Trapping DC rule of thumb?

[SpiritofAlba]

Planning a TR to a toon with only one or two rogue levels and not an Int build (will be wis based FVS / Monk for background info)

Rogue splash is mainly for staff speed boost, but it’d be nice to be able to trap, at least at low levels when traps tend to be relatively more deadly, and dying is definitely more annoying.

I know on wiki there is data about traps DCs, but I wondered if anyone had any rules of thumb for what is needed in order to trap reasonably successfully? Is there a rough DC per level to remember? A minimum Int score at build for a rogue splash? Is there a break point at which trapping gets harder, or easier, as different effects come in?

I have played both dex pure rogue and int based ranger / rogue, and had no real problem getting trap DCs. I have decent trapping gear. I don’t need a list of ways to boost trap skills.

To be clear, I am not expecting no fail guaranteed, and will always defer to a proper trapper. I know it is going to be tricky with rogue splash. Just trying to work out in advance if / when will be viable.

I may need to play around with some spreadsheets to map int, gear, skill points etc, but any pointers welcome.

[Cantor]

Planning a TR to a toon with only one or two rogue levels and not an Int build (will be wis based FVS / Monk for background info)

Rogue splash is mainly for staff speed boost, but it’d be nice to be able to trap, at least at low levels when traps tend to be relatively more deadly, and dying is definitely more annoying.

I know on wiki there is data about traps DCs, but I wondered if anyone had any rules of thumb for what is needed in order to trap reasonably successfully? Is there a rough DC per level to remember? A minimum Int score at build for a rogue splash? Is there a break point at which trapping gets harder, or easier, as different effects come in?

I have played both dex pure rogue and int based ranger / rogue, and had no real problem getting trap DCs. I have decent trapping gear. I don’t need a list of ways to boost trap skills.

To be clear, I am not expecting no fail guaranteed, and will always defer to a proper trapper. I know it is going to be tricky with rogue splash. Just trying to work out in advance if / when will be viable.

I may need to play around with some spreadsheets to map int, gear, skill points etc, but any pointers welcome.

Rog at 1 and then wait for the second until at least level 6-8, if you take level 2 rog and put any skill points not in trap skills you are wasting points.

With fvs you can focus on disable over search and use find traps spell to make up a little. Well geared open locks can be done with almost no investment. UMD is also not as much of a must have on a divine.

As long as you don't dump int you should be fine, if human you also get 1 more skill and access to racial skill action boost.

If you have completionist/epic skills/arti pasts/tomes/skill tomes it helps a lot too. (max skills+ past lives = no fail with no gear until like level 10)

[DYWYPI]

I've recently covered Search DCs, in another thread and such things: [Post #14] and [Post #16]. Those [Seach DCs] on the DDO Wiki are fairly accurate as of U39, since I did the majority of the testing. A lot of the 'Disable Device' DC values are more likely to be outdated.

I'll repost [Post #38] here as its relevant to this thread:

Like I mentioned prior; as a general rule for heroic [F2P] quests for Elite difficulty the 'Spot and Search' DCs tend to increase by either: +2 or +3 DC per quest level. There are odd exceptions to the rule "outliers" (Dream Conspiracy comes to mind!!!).

Though that is the generic pattern they tend to follow within many heroic quests. The generic Disable DC tends to be ~ +10 higher than Search DC but Disable DCs will typically vary a lot more with quests. For example the quest; Prove your Worth (Epic Elite), comes to mind there where the Trap DCs vary significantly.

Note: Also, remember: you cannot Disable a trap box; if you fail to meet the Search DC value for the Control Box. Loosely for many traps if your Disable Device before you apply; +5 Thieves' Tools, (without temporary buffs) is equal or better to your standing Search (and you can find the trap control box) it's extremely unlikely you'd Critically fail ~ 95%+ of heroic traps. I don't bother with +5 in most [99.9%] heroic quests just +4 Free Agent Thieves' tools. I'm not a "Trapper build", I'm DEX based and don't have super gear.

So if you can make your build at the bare minimum; to be over those Search value requirements, you are going in the right general direction. The Table below in mainly based upon 'Free to Play' quests and everyone can access those.

If it would help you visualise better?

