Why is there a PvP section if there is no PvP?

[Proton]

Why is there a PvP section if there is no PvP?

"Oh but there is PvP" someone says.

While it is possible, whatever appeal it had was lost, as another player noted, when reaper and racials where added. It was already suffering from epics being added (I like epics, but it did hurt PvP), but reaper and racials (RnR) reduced it to what it is now.

Why is there any PvP in the first place if its going to be left in a meaningless, pointless state? Why have a section to talk about something that there is no intention of ever changing?

I would like to hear it from the developers, and not some player, that there is no intention of ever providing a PvP pass that will restore meaning and fun to PvP. I have heard this claim many times from players, but will disregard all player comments about this topic as irrelevant to what the developers have to say directly about it themselves.

So my real question is for the developers, is there any plans for PvP at all in the future, or have PvP hating players stolen the narrative and managed to influence you against it, or did you simply never like it in the first place? Listening to other players talk like they are the developers and that they have psychic powers to know what is in the developer's mind is simply confusing, frustrating, and no longer admitted by myself.


Players please do not answer this: "What is the future of PvP in DDO?" It wont truly be answered unless it comes from some sort of real authority on the topic and not some self volunteering "representative" of the gaming community, that never accurately really represents the entire community anyways.


I ask the Developer's, "What is the future of PvP in DDO?"

[Proton]

I hope to find clarity on this topic, so I can rest my mind. It remains currently unsettled, as here is this section, and in game it is possible. It gives the appearance that there is some point to it, but then is there? So the appearance is a bit confusing and unsettling when so many players have said its dead or it never was a thing, or never meant to be a thing, but no developer's have ever stated this, and I am tired of players attempting to represent people like myself with such statements, preferring instead to just know what is the future of PvP directly from the makers themselves. It would be much easier to brush thoughts of seeing DDO with a good PvP system that is fun to play if I could hear it from the developers that they will never revive it, never plan to, and therefore there is no real point in thinking about it.

This forum section is then like bait for a dead thing isn't it? And the PvP in game kinda adds to that inkling idea from someone who likes PvP, as other posters have posted and obviously do like PvP, that perhaps PvP is suppose to be part of the game, but just hasn't been caught up with yet. Between these two things it is either misleading us into believing that PvP has a future, or it is actually the case the PvP has a future. PVE might not care, but PvPer's could definitely use some clarity at this point of the game's development. Thank you!

[Memnir]

If memory serves, this sub-section was created to have a PvP Sanctuary. A place to discuss PvP without the thread being overrun with naysayers and non-practitioners of PvP, as was common practice prior to the advent of the PvP sub-forum. If the thread was in the PvP section, then it was inappropriate and reportable to be overtly negative and argumentative against PvP as a whole. That's why you will often see comments like "checking forum header - not in PvP section - this is fair game" before somebody rips apart a PvP idea put into General Discussion or Suggestions. This was one of the more recent sub-forums to be added, relatively speaking.

The existence of the sub-forum is more of a moderation tool than anything else.


As for why is PvP in the game... at launch, it wasn't. The pits were added around Mod 2 or 3, because WoW had PvP and a lot of folks were clamoring for it to be added. "The game won't survive without it!" those people cried with gnashing teeth - so the Devs added the fighting areas adjoining the taverns. Later, they added the team-v-team system... which was pretty much (and has stayed) dead on arrival.

PvP was shoehorned into a game that was never really designed for it (as the Devs said more than once during the closed Beta in '05 to explain it's lack). It was the first of many many systems added and subsequently abandoned by the Devs since then. PvP is just not a good fit for the way DDO was designed at it's base layer - at least not without further shoehorning and tweaks that would be superfluous, or potentially harmful, for the vast majority of the player base who ignore PvP.

[SardaofChaos]

It may be of interest to you that the last time PvP was mentioned in release notes was Update 22, in June of 2014, when they allowed level 21+ characters to enter capture the flag and death match. This was 2 years after the level cap was increased from 20. Before that, in April of 2011 they made Power Word: Kill less useful in PvP. In June of 2010 they fixed a graphical error with using Implosion in PvP, and a mechanical issue with Prismatic Spray in PvP. In February of 2010, they made some other graphical changes to spells in PvP. Finally, way back in August of 2009 when the game went free, they added the ability to challenge another party to a PvP match without having to go to the arena first.

