First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[masterofthewand]

After having played with it for a few hours, and only having time to play with it as a pure class "as was intended", I can say that it's viable now pure. I need more time to experiment with multiclass options to give my opinion on that, however a lot of those options are now theoretically limited by EDF knights version, with time I could probably come up with a few endgame options, we'll see...

I wish to be able to switch Knights Transformation on and off quicker if we are wedded to this idea that casting range should be limited. I forgot to test it but scroll casting should not be range limited because it makes everyone else suffer. It adds a dynamic that ppl will just come to expect less raises from the class and I don't think that's good for grouping.

this is a very sensitive subject for me, and I'm not afraid to voice my opinion about it, not after all these years... I will say that I am generally happy with it played as a pure class...

I suggest removing the cooldown on knights transformation. I think that is a good compromise. It doesn't help certain multiclass builds much, but if we must loose a few of those fun to play builds at least we'll have a viable pure EK... Another option would be to only give the range penalty to the 5th tier knight transformation, I think someone mentioned that earlier in the thread... I'm just trying to come up with ways of saving the multiclass toons...

The last issue is flavor, I need help rationalizing why knights transformation reduces spells to touch range...

[Kotharsjach]

After having played with it for a few hours, and only having time to play with it as a pure class "as was intended", I can say that it's viable now pure. I need more time to experiment with multiclass options to give my opinion on that, however a lot of those options are now theoretically limited by EDF knights version, with time I could probably come up with a few endgame options, we'll see...

I wish to be able to switch Knights Transformation on and off quicker if we are wedded to this idea that casting range should be limited. I forgot to test it but scroll casting should not be range limited because it makes everyone else suffer. It adds a dynamic that ppl will just come to expect less raises from the class and I don't think that's good for grouping.

this is a very sensitive subject for me, and I'm not afraid to voice my opinion about it, not after all these years... I will say that I am generally happy with it played as a pure class...

I suggest removing the cooldown on knights transformation. I think that is a good compromise. It doesn't help certain multiclass builds much, but if we must loose a few of those fun to play builds at least we'll have a viable pure EK... Another option would be to only give the range penalty to the 5th tier knight transformation, I think someone mentioned that earlier in the thread... I'm just trying to come up with ways of saving the multiclass toons...

The last issue is flavor, I need help rationalizing why knights transformation reduces spells to touch range...

At this point I don't see going tier 4 or 5 in EK to begin with, even with a heavy melee focus, and still need AP for harper. It would take something like what capsela proposed to make it a real choice for me over archmage. Having said that, touch range is pretty annoying for this reason alone - It makes spells like otto's dancing ball pretty much uncastable. Basically you have two options, cc pin down a mob and cast it on that, or point your camera straight down at the ground. That's bad enough for spells like ice storm, acid rain, incendiary cloud, web, etc..... but for for anything with a long cast time - any symbol spell, fog spells, otto's dancing sphere, and more, it's downright un-playable, and this covers an extensive part of the wiz/sorc spell list. limiting the range advantage for casting spells in exchange for benefits I understand, but making someone point their camera at the ground just to cast at all = Supreme levels of annoyance.

[Kotharsjach]

What bothers me quite a bit with the design of Eldritch Knight is the inconsistency between the cores and the top of tree.

The cores are structured around Spellsword. This means you're building for attacking as rapidly as possible (but not with shield bashes, which do not benefit from Spellsword). You care a great deal about whether or not you hit, but the actual damage of your weapons is (comparatively) not very important. Such an approach is very spellpower-centric.

On the other hand, the top of the tree is focused around shield/orb use and raw weapon damage. There's melee power, competence bonuses to critical profile and a massive physical AE attack that isn't appreciably better than a standard Eldritch Strike for the purposes of magical damage.

I think the tree really needs to pick a path and stick with it rather than have this schizophrenic approach. Note: this is similar to the observation that EK requires gearing for too many stats.

Also, in terms of the range issue, I have no problem with making all casting melee range. However, it's a bit clunky with area target spells since it's nearly impossible to target these without moving your camera overhead. Would it be possible to just change the range on area target spells to 'drop it at your feet no matter where your mouse/target is?'.

