First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[SpardaX]

Can you write this out a little more? What are these numbers? 7d6 from this Eldritch Knight revamp, I read 9d8 from Arcane Archer if you Tier 5. What's the 2d20?

So a Elf, or any race with access to Arcane Archer, full level 20 Wizard, sitting at level 30, taking Tier 5 in Arcane Archer, getting full cores from Eldritch Knight, is gonna do about 1000 damage per arrow?

To answer your first question:
7d8 = 7 x 4.5 = 31.5, 7d6 = 7 x 3.5 = 24.5, and 2d20 = 2 x 11.5 = 21.
Total those up, you get 77 at 0 spell power, and at 800 spell power you multiply by 9 to get 693.
If you instead go 9d8 from AA and 5d6 from Wizard, follow the same numbers, you end up at 711. More if you can pull more out of Wizard. BUT

To answer the second part of your question:
In theory, yes. And this is the first place my brain went.
Then I sat down and thought about it for a bit.

In practice, unlocking AA from Elf requires at minimum, 14 Action Points.
Tier 5 AA then requires 32 points (30 points for tier 5, 2 points for +2d8 dice. And that's assuming you dont also want all the other good Tier 5 Archery, which if you've spent this many points, you should probably consider.)
Core 6 EK to get the +1d6 and the 4d6 on and off is 41 points.

So to get everything you want, you need 87 points minimum. 8 more if you want to soak up all the Tier 5 AA stuff, but lets not even worry about that right now.
If you're well on your way into Racial Lives, this might mean nothing to you, but Im sure as heck not, so sadly this is a build I'll have to just longingly imagine personally. If you do want all the AA Goodness, its 15 points out, which means even someone finished their lives, and also has a tome of +1, is still 3 points short.

So one day? Maybe. But not right now at least.

[SpardaX]

Also, a shout out to the Devs if they see and read this. As we're currently doing EK passes, and I read early in this forum thread that PM Passes are in the works, are we able to fix it so that the Negative Energy Death Wardy % Items don't drain Undead Healing please? I know Undead just seem to constantly have issues crop up with them due to negative energy issues, but even if you guys just say you know about it and are working towards it, I would be happy.

I was kinda sad when I finally got my Outfit of the Celestial Guardian out of Tempest Spine and threw it on, only to find I'd lost 30 - 50 of my healing each tick.

[Hjarki]

In practice, unlocking AA from Elf requires at minimum, 14 Action Points.
Tier 5 AA then requires 32 points (30 points for tier 5, 2 points for +2d8 dice. And that's assuming you dont also want all the other good Tier 5 Archery, which if you've spent this many points, you should probably consider.)
Core 6 EK to get the +1d6 and the 4d6 on and off is 41 points.

I'd argue that almost everything beyond Core 2 EK is a waste for such a build. Most of it is melee-focused anyway. The capstone for AA is a lot better than the capstone for EK as well - 20% Doubleshot is a big boost while getting some minor passives and a useless-for-ranged active isn't going to do much for you.

[Silverleafeon]

The problem with using a missile projective build with a magic+combat hybrid is the sheathing of weapons.

Noticed this long ago playing a Silver Flame Favored Soul.


If you have been engaged in melee-ranged combat and go to cast a spell then back to combat the following happens:

Sheath weapon system (yes, this is the public area command - weapons are still considered equipped but they no longer show)

{it is possible quick draw will help with thus}

Begin casting spell

{quicken will definitely help with thus}

Draw weapon system animation

{quick draw will definitely help with thus}

Load any projective into projective weapon

{rapid reload is likely to help here}

Attack



In reality a thrower build has to draw out a new "weapon" every time thus attacks...

[Ballrus]

If youre referring to the spellsword imbues, they scale with spell power now, but do not benefit from metamagic spell power increases or spell power crit %. Spellsword imbues work the same as arcane archer imbues in that respect.

Thank you.