*Note that I only checked the main release notes for each update, and not the hotfix/patch notes, because nothing of import would be in those without also having something in the main notes. It turns out nothing of import was in the main notes either, as you can see.

To answer your question, there is a PvP section because, despite the lack of a large audience for it, there is in fact PvP, so stop being facetious. You're not going to get an answer saying that they're never going to work on it, and it's highly unlikely that anything is indeed in the works given everything going on, so more likely than not you're just not going to get a dev response at all. It should mean something to you that the other thread you posted in was closed (for being a necro) without any actual comment.

[Proton]

Ah, I see there is capture the flag and death match modes. These are some of the most fun PvP there is, but they are not convenient and that is part of the problem. I'm a huge PvP fan, and the games with good PvP systems don't have you running around begging stranger to join your matches, they operate on random queues that set up random teams... oh its sooooo much fun adapting to a group of morons or getting a group of vets, either you get to totally smash the other team (unless they are also a bunch of vets) or you get to try and save the day (being the only vet on your team).

So, then the happy good news that Im hearing now is that there is indeed PvP, and a good chance it will get some attention if it has some kind of spot light where meaningful discussion about it can take place without anyone attempting to derail or destroy the topic. This is encouraging.

PvP is dead though, there are 2 massive problems holding it back more then anything. It gives no experience, which is understandable in its current format, as it could too easily be abused as it is now. But in a game that has a 5 year grind for the average player, adding experience to something like PvP would be a massive asset. Also, there is no random queue, this is a problem, PvPers don't ask "want to fight?". Its akward and already makes the fight less interesting to them. They enter a queue, something like a bottom that says fight, or maybe a npc that takes them to queue. Once in queue they wait, queues never take long to fill giving there is both fun and reward involved. Make it a waste of time, and it will be treated like a waste of time. No experience equals no PvP. So when I say here isn't PvP, you may argue that there is, but good PvP is active and easy to get matches and getting somewhere at the same time (reward), while dead PvP is chasing people around, and getting nothing for it.



So, then fixing PvP would be super easy. WoW, what's stopping them? All they got to do is add a queue that randomizes the teams, making them form unpredictable teams, that have players aiming to win because they will get more experience if they do, but still giving them a participation small amount if they lose. This is the normal set up for PvP that becomes much more involving, and active. The Queue and the Reward are of the utmost importance. How hard would that be to add? A queue that sets up random teams and a reward for the winners. While it would then be possible to get to level 30 like this, which is no big deal in this game with 150 past lives now, it would not get the gear... they will need to go into the dangerous quests for those.


So, PvP is alive, its just seriously broken because its not fun to do, a waste of time, and there is no incentive, and to make it worse... you got to chase strangers around "wanna fight wanna fight" which might not be something your comfortable with, whereas a queue alleviates such a dull and often discouraging process (like when a lot say no or even something rude cuz you asked). It is possible to put lfms up, and leave it at that, but setting up teams involves a lot of needless talking and coordinating still, and 1 on 1 in the pit is too uncoordinated to justify any kind of experience reward attached, fast paced (team matches tend to take longer and have far better dynamics), and I can see why it doesn't and shouldn't give experience points to winner. But a good queue that randomizes teams, has a good 5 or 10 minute match, where they invest time and try to win, would require some exp reward to make its queue fill non stop and basically fuel its engine. Without that, the PvP simply won't get its engine going. Once that engine gets going, it heats up, and PvP goes from being a dead scene into something you can expect anytime of the day.

PvP when active is almost always 24/7 when its players are both having fun and getting ahead. When I play PvP, I play for reward or its really not PvP to me. So, we have "PvP" but its being held back due to lack of queue and reward.

Fixing PvP just got super easy, didn't it? Adding a queue and reward, that is not even an update, it is a on the side thing, that could be added to the next update, and funniest part is, it would end up really being the biggest part of the update, enriching the game and its content by enabling PvP to capture PvPers by giving them what they expect for their time, reward without rigging.


Wow, that's it.

[SardaofChaos]

Wait, are you saying you've been complaining about the lack of work put into PvP for the better part of a year without even stepping into the PvP section to find out that there are modes other than free for all?

