First Look: U41 New Spells & Spell Changes

[redoubt]

Hello!

Upgraded Spells
We’re upgrading the player versions of several damage spells, as outlined below. The Max Caster Level of these spells will remain unchanged, and Monsters will continue casting the existing versions of the spells (so that we don’t get a sudden spike in enemy caster damage).

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Are you still looking at MCL? I think leaving the MCL of the spells alone is the right way to go for the spells themselves.

HOWEVER!!!!

I think that providing more ways to increase CL and MCL are going to be needed. Heroic is generally okay, but epic is lacking. By adding more CL & MCL in the savant trees, Draconic Incarnation and Epic levels themselves, you give a small boost to all casters and a worthy boost to the ones who truly specialize in dps spells.

Thanks for reading.

[Pilgrim1]

One change I'd like to see is the L5 arcane DOTs behave a bit more like arcane pulse.

A problem I've always had with Biting Cold and Electric Surge is they are way too easy to drop if you get distracted and miss the short recast window. What I would prefer to see is stacks take longer to decay and for them to decrement rather than just disappear.

Thanks.

THIS!!!

Also if they stacked 5 times like arcane pulse that would be great.


In addition these new spell dice will cause some masive imbalance’s in heroic, especialy late game heroic content while having modest effects in end game content.

Possible Solutions:
* What would significantly improve end game caster DPS without punishing heroic content would be to add in caster levels AND max caster levels to most spells for each epic level a player gets (not all because most healing spells are well located). * Changing the master of .... lvl 24 feets to give a flat +5 CL and +5 MCL to all arcain/divine/primal spells would be a good option as well. You could thoreticly have this feet be something that could be selected multiple times so you could pick it up again at 27 and/or 30.
* Change how hell ball works. This sould be changed regardless because now its a functionaly trash spell since your gonna see a lvl 13 spell out-perform it in every way. Also add additional spells/feets to the epic and epic destiny options.

[Vanhooger]

I'm sorry dev's, this change won't do anything to people like me who want to play a DPS caster in high reaper content.

Will only effect Heroic content in witch casters were already good.

Not upgrading dot, is also big mistake, as it's a big part of DPS caster kit when dealing with red named/orange/boss.

My2cent

[cpw_acc]

This is all interesting, but I would like to know the saves for the extra spells and the effect on save.

I have a water sorcerer, and I agree with the comment that Niac's cold ray certainly does a lot of damage at high level already. The problem is that it only does damage when it gets past the enemy saves. When they save, it does NO damage.

And this is a big issue at epics.

Playing quests at level, Hard difficulty tends to be fine and I reckon my DPS is enough to keep up with the melees and even the odd warlock.

But then I join a group doing Elite or Reaper and...I can barely get past enemy saves AT ALL (unless they roll a 1!). Niac's Cold Ray goes from cool damage (no pun intended) to NO damage.

Switching to higher-level (non-SLA) spells is my only recourse. At least then I do half damage when they save. Which is then reduced, of course, by resistances and MRR (which nearly all epics enemies have in abundance). So...great - I manage to do the odd 20 or 30 hp damage here and there, in a quest where even trash mobs have thousands of hit points!

People will probably say I just need to push my DCs up, but I have taken every CHA level-up and item bonus I can find, every feat and epic destiny I can to push up the DCs, and I literally can't find any other boost! Is this because it's expected that the only way to play a damage caster at epic elite+ difficulties is to have every super-duper raid item and a gazillion past lives??? (As a semi-casual player, I have neither).

[Silverleafeon]

NEW LEVEL 1 WIZ/SORC SPELLS

• Fire Bolt
• Freezing Bolt
• Acid Bolt
• Electric Bolt

(Fire Bolt is a real D&D spell - We've kept the naming convention over to the others to reflect their similar nature and make it easy to read.)


Each of these fires a single-target bolt that does 1d6+2 damage of the appropriate element per caster level, to a max caster level of 10. They cost 2SP each at their base and have a 4.5 second cooldown (3.5 on Sorcerers) shared among all four spells (so realistically, you can only use one right now). These exist in the Wizard and Sorcerer spellbooks, and can be taken at level up. Scrolls of these will be available at scroll shops.

There are a few goals with these spells:

• Provide a spammable low-level nuking spell for several arcane builds at a low SP cost
• Help low-level elemental/nuker casters have more options
• Help fill out long-range casting rotations (most of the low-level damage spells are touch range, and some characters aren't built to handle that without dying)

Suggest you make these spells behave normal like - not sharing cooldowns with each other.