[SpardaX]

I'd argue that almost everything beyond Core 2 EK is a waste for such a build. Most of it is melee-focused anyway. The capstone for AA is a lot better than the capstone for EK as well - 20% Doubleshot is a big boost while getting some minor passives and a useless-for-ranged active isn't going to do much for you.

I actually fully agree with you, to the point where I'm already planning a pure Wizard and still going to attempt this.

That post was mainly to address the fact that, if you do plan to go the pure Elf route, you can't expect to get ALL the dice. (AA Dice + EK Dice)

Because getting that last 1d6 DOES require you get the capstone in EK. As bad a choice as that is.

[masterofthewand]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.

What the heck is this?...... I'm gona loose my temper over this...

[Sormiron]

I think it would be cool if eldritch strike and Eldritch tempest gave you better buffs with later cores. Extra spellsword dice, extra damage/dc on the next spell. maybe as the lvl 20 core make the spellsword able to crit with spell lore. Mayhaps all these things should stack up the longer a fight goes on. like during a boss fight or tough mobs.

These things should be higher up in the cores though so it gives more reason to stick to being pure and go melee.

as someone said, the lack of feats is a problem for sorceres sadly so I have to chime in there. I am not entirely sure how to fix it. as it is now
I´d probably go with some Savant elemental form to prevent mobs from being immune to whatever element I am using. but then I am avoiding being eldritch knight and limiting myself to cast at point blank. choices choices..
I am not sure it is good to make spellsword itself to cause mobs to be vulnerable to an element or no.

Giving debuffs or dot for spells and melee attacks while spellsword is active is a cool idea mentioned earlier.

Also there is the Arcane warrior feat to play with. It could add something like 2 spellsword dice aswell. there is so much that is can be done with a hybrid to make the advancing of the character fun and viable.

I always wondered if the goal is to make it go towards shield and board. if so there needs to be a lot more benifit from it. maybe focusing on shield and board should be some kind of debuffer/cc/buffer kind of type. making it a damage dealer outside of point blank spells is tricky.

[Emerge2012]

I think it would be cool if eldritch strike and Eldritch tempest gave you better buffs with later cores. Extra spellsword dice, extra damage/dc on the next spell. maybe as the lvl 20 core make the spellsword able to crit with spell lore. Mayhaps all these things should stack up the longer a fight goes on. like during a boss fight or tough mobs.

These things should be higher up in the cores though so it gives more reason to stick to being pure and go melee.

as someone said, the lack of feats is a problem for sorceres sadly so I have to chime in there. I am not entirely sure how to fix it. as it is now
I´d probably go with some Savant elemental form to prevent mobs from being immune to whatever element I am using. but then I am avoiding being eldritch knight and limiting myself to cast at point blank. choices choices..
I am not sure it is good to make spellsword itself to cause mobs to be vulnerable to an element or no.

Giving debuffs or dot for spells and melee attacks while spellsword is active is a cool idea mentioned earlier.

Also there is the Arcane warrior feat to play with. It could add something like 2 spellsword dice aswell. there is so much that is can be done with a hybrid to make the advancing of the character fun and viable.

I always wondered if the goal is to make it go towards shield and board. if so there needs to be a lot more benifit from it. maybe focusing on shield and board should be some kind of debuffer/cc/buffer kind of type. making it a damage dealer outside of point blank spells is tricky.

There are some possibilities but the entire tree needs to be reworked again. Sorc/bard with cha to atk/dm would be kind of neat due to swash swf with a buckler, except the new nuke spells make going melee absolutely pointless for a sorc based build unless they somehow manage to run out of spellpoints. EK as a wizard opens up self healing and some defense from PM but you run into the problem they're still not good defensively overall and the DPS is going to be awful. They won't be able to tank as intim investment is asking way too much as a wizard, they won't hold any sort of hate aggro, and then there's the fact they're still pretty squishy and any monk would make a more suitable tank. Then there's the issue of touch range spells absolutely destroying the idea of a spellsword anyways. The temp HP from the shield enhancement is exceptionally poor and the reworked tier 5 aoe attack is also. The shield needs to add hp at triple shield enhancement, and double that in epics, maybe even 4 seconds instead of 6, and the AOE attack needs a longer trip.