[cdbd3rd]

If memory serves, this sub-section was created to have a PvP Sanctuary. A place to discuss PvP without the thread being overrun with naysayers and non-practitioners of PvP, as was common practice prior to the advent of the PvP sub-forum. If the thread was in the PvP section, then it was inappropriate and reportable to be overtly negative and argumentative against PvP as a whole. That's why you will often see comments like "checking forum header - not in PvP section - this is fair game" before somebody rips apart a PvP idea put into General Discussion or Suggestions. This was one of the more recent sub-forums to be added, relatively speaking. ....

Exactly.

[Loromir]

The only change to PVP that I would advocate making would be to multiply the characters HP's by 1,000 at the point of dropping into the arena, and then returning to normal upon exit. This would end one shotting. Low level players could beat on each other for several minutes before dying.

I agree if it were more convenient and with some form of reward system....it would be more utilized. But whether or not it SHOULD be more utilized...I have no opinion.

[Proton]

The only change to PVP that I would advocate making would be to multiply the characters HP's by 1,000 at the point of dropping into the arena, and then returning to normal upon exit. This would end one shotting. Low level players could beat on each other for several minutes before dying.

I agree if it were more convenient and with some form of reward system....it would be more utilized. But whether or not it SHOULD be more utilized...I have no opinion.

Edit: One of the most successful PvPs I know of, War Robots (24/7 queues always active) gives robots around 200,000 hps and some have shields that double this, it can get up to 600,000 on the right bot with the right shield. Still, with 600,000 hps that bot can get killed in 1 to 2 seconds if it stands in the wrong spot, and gets a bit too much attention. And if its making problems for its enemies, it is likely going to get that much attention and will need to stay behind cover or die. The robots all die super fast if they stand out in the open. The matches still take 5 to 10 minutes, are intense, involved, and extremely fun to play. I don't think they would need to ajust HPs, I can see it serving in the pit, which is a mess anyways really, but it is very easy with team matches and flags and such to have a long lasting match even though your toon can get smashed in a second. A lot of shoot em up games are just like that... pop pop there go your brains, and yet, they make these games work, and are able to set up team matches that are not over the second your brains get splattered. Usually involves a timer, a kill count, or some other mechanism so the matches last longer. Try a shoot em up game to see how it would work having a team PvP set up where you could still die in 1 hit, but the matches by their nature still end up being 5 to 10 minutes long regardless. Very doable!


First thing I'd like to say, I am SO happy there is this sub section and a place where dissers to PvP are not welcome. If any naysayers come and attempt to derail I will immediately report their interference and attempt to get rid of them. PvP is a serious topic for me, it really is a sleeping giant that could be far more successful.

What has failed is the model. What is that? No reward.

I am about to go to work. I get time off whenever I want. No one regulates me but me. While working I have many computers around me. One might have a game running that sits idle. Then when I want to give my brain a rest, there it is. Its good for 30 minutes, 1 hour is pushing it. This is too little time to even begin to remotely consider a quick quest, but not some PvP fights. They are quick and lots of fun.


But where do I go for PvP fights?

DDO?

(Laughs for hours at that idea)

No way, even though I want to have some fun during my break, I am a hard core business man and PvPer, we don't waste time like that. I play a game that I know my time is being rewarded for that period. DDO is a waste of time for PvP. I recall seeing capture that flag now that I search my memory, but never got to run it once in DDO, as no group ever mentioned it, I never figured I'd begin to waste my time chasing players down for it because I HATE doing stuff like that, and with no reward it was easily forgotten and left in darkest regions of my memory. It is currently so trivialized its easy to forget.




PvP is about winning for reward, not just wasting time. Any PvP games out there where you just fight to waste time? No, if they made them like that people would go play the ones where you are not wasting your time instead. Would I play war robots if I couldn't win gold, keys, honor, and experience points? The game would never have been installed in my computer in the first place if that was the case.



Do I want to play PvP in DDO as it is now? No, it is boring now to do something that says to me my precious time is not being honored or valued.


Fun as a reward is not as much fun as a reward for fun!!!


I would immediately say DDO PvP is fun if it was. I would be doing it if it was. I would be telling others about it if it was.