This is not something that will be too powerful.

NEW LEVEL 9 WIZ/SORC SPELLS

• Iceberg
  
  • (3.5 book Frostburn)
  • Drop a big ol' iceball on your target
  • Single Target Evocation Spell: 1d6+27 per Caster Level, Reflex Save for Half Damage. Max Caster Level 20.
  • 40 Spell Points
  
  
• Acid Well
  
  • (This doesn't exist in a P&P source; it came directly from Player's Council feedback.)
  • Acid bursts forth from the ground in an area the size of Snowball Swarm.
  • Area Conjuration Spell: 1d6+18 per Caster Level. Fortitude Save for Half Damage. Max Caster Level 20.
  • 40 Spell Points
  
  
• Thunderstroke
  
  • (From 4th Ed Arcane Power page 37)
  • A big ol' lightning strike to a single target.
  • Single Target Evocation Spell: 1d6+27 per Caster Level, Reflex Save for Half Damage. Max Caster Level 20.
  • 40 Spell Points

Requesting an Fire single target spell like the Thunderstroke.
Yes I know we have Metorswarm, but the more level 9 spell options you give wizards and sorcerers, the better off they will be.

Really what can it hurt to add another high level spell that would be fairly easy to code, turn the yellow to red graphics, splash it a bit and ect…

[Silverleafeon]

People will probably say I just need to push my DCs up, but I have taken every CHA level-up and item bonus I can find, every feat and epic destiny I can to push up the DCs, and I literally can't find any other boost! Is this because it's expected that the only way to play a damage caster at epic elite+ difficulties is to have every super-duper raid item and a gazillion past lives??? (As a semi-casual player, I have neither).

Nah, good players will tell you End Game damage casters are not viable, and while all these changes are very good and helpful, its not enough to make end game dps spellcasting up to par...

Reaper has huge slant against casters favoring melee greatly in the damage reduction system, it is not equal.

Melee get more big toys and little resource cost to continue indefinitely, while spell damage wanes in epics compared to the monster hp spirals..


These changes are good, but we need more for Epics.

[Silverleafeon]

PS: betting that this thread will have half the replies of the Knight thread (as has trended in past caster & melee parallel threads

Tells me that interest in melee combat is 2 to 1 ratio over spellcasting?
Pugging see more dps melee than any other type most of the time?

We will see,

[Vanhooger]

PS: betting that this thread will have half the replies of the Knight thread (as has trended in past caster & melee parallel threads

Tells me that interest in melee combat is 2 to 1 ratio over spellcasting?
Pugging see more dps melee than any other type most of the time?

We will see,

I think it's normal. A caster need to be careful on how to use his resources (SP) while a melee keep mouse1 down.

[peng]

The spells that are improved generally follow all of these guidelines:

• They are Damage spells in the Wiz/Sorc spell book
• They do not confer extra effects (CC, etc)
• They do not have multiple projectiles that scale with caster level (Magic Missile, Frost Lance, etc)
• They are not persistent AOE spells (Cloudkill, etc)
• They are not DOT spells

...

Negative Energy Burst is now 1d6+4 per Caster Level.

Negative energy burst on lammania is still dealing 1d4+4 per 2 caster levels, same as live, instead of the new 1d6+4 per caster level. Also, its in-game description on lamma says it deals 5 to 10 per caster level, max 50 to 100. Then in the dice description, it says it deals 1d6+4 per *two* caster levels, max 5d6+40 (which is some sorta weird mishmash of the two).

Why weren't (other spells) included here?
Probably because they didn't meet the guidelines above. Or because changing it to these standards would have been a net reduction in damage (lookin' at you, Niac's Cold Ray). We're not setting out to up-push all damaging spells game-wide; we're looking to upgrade Wizard and Sorcerer nuker spells specifically.

Spells which meet those criteria but aren't on the list:

• disrupt undead
• shout
• disintegrate
• horrid wilting

All the spells added/changed except for polar ray and the new level 1 spells are save for half (meteor swarm is mostly save for half), but those 5 spells have no save.

Polar ray on live deals less damage per cast than black dragon bolt, and costs more (15 vs 20 sp), but deals all its damage at once. With the change to polar ray, it will deal 1d6+16 per caster level (1d3+3 per caster level on live) which far outpaces black dragon bolt (1d3 per caster level x3 ticks). At caster level 25, polar ray deals an average of 487.5 (125 on live) (24.375 damage per sp on lamma, 6.25 dmg per sp on live), while black dragon bolt deals an average of 150 (10 dmg per sp). That means the dot that's supposed to be slow and efficient, deals less than 1/3 the damage of polar ray.