EK in whatever form it takes is going to be fairly functional in heroics, however, in epics there are some glaring issues. The only epic destiny that supports both arcane casting and weapon attacks is fate singer. Pick something outside of the arcane sphere and casting really suffers, pick magister or DI and weapon damage falls off the wagon. That leaves something like a PDK sorc after a lesser TR in fatesinger with any real senergy in the intended playstyle.

There are a couple of simple tweaks to EDs to account for this.
1 - Add int as a stat option in fatesinger.
2 - Add melee/ranged power in magister and DI, seriously this pretty much won't affect hardly anyone but EKs, the two EDs are underwhelming enough as it is.

Finally, the EK tree needs int/cha to attack and damage. We are in the days where you get your chosen stat to damage, other than CON, which I do think should be carefully applied.

For epic, no sorc is gonna split their focus between cha and some other stat and be in the ballpark effectiveness of their counterparts.

[Burakii]

Disappointed with First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight.

1.Spell point pool management is going unaddressed.

2. The melee DPS should be better.

3. Between enhancements, feats, and equipment you can't get what you need to contribute in a meaningful way to your party.

When you make the game about specialized performance any build you present us with must compete with or complement the META. Why except an EK to your party when there is a Meta DPS character monk,tempest, Ect. that may join later, or a DC or Nuker Caster that can specialize in Nuking or DCs?

DDO is to much about specializing, I don't anticipate any EKs in end game groups, but I do anticipate them being excluded from the endgame scene.

Taking a Second Look: U41 Eldritch Knight.

1. Spell point pool management is still going unaddressed. not fixed

2. The melee DPS is good. fixed

3. Between enhancements, feats, and equipment you can't get what you need to contribute in a meaningful way to your party. not fixed

[Hjarki]

EK in whatever form it takes is going to be fairly functional in heroics, however, in epics there are some glaring issues. The only epic destiny that supports both arcane casting and weapon attacks is fate singer. Pick something outside of the arcane sphere and casting really suffers, pick magister or DI and weapon damage falls off the wagon.

I'm not entirely sure I agree. The reason you need an arcane destiny is for the +caster level bonuses. However, when you break down what spells a pure Eldritch Knight would be casting, this is of limited value. The big single target spells - the new level 9 spells and the DoT - are all level-capped at 20 anyway. Since it's relatively difficult to get +max caster level without also getting +caster level along the way, a significant number of your core damage spells aren't gaining any benefit from the +caster levels in the Destinies.

I do recognize the problem with gear/ability selection. However, I'd make two notes:

1. The problem is sufficiently complex that I don't believe anyone has examined it in sufficient detail. It's fairly easy to test "I maximize melee" vs. "I maximize spellcasting". It's relatively hard to balance the marginal benefits of increasing one over the other in a balanced fashion.

2. A 'balanced' build has virtues all its own. Going from 0 Spellpower to 100 Spellpower doubles your damage. But going from 800 Spellpower to 900 Spellpower only increases it by 10%. The same sort of math applies to melee power. Being able to (usefully) increase both is better than only being able to (usefully) increase one. That being said, I think the balancing point is likely to be "don't make more than a perfunctory effort towards spellpower" since spellpower levels are so much higher than melee power levels.

One thing I do see quite a bit in these comments is a propensity for the notion that Eldritch Knight should be full-fledged nuker and bring melee damage to the table. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. If you want to be a full-fledged nuke build, there are enhancement trees for that purposes.

[Kotharsjach]

I'm not entirely sure I agree. The reason you need an arcane destiny is for the +caster level bonuses. However, when you break down what spells a pure Eldritch Knight would be casting, this is of limited value. The big single target spells - the new level 9 spells and the DoT - are all level-capped at 20 anyway. Since it's relatively difficult to get +max caster level without also getting +caster level along the way, a significant number of your core damage spells aren't gaining any benefit from the +caster levels in the Destinies.

I do recognize the problem with gear/ability selection. However, I'd make two notes:

1. The problem is sufficiently complex that I don't believe anyone has examined it in sufficient detail. It's fairly easy to test "I maximize melee" vs. "I maximize spellcasting". It's relatively hard to balance the marginal benefits of increasing one over the other in a balanced fashion.

2. A 'balanced' build has virtues all its own. Going from 0 Spellpower to 100 Spellpower doubles your damage. But going from 800 Spellpower to 900 Spellpower only increases it by 10%. The same sort of math applies to melee power. Being able to (usefully) increase both is better than only being able to (usefully) increase one. That being said, I think the balancing point is likely to be "don't make more than a perfunctory effort towards spellpower" since spellpower levels are so much higher than melee power levels.

