or a high will save, spell resistance
Stat Damage: Often spell resistance or fast acting party members
Knockdown: Knockdown immunity, high balance, high reflex depending on type of knockdown. Command/Trip is not considered knockdown and requires a save instead.
Petrification: High Fortitude save, immunity to petrification
Level Drain: Death Ward (can be dispelled), immunity to level drain
Magic Missle which has no save and can be high damage: nightshield spell or clicky, shield spell or clicky, nightshield scroll (preferable over shield in most cases since there is no arcane failure check for armor/shields). As a new player I used to struggle with freshen the air on my melees until I learned about UMD and nightshield scrolls.

With Sentient weapons you can make spares that give immunity to knockdown or level drain - well worth it even though you are slightly weaker while using those. In Ghost of Perditions my only character that could solo it was an occult slayer barbarian with super high spell resistance to negate the constant stat drain attempts. I couldn't find ways to overcome that solo on any other characters. In mark of death I used to switch to divine crusader to get the immunity to petrification on some divine and martial builds. There are a few stun immunity items if you can't get a high will save. Freedom of movement potions are available for remnants.

[cru121]

Protego!


Expecto patronum!


And this:
https://media.giphy.com/media/NjpczBI3USLKM/200.gif

[droid327]

Generally you can divide them up into damage spells and CC spells...

Damage spells are mitigated by MRR and reduced by saves, or if you have Evasion can sometimes be outright negated. CC spells are negated by a save, with SR acting as a kind of backup save if you fail your first one.

Saves are definitely the first line of magic defense. They have the most effect in mitigating both damage and cc spells. Afaik all untyped save sources stack - so Spell Saves, Saves vs Enchantment, etc will stack with Resistance typed bonus, Insightful, etc. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that. Typed saves, of course, don't stack with themselves, so e.g. Insight saves from Parrying won't stack with Insight from another source. There are also some feats like PL: Bard that can boost saves

Generally, Illusion and Enchantment are the CC spells and Evocation is damage, with a handful of Conjuration and Necromancy in both categories...but I don't know if there's any school-specific save bonuses except for Ill and Ench

Crafting is a good source for spell degre defense gear - you can craft a cloak iirc with SR, Ins SR, and Spell Saves.

[zehnvhex]

it was changed so you can't get effective immunity to all those spells any more - 50% effectiveness is still decent & even only 20% is still the same % chance as blur, which many consider essential.

Nothing was changed about how SR works. They just nerfed how much you can get. It's still your SR vs. Mob CR + 1d20 + any hidden bonus modifiers (reaper/legendary/etc...). Keep in mind they upped mob spell pen in reaper significantly as well.

Previously you could wear sub-optimal gear but get SR immunity so it was situationally worth the trade-off against a handful of mobs on niche builds, hardly something anybody took seriously.

You could get SR immunity against most trash NPC's, but getting SR immunity against bosses and things like that would still require doing an occultist build. All they did was make it so you could no longer even get SR immunity against trash NPC's. Since you can get 95% immunity with standard resists against trash NPC's, there's absolutely no point to giving up 4 equipment slots for a 20% chance when you already have a 95% chance.

So yes, listen to the people who say SR is worthless.

[NemesisAlien]

KotC and PM get permanent death ward.
Also Shadowdancer,
and Vistanii gets immunity to energy drain, as does the purity filigree set bonus. (Purity can also get death block as a filigree, effectively giving permanent death ward).

So yeah; there are options.

Kotc and shadow tier 5, heavy investment, pass

Pm I dont see it but then again neg heals you so ah well

Vistanii tier 4, not so bad.

SO for minimal investment seem pm zombie is the way to go... With Ek total only need 8 ap... I think.

[PsychoBlonde]

Deathblock is more important than Deathward. Deathward can be dispelled, by Beholders, but also many of the Undead in newer quests. The worst missing Deathward can do is give you negative levels, which can be removed with Restoration scrolls. Deathward is still important (especially for Monks and casters), but not as important as Deathblock.

If you have decent saves you only have a 5% chance of being hit by an instant-death spell. Neg levels can instant-kill you if you get enough of them, which happens pretty frequently as many, many caster mobs positively spam them. There are quite a few nasty negative spells out there that do significant damage, too.

Deathward > deathblock. I run without deathblock all the time and never notice a difference. I notice immediately when I don't have death ward.

[NemesisAlien]

If you have decent saves you only have a 5% chance of being hit by an instant-death spell. Neg levels can instant-kill you if you get enough of them, which happens pretty frequently as many, many caster mobs positively spam them. There are quite a few nasty negative spells out there that do significant damage, too.

Deathward > deathblock. I run without deathblock all the time and never notice a difference. I notice immediately when I don't have death ward.

But death block does not give you death ward.

See the difference?

[Enoach]

Just to add to the SR discussion...

While I agree that the changes to SR did reduce the amount of SR available, and do feel that the part of the formula that was not fixed was the fact that Mobs have "caster levels" that far exceed what should be possible at EPIC/LEGENDARY levels.

But again, SR 17 at low levels, while not 100% is a significant boost to protection vs those spells. This can be seen more with characters that have low Will Saves early on especially in quests like Proof is in the Poison where the casters spam hypnotism.

So in heroic content you can still get a reasonable SR without a deep sacrifice.

At much higher levels I believe based on the math you are looking at maybe 20% protection if you gear towards it, unless you are running a class that has better access to stacking bonuses.

For non-gearing but use of UMD the Divine Scrolls for both single and AoE buffs are vendor purchases, these give 12 + your caster level (minimum caster level needed when from scroll)

1. Single CL = 9 so SR 21
2. AoE CL = 13 so SR 25


Another thing to keep in mind is SR works like layering Physical Defense like AC, Concealment, Incorporeal and Dodge

So for spells that have a Spell Penetration check you would first get your SR chance to not be effected and then your save roll. This means that even a 20% chance to not be effected by the spell coupled with a 20% chance to save vs the spell getting +13% chance of not being effected by the spell may be easier to achieve then raising your save by 3 points

[SpiritofAlba]

Belated thanks for the useful words of wisdom (plus a bit of bonus debate thrown in!). I learnt some, and PBs list particularly useful. I knew what defenses did what, but the order of priority is really enlightening. Won't go dungeoneering without checking my shield spell in future.