The level 1 spells deal way more damage (55 damage on average at caster level 10) than magic missile (22.5 average dmg at caster level 9), and cost 2 sp vs 4. Melf deals an average of 60 dmg at caster level 10 (90 at cl 20), but costs 6 sp and takes 12 seconds to deal its full damage. Scorching ray deals 60 damage at cl 11 for 8 sp. The new spells are way more sp efficient.

Of the 4x3 sorcerer savant slas, 3 of the lvl 1s, 2 of the level 2s, and 3 of the level 3s are getting buffed (fire gets all 3 buffed, cold gets 1, acid and elec get 2). None of the archmage damage slas (magic missile, chill touch, chain missiles, fire shield, cloudkill, cyclonic blast) get a buff.

I agree with silverleafeon that metamagics should be cheaper and should scale. As is, most nuking spells have metas turned off unless they're slas. CC and instakill spells of lower level with heighten on, cost as much as higher level spells (ie circle of death, finger of death, phantasmal killer, wail of the banshee, web, resistible dance, hold person, hold monster, irresistible dance, disco ball, and mass hold monster all cost 50 sp heightened).

Epic destiny slas and epic spells should have DCs that scale better. Pale master slas need to be reworked. Savant t5 slas need to have their DCs scale better.

[Saekee]

why can’t enemy mobs use these spells? It seems the natural counter to powercreep.

Soon, the mobs will go on strike & just let us loot chests while they sit things out in some cavern breakroom.

[Zakharov]

I like the idea of balancing all the spells against each other, even following a sort of formula that adjusts dmg based on modifiers (spell range, type, other effects, etc). It looks like that’s the direction you’re heading but we should figure out the formula and how it affects all spells for all classes before buffing too much. Ideally we should balance spells with minimal buffing and rely on gear, feats, epic destinies, etc to fine tune damage output at higher levels.

However, if this is the formula we are using it should really be modified to affect all spells. So since wiz/sorc dmg spells matching your guidelines are now following these general rules:

Base dmg spell: 1d6+[spell lvl]/CL
Single Target Ray: 1d6+[spell lvl x 2]/CL

Lvl 9 base dmg spell: 1d6+[spell lvl x 2]/CL
Lvl 9 single target: 1d6+[spell lvl x 3]/CL

Then we should adjust other wiz/sorc spell types something like:

Base w/extra effect: 1d3+[spell lvl]/CL
Persistent AOE: 1d4/CL
DOT: 1d4/CL /tick

Lvl 9 base w/extra: 1d3+[spell lvl x 2]/CL
Lvl 9 pers AOE: 1d8/CL
Lvl 9 DOT: 1d8/CL /tick

Or something similar. Then you can adjust all non wiz/sorc spells at a step or two down from there as your high bar.


New spells:

• Lvl 1 Bolt Spells: These should be 1d6+0 per caster lvl and have a save for half.
  
  • The low SP cost essentially makes these 0 lvl cantrips, so 1d6+0 fits in with your scaling scheme and doesn’t overpower higher lvl spells as much.
  • All spells and abilities should require a save unless there is some other trade-off. Very long cooldown (Power Word Kill) or easily blocked (Magic Missile) are possible trade-offs. For these to stay no save the cooldown should increase or be blocked by Shield or some other drawback.
  
  
• Acid Well: Could do with a name change, maybe “Acid Geyser”?

Updating old spells- I assume there are some other adjustments coming in the future to other spells as suggested above, but even with just the guidelines given you are still missing a few:

• Niac’s Cold Ray: You mention updating this would be a net reduction, but not if you translated it the same way you translated other spells.
  
  • Acid Spray & Burning Hands: Weighted 1d4/CL -> 1d6+1/CL
  • Shocking Grasp: Weighted 1d6/CL -> 1d6+2/CL
  • Niac’s Cold Ray: Weighted 1d10/CL -> 1d10+2/CL (assumed translation)
  
  
• Prismatic Ray / Spray: The damage rays appear to qualify for upgrades based on the guidelines.
• Disintegrate: This should be the iconic single target ray damage spell. Using your formula it would probably translate to something like:
  
  • Weighted 2d6/CL -> 2d6+12/CL or higher. You could always revert it to 3.0 save or die style, but if so deathward should not protect against it.
  