One thing I do see quite a bit in these comments is a propensity for the notion that Eldritch Knight should be full-fledged nuker and bring melee damage to the table. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. If you want to be a full-fledged nuke build, there are enhancement trees for that purposes.

I'll clarify some things. I'm probably an outlier in this regard but balanced builds are exactly what I usually do and have been doing specifically with wizard for a long time. For this I try to bring toughness, recovery, DC casting, spell damage, and melee damage to roughly equal terms. This isn't the most effective way to build, however, for me at least, this is what I find fun playing.

What I said before concerning synergy and epic destinies also takes into account things like spell point pool, spell penetration, short term buff duration, and spell DCs. Even if you are talking only a weapon damage/spell dps build, if the evocation DC is too low there won't be much spell damage either. And if the intended playstyle was only going to be weapon damage/spell damage, why remove the penalties for tensors and add something like "knight controller" to the tree?

Even with a purely weapon damage/spell damage approach your ED options are going to be very limited. If your casting with any significance, you will not be able to keep blitz up in LD - I've been there. This basically leaves no "good" options for an EK, even "decent" options is a stretch.

To give some rough figures at cap. Currently, my balanced build, does less than 1/3rd the melee damage I could achieve building purely for weapon damage. My spell DCs I would say are somewhere between 10 and 20 less than if I specced purely for dc casting. Spell damage should be right around the 60-70% mark of spell damage potential.

The notion that one can be a full fledged caster and bring weapon damage to the table already exists in heroics. In epics, one enhancement line is only a very small piece of the puzzle. Nothing they change in EK is going to make much of a ripple unless it has powerful scaling, and this is why I'm suggesting tweaks to EDs.

I would say something in the order of 60-70% effectiveness in multiple focuses is appropriate. IE - A EK should be able to achieve 60% effectivness in toughness for a striker, weapon damage, and casting ability. In heroics it will easily be above this, in epics it is far from it, and i'm saying that gap should be closed.

[Tilomere]

To have the affixes necessary to accomplish hybrid gameplay, you need to have nearly twice the affixes of a normal build for both build focuses. However, gear is intentionally designed only around 50% efficient on purpose, so that there is interesting choices in gearing and flavor involved and only enough available affixes to support a single focus. This means that while you can make a pure build with a single goal work with named gear, you can't make a hybrid work.

You have to craft custom cannith and slavers gear so all the affixes are what your two focuses need. However, slavers and cannith crafting are limited in power level. Slavers for example, is +17 stats, while high end gear is +20. Cannith is +15 stats, and only three affixes, instead of high end gear with 4 affixes.

You can make hybrid leveling builds, that level 1-29 only if you farm slavers for 120 hours and to make a heroic and epic hybrid sorcery slavers set, and have played 2-300 hours and deconstructed gear to level cannith crafting and craft hybrid gear. If you don't have this gear though, hybrids don't work. Even if you do have this gear, hybrids only work for 1-29 leveling.

This is what a hybrid set of gear looks like for my soundburst/turn undead paladin at level 10:



It uses 7 custom slavers and cannith crafted items, and 5 named items, good for just a small level range. And it is an even simpler build than an EK, which also tries to dps with spells. To go 1-30 on such a build and have it work well, you would need to have ~7 custom crafted pieces of gear at say levels 5, 10, 15, 20, and 28, or 35 total custom crafted pieces of gear, including a heroic and epic slaver's set. The slavers part of that gear takes 120 hours to farm. The cannith part of that gear takes ~60 hours to farm.

If you want to swap builds, the change in affixes needed adds another 35+ hours to tweak your set of leveling gear. This level of investment to make a hybrid build work isn't something you are going to generally see. I can count on one hand the number of effective hybrid characters I have run across in 10 years.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

The squishiness of an eldritch knight build might compel someone to equip a shield, however that then slows down DPS in favor of more defense than is necessary.... the compromise just isn't worth it in my opinion.

At first I was skeptical and thought that the Eldritch Knight tree needed more than it actually did, but in reality what I am seeing that is needed is just a matter of gear.

Once I equipped different gear it became clear what the problem was

About the Turtle Dragon raid idea that was discussed......