It takes the average player around 5 years to get all PLs. The grind is so ridiculously long that it completely justifies setting up team queues and fighting for experience points. I guess I could start a new thread to go over these models, but it will help to get a better look at what there already is. I am not too acquinted with it because I have never been interested in going around asking people if they want to waste time for "fun" (like I said, wasting time is not fun for me). I feel like a jerk loser chasing people around to have them waste time with me, so I never even pondered doing so a single time in the more then 10 years I've been playing this game. The closest I ever came was an lfm in the pit, but that got boring because there was no reward, no queue, no organization, no objective like capture the flag, no teams... that isn't PvP even though it allows players to fight players. Any PvP player who is serious about PvP would point out the pit is not good for PvP.


So I am about to go to work now. I have to put playing and fun to the side and get large chunks of work done. When I get tired and hungry and its time for a break, I will play a bit to ease my mind. Something quick and fun. Some PvP matches in a good game, should I decide to play at all instead of something else. On weekends or evenings I can afford more time, thus these are better times for having some adventures in DDO.


Also, let us suppose I decide to PvP my way to level 30. It would and should probably take longer this way, but should be possible. There are 150 PLs at least, so it is really 1/150th of the way, thus it is no big deal to grind PvP matches for level ups if they calculate a rate that is reasonable, but nothing? No wonder PvP is so dead and no one is doing it except some little private group or some failed event that doesn't even capture my interest because I already know its come and go transient nature.

Players got alts. This only means more grinding. PvP is super fun. It can turn that grind into a lot of fun. Quests and adventures as another option, but for PvPers, it is not the main option, will still end up getting PvPers to run quests to get gear for PvP. So if you got 10 alts, and there is 150 PLs, that is 1500 lives of grind. It is for some reason just way out of reach, but with PvP, where you stay in the same place, hit fight, get sent to queue location, start up a random match (even the match ups are best random, so you don't know if its capture the flag or death match, thus you have to adapt more), spend 5 to 10 minutes fighting with your team against another team; it will help a lot in getting alts caught up, as PVP match can be so consistent and so much fun when set up right that you don't even realize how much your getting ahead until you stop and realize you capped.

PvP is a great way to set up a highway that would help new players to have more fun options as many people I know demand PvP and won't play a game that doesn't have a good PvP, so more styles appeal to a broader audience. It would help new players to catch up to vets. It would help alt collectors to get their alts caught up to their main, it might even make getting alts caught up a possibility. It would certainly help make alt playing far more fun and interesting. PvP games that involve character specialization always tend to end up with lots of alts... PvPers like these things. In War Robots, I use different robots, they are all OP, and if you stand in the wrong place for 1 second (or a 1 2 3 count) boom boom boom boom boom boom, the enemy team is all aiming at you and you die in 1 second. And still the fights last 5 to 10 minutes.

In War Robots you get a hangar with 5 robots. 5 chances at victory. Lose all 5 and you are out of the fight. This wouldn't be so easy in DDO, as a team of players each having 5 of their characters loaded and ready... it's more programming, and difficult to pull off in this game, not impossible and would be great fun if done, but a quick easy fix around that is to give 5 lives to a single toon or have kills add up to points and team with most points wins, or in capture the flags case, death just sends you back to the starting point, and now you got to run to the flag, but so long as its not your flag, its contributing to your timer running out faster. Just fighting to defend those flag posts, or running around setting them back to your team adds a lot of strategy and fun.


No system they ever work out will get my interest if there is no reward. As long as I see there is no reward, it is automatically registered as a waste of my precious time and therefore identified as a dull boring experience I will not want to participate in doing.

All sorts of systems, even lousy ones, will capture my interest the moment I see there is something to fight for, a reward! It can make a bad set up still worth while if not a good one a big hit success!

I better get to directing, much to do.

[Memnir]

The only reward for PvP should be something in the cosmetic category. I'd be fine with unique armor, cloaks, pets, etc. that can only be gleaned from PvP.

No other PvP loot or XP or reward. Ever.

[Krelar]

The only reward for PvP should be something in the cosmetic category. I'd be fine with unique armor, cloaks, pets, etc. that can only be gleaned from PvP.

No other PvP loot or XP or reward. Ever.

/signed

The lack of any meaningful PVP is actually what attracted me to DDO in the first place and is part of what has kept me here. I occasionally try other MMO's and PVP is one of the major reasons I end up leaving them.

[Proton]

/signed

The lack of any meaningful PVP is actually what attracted me to DDO in the first place and is part of what has kept me here. I occasionally try other MMO's and PVP is one of the major reasons I end up leaving them.