  
• Horrid Wilting: This also appears to match all guidelines as instantaneous with no extra effects.

One other thing:

Monsters will continue casting the existing versions of the spells (so that we don’t get a sudden spike in enemy caster damage).

This is a worrisome strategy. Player vs monster power should be kept in sync as much as possible. If I can one shot a monster, they should be able to one shot me. I should have to out play them to avoid it, that’s the fun of the game!

[Aelonwy]

I suggest changing the name of Acid Well to Acid Gusher, Acid Blowout, or Acid Geyser.

A Gusher refers to the uncontrolled release of crude oil and/or natural gas from an oil well. Blowout is the modern name for the same event.

A Geyser refers to the uncontrolled release of water and steam through a surface vent from an underground source, caused my geothermal heating.

Edit: It turns out the largest acid water geyser in the world is called Echinus and located in Yellowstone National Park. I would go with Acid Geyser as that is a real, naturally occurring event.

I want to second this name change... Acid Well-->Acid Geyser. Its real and it sounds more impressive.

Anyone else feel Iceberg should have a single second knockdown? Like BLAM! How you like them Icebergs?!

[Enoach]

I think not buffing dot spells (specifically the acid dot spells) might be a mistake. Acid savants are already likely the worst savant right now, and this update just puts them further behind.

...

I would admit that I would like to have seen them modify the Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold and Black Dragon Bolt to have stacks that work like Arcane Pulse in that the timer removes one stack at a time instead of just canceling all stacks. Keeping the heroic spells to 3 stacks maximum.

[Enoach]

I did want to applaud the "start" of adding more spells to the game.

I do feel that part of the problem that DPS casters face is that there are a limited number of spell choices in the game. Many popular choices being not optimal all the time (worst possible save or damage type for the situation)

Now more spells won't cure all the ills but more spells will help casters be more optimal in much the same way a melee/range character can choose the best weapon/ammo for the situation.

---
I disagree that DPS casters are not viable in upper content. I've been a long time caster, many times discussing with other casters I've found that they are suffering from self-inflicted limitation, some in how they use their spell points and others in choosing the best spell(s) for the situation, and simply over-casting.

Now I will admit I have the benefit of experience with the Wizard class from D&D Basic and early days of casting in DDO where learning how to use SP effectively was paramount to being a good caster. So I've gained knowledge that is often overlooked by players.


Don't get me wrong, I like the direction they are going with upping spell damage and adding in a potential SP/Dmg increase with some new spells. But I also understand the difference between viable and optimal and find most times when people site "not viable" they really mean "not optimal".

[Rull]

I like it. Nice change.

[zyirius]

Can Ruin and Greater Ruin be looked over as well? If and when these changes go into effect the 8th and 9th level spells will do as much of not more damage than these spells at significantly less sp and not cost a feat. Please also keep in mind that it is much easier to get elemental spell power than force spell power

Ruin 75 sp 500 untyped Damage
Greater Ruin 150sp 1000 untyped Damage

Polar Ray 20sp best comparison since it also has no save. 1d6+16 Cold Damage per Caster Level,

at Lvl 30 and not Magister or Draconic or Water Savant (CL20) 20*3.5 + 20*16* = 390 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 not Magister or Draconic. Water Savant (CL 26) 26*3.5 +26*16 = 507 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 and Evocation Magister or Ice Draconic (CL 28) 28*3.5 +28*16 = 546 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 Evocation Magister or Ice Draconic and Water Savant (CL 34) 34*3.5 +34*16 = 663 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 Evocation Magister with Ice Draconic Knowledge Twist and Water Savant (CL 37) 37*3.5 +27*16 = 721.5 Cold Damage

As you can see only in the first case where the Wiz or Sor is not built for DPS does a single casting of Polar Ray does less damage than Ruin, with the exception of targets with extreme cold resistance or immunity. But at slightly over 1/4 the sp cost Polar will still be the better spell, unless the target is ice immune.

Please consider normalizing Ruin and Gtr Ruin damage and or sp cost along these new parameters.

[Hipparan]

I noticed several people mentioning Shout. I would like to see this spell boosted as well, but I think the reason it wasn't included was because of the damage type. Sonic isn't resisted by as many things as the elemental damage types. However, I think this is a moot point because Sorcerers in elemental form can bypass any resistance with their spells. I can't think of Shout being OP in any way if it was increased. However, it would probably bypass the damage of Greater Shout which sort of defeats the purpose.