The perfect loot for it would be Orbs, Bucklers, and Runearms that go with a crafting system, also I've noticed that there seems to be no daggers in the game at the moment with. I say this would be perfect as it reflects many of the most recent classes that have been updated.

Place legendary affirmation on them as the main effect to convince people to run the raid and allow for three additional customization options to be crafted onto them.

An orb with legendary affirmation on it really would complete many Eldritch Knight Builds, but the thing is; there are just too many builds that could make good use of such an orb so creating multiple orbs with that same effect would be a waste of effort when one could instead create such an orb and make a crafting system to determine the other effects that also go onto said orb. Personally I'd like to make an orb with Legendary Affirmation, insightful negative healing amplification, Nullification, and insightful nullification on it, but the fact of the matter is that other people would desire something entirely different for their orb.

[blerkington]

This tree defines how you will play your character. You'll play it this way or nothing. You'll take this feat because you have to. You'll cast a spell now, because you have to. You will swing your sword because you have to. You will run into melee range because you have to. You will not heal your teammates because you can't toggle in time and they will die.

You go, Capsela.

Really good feedback about the new tree. I just hope at least some of it is taken into account.

Thanks.

[Paladin_of_Power]

Taking a Second Look: U41 Eldritch Knight.

1. Spell point pool management is still going unaddressed. not fixed

2. The melee DPS is good. fixed

3. Between enhancements, feats, and equipment you can't get what you need to contribute in a meaningful way to your party. not fixed

I wholeheartedly agree when I look at these issues with this tree plus the limitation of your spells been condensed down to touch range I keep asking myself there's got to be an easier way to play a character and be more effective too.

.????? Just what exactly is the draw to or advantages of playing in Eldrich Knight?????

I did try playing a Eldrich Knight on the test server and I found out I had to cast spells to control or damage enemies from far away then switch to melee...when casting in close range if I didn't have quicken turned on then I had a lot of spell failure... and of course the spells took longer to cast and I and ultimately ended up dying quicker. With Quicken turned on I ran out of spell points very quickly over all this character type really burns through spell points then they're just a half assed Melee with not enough armor which is a shame because it has so much potential

I think you need to build in mechanic for temporary spell points and either a discounted quicken metamagic or significantly increase the concentration skill. making spells all at touch range is incredibly detrimental overall there's got to be a better way... a better trade off .. id also like to see some synergy with the pale master forms

[elvesunited]

Fix those Eldritch Knight enhancements that trigger on spellcast so those enhancements which trigger when a spell is cast also trigger when a spell-like ability is cast.

Double PRR ( and add MRR ) bonus for casting Improved Shield enhancement. Make this so it does not stack with the Stalwart Defender, Sacred Defender, Nature Protector enhancements.

Double AC bonus for casting Improved Mage Armor.

Knight Transformation provides +2 Con +3 AC in addition to other benefits. Improved Knight Transformation provides an additional +2 Con +3 AC in addition to other benefits. To make up for loss of Tensers which provided defensive as well as offensive benefits while Knight Transformation only provides offensive benefits.

Radiant force field is now toggle on / toggle off with no cooldown. Does not stack with arcane barrier and requires arcane barrier as a pre-req.

Improved Offhand: Shield every six seconds get temp hp equal to 5 times the enhancement power of shield.

Improved Offhand: Orb provides the added protections against reflex save spell attacks that using a large or tower shield does.

Quicken is granted as a free feat with no spell point cost at core 4. Because like Quick draw it is an essential feat for the concept to even work. Making it free spell cost will help with spell point management. Move deflect arrows to core 5.

Get Temporary spell points on a critical melee hit as part of the Force's Edge enhancement. That's how the druid hybrids pull it off.

Eldritch Strike has and shares cooldown with Cleave.

Arcane Siphon gains attack arc and shares cooldown of Great Cleave

Each core beyond 1 provides +2 BAB that counts when determining what feats a character can take. If the character should after selecting feats change their enhancements so they no longer reach the needed BAB then those feats become disabled until that character reaches the needed BAB again. BAB bonus removed from Knight's Transformation.

Eldritch Tempest has cooldown reduced to 6 seconds and spell cost reduced to 6 to match arcane blast from archmage. The 1 second knockdown is removed as it is the primary reason for the long cooldown which is simply to high a price to pay. ( It benefits from spellpower but unlike arcane blast cannot benefit from metamagics )

Negative damage added to spellsword toggle so a palemaster form can join the fun.