I like what they're doing with bard and everything else with the update, but EK is still going to be something that new players try out and abandon quickly because it's still going to be the worst tree in the game even after the fact.

[Cantor]

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?

the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat

You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage

---

Apparently your definition of big boost is significantly different than mine. Your missing a decimal place. With the decimal place boost, I would still probably not use it. Tenser's scrolls are too easy to use instead.

3% is so absurdly low for multiplier I just read it as crit chance at first glance... needs fixing.

[K_9]

Quick question from me. Apologies if answered already but didn't see it.

Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric

Does this work when duel wielding, ie does it proc on both weapons on hit? Thanks

[SpardaX]

Quick question from me. Apologies if answered already but didn't see it.

Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric

Does this work when duel wielding, ie does it proc on both weapons on hit? Thanks

I don't know about the updated version on Lam, but what I can say is, it does work with TWF as of right now.


Also now that I've fully read the thread, I like the idea someone came up with for adding crits to the spellsword toggle based off your spell critical chance. Im not sure its possible to, but if you were to put that in at Tier 5 or Core 5 or 6 it would definitely be a nice high level boost to damage. But I assume something such as whether an ability can crit is probably all or nothing, and can't be turned on later. If so, I think it'd go well to help by turning it on

Edit: I also like the idea of EK getting a "Moonbow" style thing in tier 5, as people have rightly pointed out that casting a spell every 12 seconds is probably going to be a drain.
And to that guy that said: You either dont have 4000 Spell Points, are Casting the wrong spells, or are not getting temporary spell points 33% of the time off every spell you cast
My answer is 1: No, I'm a wizard. 2: What spells are the right spells? And 3: No, I'm a wizard.

I would also agree with people in saying, I don't mind the new Tier 4 and 5 EK toggles, but I would still take Permanent Tensors over them, so if that could be a multiselector option I would really like that. People have suggested having the penalties removed being a potential upgrade, and that would make me Extra happy, but seriously, penalty or no, I like that permanent tensors, and would appreciate if it doesnt get removed.

To the guy that said "Just cast the spell, a max wizard is going to have a good time limit on it!"
Not really. I will admit my main Wizard is only 18, not pure 20, but even at caster level 18 with extend going, tensors lasts just over 3 minutes. What you and what I consider "good time limit" might be different, but at least in my opinion, 3 minutes for 50 spell points that Im going to have to recast over and over is not a good time limit.

Of course Im already casting Death Aura and Displacement every 2 - 3 minutes, so if I need to add Tensors to my rotation in that regard, I guess I'll live.
I would just prefer not to.

[Tuxedoman96]

Quick question from me. Apologies if answered already but didn't see it.

Core 2: Spellsword (you get all four of the following toggles, 5SP to activate). Passive: +1% doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power. You gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial Weapons.
Corrosive: Charge your equipped weapon with magical Acid, causing them to deal an addtional 1d6 (element) damage on hit. You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 (wizard/sorcerer) levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18). This damage scales with Acid Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional Acid damage per Character Level which scales with Acid Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch.
Flaming: As above, with fire
Frost: As above, with cold
Shock: As above, with electric

Does this work when duel wielding, ie does it proc on both weapons on hit? Thanks

As far as the devs have said, there is no ICD for the spellsword dmg.

[Propane]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

If folks are "melee" -I would expect them to lean towards Dire Charge at CAP...

Option A
1 sec with no save (current)

Option B
6 sec with DC is (20 + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks)

(allow selector for either )

[Tilomere]

More important is the feedback from people who have played it on Lamannia so far, which has been generally positive. To (once again) be mildly blunt, theorycrafting without playing provides far less useful feedback, as it's often based on assumptions and guesswork that aren't accurate.