I think it would be a good idea to change the damage of Greater Shout to be the same as an improved Shout. That way it would still be greater because it has the stun effect, but wouldn't be as high of damage as other level 8 spells.

[Steelstar]

Can Ruin and Greater Ruin be looked over as well? If and when these changes go into effect the 8th and 9th level spells will do as much of not more damage than these spells at significantly less sp and not cost a feat. Please also keep in mind that it is much easier to get elemental spell power than force spell power

Ruin 75 sp 500 untyped Damage
Greater Ruin 150sp 1000 untyped Damage

Polar Ray 20sp best comparison since it also has no save. 1d6+16 Cold Damage per Caster Level,

at Lvl 30 and not Magister or Draconic or Water Savant (CL20) 20*3.5 + 20*16* = 390 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 not Magister or Draconic. Water Savant (CL 26) 26*3.5 +26*16 = 507 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 and Evocation Magister or Ice Draconic (CL 28) 28*3.5 +28*16 = 546 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 Evocation Magister or Ice Draconic and Water Savant (CL 34) 34*3.5 +34*16 = 663 Cold Damage

at Lvl 30 Evocation Magister with Ice Draconic Knowledge Twist and Water Savant (CL 37) 37*3.5 +27*16 = 721.5 Cold Damage

As you can see only in the first case where the Wiz or Sor is not built for DPS does a single casting of Polar Ray does less damage than Ruin, with the exception of targets with extreme cold resistance or immunity. But at slightly over 1/4 the sp cost Polar will still be the better spell, unless the target is ice immune.

Please consider normalizing Ruin and Gtr Ruin damage and or sp cost along these new parameters.

Ruin and Greater Ruin are fine as they are, even with these new spells in place.

• They do a stable, expected amount of damage without rolling dice.
• They deal Bane damage.
  
  • Bane Damage is not reduced by MRR.
  • Bane Damage is not reduced by any kind of absorption or resistance.
  • Bane Damage is reduced by almost nothing DDO-wide
  • No creatures in the game (...except Xy'zzy) are immune to Ruin and Greater Ruin's damage.
  • No creatures in the game heal from Bane Damage.
    
    • You do not need to make additional character investments to make this true.

While they might not have the highest potential damage output anymore, they are still an extremely reliable source of damage. And if you've built toward being an elemental nuker, we're comfortable saying that you can be better with that in most scenarios than you are with Ruin.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Ruin and Greater Ruin are fine as they are, even with these new spells in place.

• They do a stable, expected amount of damage without rolling dice.
• They deal Bane damage.
  
  • Bane Damage is not reduced by MRR.
  • Bane Damage is not reduced by any kind of absorption or resistance.
  • Bane Damage is reduced by almost nothing DDO-wide
  • No creatures in the game (...except Xy'zzy) are immune to Ruin and Greater Ruin's damage.
  • No creatures in the game heal from Bane Damage.
    
    • You do not need to make additional character investments to make this true.

While they might not have the highest potential damage output anymore, they are still an extremely reliable source of damage. And if you've built toward being an elemental nuker, we're comfortable saying that you can be better with that in most scenarios than you are with Ruin.

Could you bring their cost down slightly? I think that would go a long way to making them more appealing to casters.

I tested the new spells on Lamma and enjoyed them. The animation on Acid well is nice. The cooldowns feel good on them. Does iceberg have its final animation at the moment?

My combat log was randomly turning off some of the caster level feedback so I wasn't able to test if various items or enhancements were working.

[zyirius]

Ruin and Greater Ruin are fine as they are, even with these new spells in place.

• They do a stable, expected amount of damage without rolling dice.
• They deal Bane damage.
  
  • Bane Damage is not reduced by MRR.
  • Bane Damage is not reduced by any kind of absorption or resistance.
  • Bane Damage is reduced by almost nothing DDO-wide
  • No creatures in the game (...except Xy'zzy) are immune to Ruin and Greater Ruin's damage.
  • No creatures in the game heal from Bane Damage.
    
    • You do not need to make additional character investments to make this true.

While they might not have the highest potential damage output anymore, they are still an extremely reliable source of damage. And if you've built toward being an elemental nuker, we're comfortable saying that you can be better with that in most scenarios than you are with Ruin.

I was not aware that the Ruins are unaffected by MRR that does make a big difference, thank you for your response.