So you come to PvP section to ask that it remains dead and meaningless to suit you own personal preference? As long as PvP is meaningless, it won't be fun, it won't be worthwhile, it won't be taken seriously by people who like it, it won't generate money, it won't add to population, it won't even be worth talking about.

I think you are in the wrong place to be asking that PvP remain dead to suit your own preference. It was just explained this is not the place for people to discuss suppression of PvP development. I would like to keep it that way. If there are any thoughts that would truly help to develop PvP and turn it into a rewarding experience, this is the section for such discussion.

I've heard this only a few times, but it comes to me as a rather selfish thing to say. If they added PvP you would not be forced to participate. But what you are asking forces PvPers to go somewhere else to play a meaningful PvP and denies them that option in this game, and a lot of PvPers like DDO and would love to see it with a good PvP system worth playing and that is meaningful, thus lots of fun and worth it.

Menmir at least says fight for cosmetics. It would add a tiny bit to PvP, but that might spark it up a lot even. I might fight for em, depends on the cosmetics and the grind involved. But I already run quests and do PVE just as much, whereas there are a lot of PvPers that would find fighting for just cosmetics is not enough to keep their interest. It probably wouldn't get the engine started that way, but it would pick up some.



If PvP doesn't play into the long progression of the toon's development somehow, it will never pick up or become truly meaningful, or worth doing. Experience points for a queued fight makes the most sense to me. 10 minutes of time is not something to treat lightly. Having Pvp not give experience is the very thing that is killing it most of all.

So really Menmir's statement amounts to "make it look alive, but don't let it live" whereas yours appears "I don't play this game because I like how it is, I play it because there is no meaningful PvP, and I will quit if they ever change that". It would be great to see those words tested because they did turn PvP into a meaningful experience, I doubt I would miss anyone who attempts to hijack the game's development with "my way or I quit" comments.

Seriously, there are so many things I'd change, and the game is not my way, but I have fun, I don't say "my way or else", there is no PvP right now, I still play and have fun with PVE, and I can say the exact opposite, that when checking out other games, if they lack any PvP I lose interest because every game with a good PvP I ever played was more fun then if it would not have had PvP, and the better the PvP set up the better the game ends up being from this.

I will continue to petition for a meaningful PvP system on behalf of PvPers like myself, because there are more of us PvPers playing games then pure PVEers, though I do both so I'm a renegade rogue :P


If you quit then you quit, I don't know you, but I know a lot of new players would arrive to enjoy PvP, old ones would return to enjoy PvP, and it would add to the enjoyment of this game for more people then it would dissappoint like yourself, who chooses to be dissappointed and doesn't have to choose even participating in PvP at all, you can keep on grouping up and questing to get the exact same experience points, even faster though, and with treasure!!! But that isn't enough? How dare they get some experience points for winning a random match they tried their best at, and have any fun at the same time??? Why the need to control others fun? If they get to level 30 grinding PvP matches, it isn't going to change anything for you that you kept on doing it by questing. Lfms will be more available then ever before, PvPers will go hit quests to get better gear for their PvP fights, they won't demand you come PvP them, it won't create imbalances in the game.


Experience points and leveling has to be part of the process of a PvP system that is meaningful to PvP players or they will never consider it a PvP worth trying even.


I'm gonna run some tests on those flag and deathmatches before carefully and thoughtfully putting together a thread to make PvP into a meaningful and fun experience for PvPers, aimed at keeping such a task to the bare minimum, as it appears a lot of things are already set up and it only needs a queue and reward attached to these things.


This is the place for talking about PvP development, I will take advantage of it and am grateful for it. I don't care if you don't like PvP, I do like PvP, I don't like feeling like this game is hijacked by comments like the one I am currently responding to, and think it is childish to try to prevent PvPers from enjoying PvP because you don't. You come /sign keep it meaningless, making your intention clear. I hope you can reconsider your position on the topic, and that you understand as a PvP fan, I am going to fully defend PvP and aim to see it develop into a meaningful experience that enriches the game for a lot of people, while seeking to keep such solutions to the extreme most minimum amount of development time possible instead of some grand scheme that turns into a costly risky process.

Nothing personal, I'm very automated and direct.