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20
Suspected base: Spot/Search (Traps on Elite)	9	12	15	17	20	22	25	28 *	30	33	35	38	41	43 **	46 ***	48 ****	51 *****	54 ******	56	59

Notable outliers:
[*] Level 08 Elite; Against the Slave Lords Adventure Pack (some traps), Search DC:32
[**] Level 14 Elite; A Cabal for One (trap you cannot disable), Search DC:45
[**] Level 14 Elite; Grim and Barett; Multitude of Menace (NB: possibly FlimsyFirewood has investigated the irregular DCs since U39 in that Pack, but Search: 51, on 1 trap U39)
[***] Level 15 Elite; Search and Rescue, Records of the Past, Search DC:51
[****] Level 16 Elite; The Mask of Deception: Search DC:52
[*****] Level 17 Elite; Thorn and Paw, Pit Covers: Search DC:61
[******] Level 18 Elite; Dream Conspiracy (1 trap in the jail cell) Search DC:74! Most likely the highest Search DC in any Heroic quest by far!

I can make good educated guesses on [Spot/Search] DCs. Since I've tested 1000s of traps there is a strong correlation regarding Quest level verses Spot/Search DC.

NB: Any 'extremely high outliers' have been 'manually edited' by a DDO Developer's hand rather than obeying the quest's default difficultly.

Only perhaps a few outliers don't follow the rule but the [Spot/Search] rule probably accounts for 95% or more, of most generic [F2P] Heroic traps. :D I mentioned prior; 'Reaper mode' does not increase required: Search or Disable DC values.


Edit: I haven't done much testing of Epic Search DCs because I'd need to create some special: Test Rogues (to Fail the DCs), and solo Epic Elite on those "test rogues". Though the rule still seems to hold true; typically the newer Legendary quests have slightly higher DCs. You may notice on each individual page: I've used educated guesses on 'Suspected Requirements' (before the tables) if I don't have much data.

For example of an individual page: http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_informat...t_and_Search/1

[C-Dog]

Planning a TR to a toon with only one or two rogue levels and not an Int build (will be wis based FVS / Monk for background info)

Rogue splash is mainly for staff speed boost, but it’d be nice to be able to trap, at least at low levels when traps tend to be relatively more deadly, and dying is definitely more annoying.

Not sure what traps you've been waltzing through, but I find high level ones just as deadly.


But I have to wonder if, by the time you hit high levels/Epics, you won't kinda regret that rogue level, as most/all the trapping/evasion benefits will be long forgotten. Not a Dex build, so Evasion is a low % incentive, and Open Locks only falls behind more. If a staff build, okay, those bonuses last - but is that the focus of your build?

Rog at 1 and then wait for the second until at least level 6-8, if you take level 2 rog and put any skill points not in trap skills you are wasting points.

If you're going for Evasion, yes, unless there is a pressing incentive to wait (such as a spell* or class ability that you are bee-lining to. If no evasion (such as on a heavy armor build, or on a Ranger), then no absolute reason to take a 2nd level (other than being short on Skill Points).

(* e.g. on a Wizard it's Level 9, right after Wall of Fire at Wiz 7.)

You start w/ 4's in each @ Level 1, natch. You divide your Rogue Skill Points by the number of Rogue-only skills, and take Rogue when those can all be applied to the skills that Rogue helps in - no points go to skills that another class can take non-cross-class. This means that you are dumping Trapping skills for a few levels before you take Rogue 2, BUT the build is MUCH stronger in the long run. Diff between smaller short term gains and bigger long-term ones.

For an Int build, yes, this usually ends up, being somewhere ~around~ Level 7 or so. On a non-Int build, ~maybe~ sooner. On a non-Int FS... I have no idea if there's a spell that you want asap, but if so then right after that.

With fvs you can focus on disable over search and use find traps spell to make up a little...

Mmmm... not on a non-Int build. The spell gives a bonus of, effectively, 1/2 rank/level, which will not get the job done. "A little" is a bad plan for a Trapper's Search skill. Esp on a non-Int build where Search starts at a significantly lower total than otherwise.

So, OP - yeah, you're doing the right thing by questioning when you'll want to abandon any hope of successfully trapping, and so if this is even a practical return on investment.

Well geared open locks can be done with almost no investment. UMD is also not as much of a must have on a divine.