Which makes sense; we've been playing with this tree for a month or two internally, and people are now seeing it for the first time and starting to grasp what's possible with it. We know what build types work and don't within this version of the tree already. I've built 13 different builds using this tree and have run them all through actual content. There'll (of course) be builds using it that we didn't expect in the end, which is great, but those don't tend to emerge until 2-3 weeks after a new tree hits Live and people start really working with it.

When we hear several people say "I haven't played it, but this ability/tree seems really weak" vs. a few say "I've played this on Lamannia and it feels fine", we're more likely to lean on the latter, because it's based on actual play.

Also, as we've said before - How often a build gets played has no bearing on how powerful (let alone how valid/good) a build is. There are plenty of decently powerful builds that aren't played that often. Like Beacon of Hope and Renegade Mastermaker, this tree has a non-typical playstyle. It won't be for everyone, but we're hoping that it'll be fun and able to hold up in content for those who want to play a hybrid melee/caster.

+1

I've played all sorts of hybrids now of every single combat style and all sorts of multiclassed and pure hybrid builds and I'm happy with most of them. I can honestly just look and see that Wizard/Sorc have both mass hold and charm spells, and either AoE helpless with all the available helpless damage in the game or charms (heroic gameplay) are really all anyone needs to make a successful hybrid. I've been mostly using soundburst, but mass hold, charms, and/or color spray also works.

No, this isn't the melee in R10 while simultaneously DC casting in R10 at cap build like a boss, but that's what you get for making a hybrid. A unique experience that is enjoyable because it is unique, in lieu of enjoyment from raw power. Plus if you pug the default server like I do, where a reaper group is 2 vets, 3 new players, and a cleric hire, a hybrid that can do multiple things on lower difficulties is a fairly good choice.

The main problem that I see with this tree is that it attempts to combine boosts to DAMAGE casting with boosts to melee combat. That's NOT how hybrid toons work in this game. Hybrid toons pick ONE damage source and combine that with DC casting, not damage casting.

If you REALLY want to make this tree *good*, remove all the boosts to SPELLPOWER and replace them with saving throw debuffs or DC increases, because that's how you're going to play an Eldritch Knight. Crowd control it and whack it.

That is where I started, because it was simple to comprehend when I started making my soundburst hybrids. AoE helpless > whack with stick.

I'm moving beyond that now, but it took me seven months of experimentation on a wide amount of builds to start thinking more broadly. For example, I started with this simpler dagger caster one (which would be styling in heroics if they fixed time bomb). I'm on more complex ones now.

[masterofthewand]

Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.

What the heck is this?...... I'm gona loose my temper over this...

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...

[Sho-sa]

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...

As one of the handful who mentioned this I will tell you why I am not bothering to be outraged.


After the EPIC fail of EPIC Defensive Fighting (the listening to feedback (not- haha), how we did NOT want this, Ftr/Pally left out, and so forth) and their final result was to cut the benefit in half while still leaving 100% of the fail; I conclude this is just something they are going to do no matter what.


I have zero plans in playing EK pure, it will always be a hybrid for this very reason. I will NEVER take these tiers, therefore high level EK is pointless.


I mean honestly, why does any player think they took the absolute number one best thing about EK (perma Tenser's), deleted it, and shoved Epic Defensive Fail down our throats in Heroic?


Obviously this, "no casting to help other players," silliness is something SSG is wedded to, therefore it is pointless to be outraged over it. Control the things you can in life. Trust me, they are NOT gonna listen.


As they progress to whittle away the things which make DDO great, the game will die. Which is fair, what twelve years now? It's been a good run. We all know the Devs don't actually play this game, because honestly, the stuff they come up with on their own is simply laughable.


I will play toons which are fun and do NOT include this Epic Defensive Fail silliness.


Once they finish their grand plan to turn us all into THEIR plan for OUR characters I will be out the door and will the last one to leave please turn out the lights.