Knight's magic changed to a straight +2 DC, +4 spell penetration. It's core 5 and exists under the Knight transformation restrictions. Not time to be stingy. Besides one of the benefits of Eldritch Knight is its versatility.

[CeltEireson]

The last issue is flavor, I need help rationalizing why knights transformation reduces spells to touch range...

Think of it as not casting in the traditional way but imbuing their weapon with a spell charge which goes off during combat. So their weapon becomes a focus which increases their powers but limits the spells to the range of the weapon.

[CeltEireson]

Hmmm one additional thought that occurred to me - could you have Eldritch Strike/Tempesty count as a cleave for the purposes of Momentum Swing in Dreadnaught for a bit of synergy with that destiny.

[masterofthewand]

Think of it as not casting in the traditional way but imbuing their weapon with a spell charge which goes off during combat. So their weapon becomes a focus which increases their powers but limits the spells to the range of the weapon.

That’s actually pretty good, I was sort of leaning towards that exclamation in my mind. Although I’d really like to hear an explanation from the devs them selves.

[masterofthewand]

Hmmm one additional thought that occurred to me - could you have Eldritch Strike/Tempesty count as a cleave for the purposes of Momentum Swing in Dreadnaught for a bit of synergy with that destiny.

It’s always been that way... clearly you’ve not tried this type of character.

[masterofthewand]

Think of it as not casting in the traditional way but imbuing their weapon with a spell charge which goes off during combat. So their weapon becomes a focus which increases their powers but limits the spells to the range of the weapon.

Now you need to come up with one for EDF. Your exclamation works for EK but how do you explain epic defensive fighting? Same thing? Does that explanation work?...I guess that probably could, but I want to see this stuff in the descriptions.

[CeltEireson]

It’s always been that way... clearly you’ve not tried this type of character.

I'd played around with one on live but mainly in heroics - didn't get a chance to try it on Lammania.

[Sho-sa]

Think of it as not casting in the traditional way but imbuing their weapon with a spell charge which goes off during combat. So their weapon becomes a focus which increases their powers but limits the spells to the range of the weapon.

That is a nice touch to explain for tabletop.

The unfortunate reality is that with this being an Internet, world-wide, MMO game with lag and targeting issues the touch range limitation on spells and healing effects is just not practical.

[masterofthewand]

That is a nice touch to explain for tabletop.

The unfortunate reality is that with this being an Internet, world-wide, MMO game with lag and targeting issues the touch range limitation on spells and healing effects is just not practical.

I'm with you, but I don't think they are going to change this..., to me it seems they have been planning this for a while... The best we can do at this point is drive home certain ideas like scrolls should not be affected by these restrictive feats, and we want a shorter cooldown, preferably none on knights transformation...

I personally would like to see tier 4 knights transformation not be effected by the range restriction maybe move some of the power up to tier 5... But that may not be realistic at this point...

[CeltEireson]

I'm with you, but I don't think they are going to change this..., to me it seems they have been planning this for a while... The best we can do at this point is drive home certain ideas like scrolls should not be affected by these restrictive feats, and we want a shorter cooldown, preferably none on knights transformation...

I personally would like to see tier 4 knights transformation not be effected by the range restriction maybe move some of the power up to tier 5... But that may not be realistic at this point...

Its also a hard one to balance - you've got a huge range of damage potential for both the melee and spell damage depending on the build and its focus. I'd agree with not having a reduction in the scroll range - the range limit seems more aimed at stopping people having the best of both worlds at the same time, being able to heal with scrolls doesn't affect that and no one that I know of uses scrolls offensively as the DC/damage is simply too low even if you have related enhancements.

But looking at it the knights transformation only effects 3 enhancements as far as I can see - though they do grant a fair bit of power but possibly achieved elsewhere if you multiclass:
30 spellpower/3% spell crit - which in epics isn't a massive drop
BAB of fighter - which is a big increase in to hit, but can be improved by use of tensers or multiclassing or other enhancements/destinies
+1 to crit multiplier - big loss but possible to get through multiclassing
+2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs or +2 to Evocation DCs, +2 to Conjuration DCs - again nice to have but still possible to get DCs to needed level without them.

Everything else doesn't rely on Knights transformation that I can see.


Main problem is see, which most have mentioned, is gearing. Fitting everything you need is going to be a pain.