[psykopeta]

There's a cathegory for pvp even if it's dead.... For the same reason there's a suggestion cathegory that are ignored or even lammania threads which feedback is ignored

I would say it's becausthat's expected to have their cathegory, it doesn't mean the feedback must be read nor applied

[SardaofChaos]

Honest question for you, Proton. Why are you campaigning so hard for PvP in this game in particular? Why, when it has seen no significant development in nearly 10 years? And especially, why are you arguing so hard without having apparently even stepped foot inside a PvP area? And don't say anything about it being a guaranteed way to make more profit - the only reason so many PvP modes have seen action recently is because Battle Royale is the current flavor of the month. We're already past the point of saturation.

[Proton]

There's a cathegory for pvp even if it's dead.... For the same reason there's a suggestion cathegory that are ignored or even lammania threads which feedback is ignored

I would say it's becausthat's expected to have their cathegory, it doesn't mean the feedback must be read nor applied

The developers are not ignoring their players, pretty obvious if you have been following the game for 10 years. Players ask for changes, get the changes, then complain about them and ask for more changes and often blame the developers for doing things they asked for. Its funny, but as the developers do add and adjust what is within reach to manage, the game has gotten a lot better in many ways, offering more to do now then back in 2006.

So, I will treat this section seriously, and assume what you are saying is not true. Cordovan locked the PvP thread because it was a necro and in the wrong place. This is a recent topic and in the right place, so I doubt it would go necro any time soon. Still, it seems PvP haters feel the need to cross the line and come here with their annoying propaganda about how PvP must never be a thing.

As it was explained, the sub section is so this doesn't happen, and seeks to discourage it obviously. PvP gamers have a place they can talk in DDO, and have been discouraged perhaps in the past by such things. I won't be discouraged, I won'y be lead about, I won't be emotionally trolled, I won't flinch and twitch a muscle, as I engage in this topic I am passionate about, being a fan of PvP games. I am beginning to digress from other things now though, so I'll pause, later on check out those team matches, and then meditate on the easiest solution there is to make PvP something PvPers like doing in DDO.

If I was making a game and had a forums, I would be paying attention to what is there and my gut feeling tells me that is what is happening here, whether we know it or not.

[Krelar]

So you come to PvP section to ask that it remains dead and meaningless to suit you own personal preference? As long as PvP is meaningless, it won't be fun, it won't be worthwhile, it won't be taken seriously by people who like it, it won't generate money, it won't add to population, it won't even be worth talking about.

I didn't come to any particular section. When I come to the forums I hit "New Posts" and read any posts that look like they might be interesting. I don't usually pay attention to what section they are in. I saw a post I agreed with and responded to it.

I've heard this only a few times, but it comes to me as a rather selfish thing to say. If they added PvP you would not be forced to participate. But what you are asking forces PvPers to go somewhere else to play a meaningful PvP and denies them that option in this game, and a lot of PvPers like DDO and would love to see it with a good PvP system worth playing and that is meaningful, thus lots of fun and worth it.

That's exactly why I've left some other games, the PVP became almost mandatory at some point. I'm not against PVP per se, I'm against PVP that ends up being a heavy focus or almost mandatory to progress your character. If they come up with a way that doesn't make it feel like a necessary way to advance my character in a reasonable time frame and it doesn't significantly affect PVE development I don't have a problem with it.

So really Menmir's statement amounts to "make it look alive, but don't let it live" whereas yours appears "I don't play this game because I like how it is, I play it because there is no meaningful PvP, and I will quit if they ever change that". It would be great to see those words tested because they did turn PvP into a meaningful experience, I doubt I would miss anyone who attempts to hijack the game's development with "my way or I quit" comments.

Seriously, there are so many things I'd change, and the game is not my way, but I have fun, I don't say "my way or else", there is no PvP right now, I still play and have fun with PVE, and I can say the exact opposite, that when checking out other games, if they lack any PvP I lose interest because every game with a good PvP I ever played was more fun then if it would not have had PvP, and the better the PvP set up the better the game ends up being from this.

I'm not sure where you're are getting that I will quit or that it's my way or else. I only expressed my concern because I've ended up leaving other games in the past. I'd have to see how things actually worked, but I'm not overly confident based on prior experiences.

Experience points and leveling has to be part of the process of a PvP system that is meaningful to PvP players or they will never consider it a PvP worth trying even.

As long as it's not more efficient than leveling in PVE that doesn't bother me. It might be hard to do in a way that's not exploitable.