I mean seriously, what 'profitable' company devotes its time turning out products its customers don't want?

[Chacka_DDO]

Like for the Epic Defensive Fighting feat also here I don't think there is any need to restrict all spells to touch range if you want to use Knight's Transformation.
I don't get why you want to cripple casters without any real need for it
Remember a game is there to have fun and not to spoil the fun as much as possible with unnecessary "interesting limitations"

And as before I don't get the sense of a knockdown for 1 second on Eldritch Tempest with at least 30 seconds cooldown, this is more or less just only an useless optical effect.
Similar to Dire Charge I would expect a ratio of 15 seconds cooldown and 6 seconds duration for such an ability!

[Chacka_DDO]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

Just to mention it, it is questionable if a Difficult Check is needed at all in a game like DDO.
For example, I played recently Diablo III for some weeks and there all abilities like stun or blindness work every time you hit a monster with it and they even work on every boss, and it is a lot of fun to play Diablo III without such Difficult Checks we have in DDO.
And you may consider that Blizzard is much more successful with Diablo III than SSG with DDO and this maybe because they simply do some things better.
In many things, DDO should be different from what we have now and some things demand simplifications in DDO because sometimes less is simply better.

For the DC checks, I would, in general, suggest a paradigm shift the question should not be if an ability work or not if you have good items and character stats, the question should be how often you can use them and how powerful they are.
It is just only frustrating if you use something especially with a long cooldown time and all you get is a message that the monster resists what you did or even worse the monster is immune.
Such frustrating moments are simply unnecessary and it makes a game worse if they are an inherent part of a game in my opinion.

howsoever I don't expect such a paradigm shift any time soon.
But back to Eldritch Tempest, 1 second is simply not enough even if it is irresistible if you can use it only every 30 seconds, sure you can say you want it as the optical effect with no real use but I think this ability should be really useful.

My suggestion would be to make this enhancement and Drifting Lotus and Lay Waste 15 seconds cooldown and 6 seconds duration and set them all on the same cooldown timer.
And make the DC check for Eldritch Tempest against fortitude or reflex with a 10 + half character level + charisma or int modifier + trip bonuses.

[elvesunited]

Why aren’t more people outraged by this? Only a handful of people even mentioned it, this ruins so many builds that already exist, I’m trying really hard not to insult people but I’ve had enough, if they do this I’m done, 11 years and that would be the final straw, they’ve messed with my moose too many times, that’s one of the worst mechanics ever conceived and they’re gonna put it on Eldrich Knight. Who in their right mind would discourage ranged magical attack on an arcane warrior type character? What would be the point of playing that type of character? why not just play any other Melee character? My head is still exploding...

I suspect that there simply aren't that many eldritch knight players. This has been considered the worst enhancement tree for some time. ( Splashes do not count ) Even as a flavor build it is a troubled build. Splitting feats and equipment between spellcasting and melee is very rough. I personally have only theorycrafted it.

It would appear that the cast a spell to soften the enemy up and charge in to finish off with melee attacks
( or just keep distant in event of a boss rating well beyond the eldritch knights defensive capabilities )
---- has been changed to ----
Pure melee who is constantly rotating between melee attacks and touch range spells to buff up both.

So yeah that's a big hit. Much worse than double cooldown from Tenser. And I think the idea is that they've boosted the DPS through a combined melee/magic assault to the point where its much more competitive. ( or so the rumor has it )

It probably won't matter though because:

1) The defensive capabilities are still severely subpar even with the additional hp.
2) The viability of casting any high level spell ( even with quicken ) while engaged in melee combat is dubious. ( I'm guessing its faster casting that allows sorceror to hold even with wizard in testing )
3) The spell point management of constant casting in combat is questionable. ( yeah they got rid of the irritating spell point costs in the cores but .... )
4) I'm not sure how viable touch range DC casting is. ( or how that will help you went attacked by a mob )
5) The feat starvation issue hasn't been addressed at all. ( unless you count free quick draw )