[Proton]

Honest question for you, Proton. Why are you campaigning so hard for PvP in this game in particular? Why, when it has seen no significant development in nearly 10 years? And especially, why are you arguing so hard without having apparently even stepped foot inside a PvP area?

I have done the pit, and way back a few 1 on 1 matches in the arena instant it takes you to. I never ran a death match or flag fight with teams, never was asked, its as if most players don't know or don't even consider it as it is, nor have I for so long. I have always wanted to see a good PvP system in the game, and just kept waiting hoping it would happen eventually. But after 10 years its worse now then it was before, when you could find players wasting time in the pit. I never got into pit fighting PvP matches for nothing, doing it a bit here and there. Most players never took PvP like that serious anyways, but some did, though without any reward and with PLs stacking up, wasting time in the pit got even worse for those players and now where are they?

Why campaign for PvP so hard? Its so much fun and this game would be far better with a good system then the meaningless and unrewarding system it has now. I play PvP games, I know how they work, and some of the cheesy tactics their producers use to maximize profits, and would not want to see that here. That all begins when gear becomes PvP only and comes from PvP, two things I would not want to see happen. But, I already find it easy to waste hour after hour running PvP matches in other games that are not as good with their combat mechanics, there is nothing wrong with this game's balance even, its just a matter of how matches are set up and reward. There are so many 24/7 PvP games out there its mind blowing... DDO used to be a 24/7 active game either in its meaningless waste of time PvP or PVE, now neither nor is 24/7.

I'll push hard for a little change that requires very little programming to do. Adding a queue that randomizes players, and rewarding exp based on level total of team fought against, while giving 10% of that exp to losers (5 to 10 minutes is a lot of time in PvP world) is all it needs. The arenas are already there it sounds like, been so long I need to go back and check. The death matches, the flags battles, already there. So there is barely anything to do. With such a small move it seems right to point out how little effort it would take to fix this and turn it into a successful part of the game's appeal to an overall larger audience then not, as PvP games have for the last 2 decades proven themselves.

So I haven't done much PvP in DDO, but a lot of PvP in a lot of other games, and seen some really good set ups. I know how much fun they can be, but that isn't happening here where the mechanics, the environment is actually perfect for it, but without a reward or a convenient way to get matches set up (random- no talking, no asking, no sorting - all automatically sorted by queue) its too much effort for nothing at all in the end.

So now I am beginning to more and more get PvP elsewhere more now then ever. I'd rather be doing it here then elsewhere. As long as it remains a meaningless unrewarding waste of time that will never happen, no matter what. 10 years is a long time to wait. Its time to talk about what I have desired for so long and stop waiting any longer, seeing there is a section for me to express that.

[Proton]

I didn't come to any particular section. When I come to the forums I hit "New Posts" and read any posts that look like they might be interesting. I don't usually pay attention to what section they are in. I saw a post I agreed with and responded to it.



That's exactly why I've left some other games, the PVP became almost mandatory at some point. I'm not against PVP per se, I'm against PVP that ends up being a heavy focus or almost mandatory to progress your character. If they come up with a way that doesn't make it feel like a necessary way to advance my character in a reasonable time frame and it doesn't significantly affect PVE development I don't have a problem with it.



I'm not sure where you're are getting that I will quit or that it's my way or else. I only expressed my concern because I've ended up leaving other games in the past. I'd have to see how things actually worked, but I'm not overly confident based on prior experiences.



As long as it's not more efficient than leveling in PVE that doesn't bother me. It might be hard to do in a way that's not exploitable.

Awesome! So you are saying something I would agree with, that it should not be exploitable and it should not be a mandatory thing or part of development. It also makes sense that grinding PvP for levels would be slower then running fast quests on normal, and less rewarding without any loot. PvP players would grab crappy gear, jump in there, get to cap, eventually get frustrated with their under level gear, and be forced to go do a quest to upgrade. This can be done in a way that would not hurt PVE one bit, and for me, that is the only way it should be done. I am very glad to hear!

Add, they should also earn a bit of coin and have Auction House options to gear up, it isn't really much, but items will sell faster, the economy might function better as a result, and it helps them not forced to PVE either, which they would still end up doing for those better items you never see in auction house.

The benefit of such an add would be having a queue that takes you to an interesting and unique situation. You do not know who your fellow members will be, nor your enemies. What are their strengths and weaknesses, have fast do they adapt, or coordinate their team efforts? What tricks do they have up their sleeves and how to get around those. Arcane archers will mow you down out in the open, so PvP fast teaches things like using cover more efficiently. If matches with far less diverse options for team ups can be so much fun, having a queue you can jump in and grab some exp while having some fun would be a huge asset. While lfms would be more abundant, it would be less likely that a PVE would even bother with any PvP with more available lfms full of PvPers trying to gear up in quests about. One of the biggest parts of the fun is that you are not fighting AI.


Ok, I will check out those scenes now in a bit and then aim for the easiest, fastest, simplest fix I can think of, since it sounds like this can be done in a way that will be good for everyone, as long as we keep it in check and don't let it turn into the failed models we've seen in other places. Glad to hear that you, like myself, want to protect the PVE and never see PvP become mandatory for toon development, but instead just something that helps that development without really changing it, nor without undermining it by offering a faster path. A small reward adds up when having lots of fun, and though it ought not give exp as fast as quests, it can easily end up seeming faster (even when its twice as slow) when your having so much fun.

[SardaofChaos]

So the gist is that you enjoy this game's combat mechanics in particular, and would prefer pvp to have more players so you can actually get a team going? Fair enough.

For my part, I would be fine with pvp improvements as long as they met the following:

* Did not take away significant dev time from pve content
* Did not reward anything exclusive other than cosmetics or items that are only relevant in pvp

Adding a random queue system would likely be the most efficient means of improving participation without expending too much time. However, neither you nor I can speculate on how easy it would actually be.

Adding xp as a reward would be very tricky to get right, as it shouldn't be faster than a reasonable leveling pace (note that this is not even anywhere close to the pace many vets go, don't worry). It would also need to not be abusable. The best I can think of at the moment would be to have the amount of xp tied to your participation (somehow) but also make matches last a set amount of time so they can't be spammed.

[Proton]

So the gist is that you enjoy this game's combat mechanics in particular, and would prefer pvp to have more players so you can actually get a team going? Fair enough.

For my part, I would be fine with pvp improvements as long as they met the following:

* Did not take away significant dev time from pve content
* Did not reward anything exclusive other than cosmetics or items that are only relevant in pvp

Adding a random queue system would likely be the most efficient means of improving participation without expending too much time. However, neither you nor I can speculate on how easy it would actually be.

Adding xp as a reward would be very tricky to get right, as it shouldn't be faster than a reasonable leveling pace (note that this is not even anywhere close to the pace many vets go, don't worry). It would also need to not be abusable. The best I can think of at the moment would be to have the amount of xp tied to your participation (somehow) but also make matches last a set amount of time so they can't be spammed.

So I just got done looking at PvP in game, talking to Law, going to pit, checking challenge options to other players. Things I have not considered doing for so long and even as I looked at them now, must say as much fun as it looks like, getting a party together is impossible how it is now. It needs to consolidate the queue, and simply force randomized matches with a set time that is shorter, like 5 or 10 minutes. Right now there are way too many queue options to divide queues into sub queues that make it far far harder to just jump in and go.

Some of these arena's I have never ever seen. Ohhhhh its frustrating, I decided to youtube what a good DDO PvP might look like. Its got so much all there, its just missing the convenience of fast fight finding and some reward about it. I am still gonna look for those other arenas I haven't even seen yet, what a sad loss of such a fun looking way to play. The music is good, the arenas that I remember and saw are fairly well sized, but no one bothers to look for the queues, its empty barren, and like I said, going around trying to get people to do something for nothing is exhausting and too overwhelming to consider. Here is the first vid I see of the fun I am missing out on, that is super taxing to arrange, and that could be giving experience points, making it something for all my alts to do in between quests and gearing, while having capital F.U.N. fun:



(Ninja throwers, either you deal with them fast, or they deal with you... now if they have say 5 or so lives, it would change the dynamics a lot, as this guy who is rocking in PvP would become a prime target for elimination from the team he is cutting down. Give him infinite lives and everyone is just gonna try to avoid him, instead of eliminate what can't be eliminated... I'll start a new thread aimed at putting life into PvP as smooth and thoughtfully as possible, because I am also a huge PVE player and that is a very important part of the game to me as it is to so many others. Enjoy the vid, man it looks like fun!)