Right - since you can re-roll OL, you can wait until you roll high enough to open the Lock. Unfortunately, that burns thru those +5 picks faster, and you never know if you even ~can~ open the lock until you roll a 20.

[Selvera]

My trapping rule of thumb has always been (quest level) * 3 = trap skill needed. It's not perfect; but it gives an estimate. (and using the adjusted level for difficulty)

For example; if you're running korthos level 1 on normal = level 3 on elite *3 = you want search and disable = 9 or higher.
Running gianthold you're looking at quests 15/16 on elite = search and disable = 45 or 48 to trap.
Legendary slavelords are level 33 on elite = search and disable = 99 to trap.

From experience; running around with 100 search/disable on various characters I have rarely failed to find boxes or blow boxes in any content.

[peng]

A newly made shadar kai comes with a stack of unbound +5 tools when it reaches level 15. just create a new shadar kai, tell elmisnter to level you up, then run to a bank or mailbox, drop them in, then delete the character. Rinse and repeat as needed.

[Enoach]

DYWYPI has a good breakdown of numbers you should shoot for. I will add a note that the Heroic Barovian Content True Seeing does cover the Secret Doors so search on Secret Doors is likely lower then Traps.

When doing a two level splash of Rogue it is sometimes hard to figure out the best time to take the 2nd Rogue level. But it is Highly recommended to take the first one at Level 1. Now I personally have found the 2nd Level at Levels 9 to 11 is a good choice. As that is around the time evasion starts coming into its own as a defensive tool, and with tomes and the number of skill points to spend are in a better place to catch-up Rogue skills

Recommendations to keep your skills in top form
1. Invest in Search and Disable Device. Try to improve these every level - Spot is nice but if you spot the trap and can't find it, it is like being blind and knowing a cliff is near but not which way

2. Gear. I recommend having swappable gear. What you wear when you are questing and something to swap to when dealing with traps. Being able to craft a Search/Disable item can assist in keeping you at the highest possible skill for your level

3. Buffs.
At lower levels potions/wands of Fox's cunning and Cat's grace can assist in improving your skills if you don't have the gear to improve your attribute to +4 or better.
Heroism and later Greater Heroism (via UMD or potions or cast upon you) can assist in boosting your skills
For Search don't overlook the "Find Traps" spell. The bonus from this stacks with all other buffs. Even using the 2nd Level Scroll can give you a +1 Buff to your search which can make a difference.


As a note, even with just a single level of Rogue you can still have a path to being able to Find/Disable any current trap in the game. Just need to use the 1, 2 & 3 above

[DYWYPI]

Legendry Elite; Tempest's Spine [Search] DC:90 and Disable Device DC is between: 104-106, albeit it probably won't have the highest trap DCs in the game.

Locks won't ever have a DC higher than 100. Typically 'Open Lock' values are fairly low. The highest I have personally come across is DC:92 (To Curse the Sky) Epic Elite.
That's an extreme outlier, VoN 1 has one (optional) Open Lock DC:90. Servants of the Overlord on (Epic Elite) is OL DC:61. The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth (The Lost Seekers, Part 1) (Optional) is OL DC:40. Except for a small handful of quests OL is easy to achieve.


I haven't done much testing of Secret Door DCs.

Heroic: Secret Doors "generically" on Normal seem to have same DC for two levels, then +1 DC for another two levels, etc. On Hard setting they seem to increase by alternating +1 and +2. For Elite DC increases +2, per level.

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19
Suspected: Search (Secret Doors on Normal)	1	1	2	2	3	3	4	4	5	5	6	6	7	7	8	8	9??	9??	10??
Suspected: Search (Secret Doors on Hard)	2	3	5	6	8	9	11	12	14	15	17	18	20	21	23	24	26??	27??	33??
Suspected: Search (Secret Doors on Elite)	2	4	6	8	10	12	14	16	18	20	22	24	26	28	30	32	37??	36	41??

Notable Secret Door outliers:
[*] Level 10; Hiding in Plain Sight: 15;21;24
[**] Level 11; The Enemy Within: 11;20;24
[***] Level 16; Mask of Deception: 23;32;37

At Level 17, onwards I don't have many Secret Door [Search] results... On the other hand [Spot] DC for Secret Doors, is likely never any higher than DC:1!

Note: Most of the results above are based upon Free-to-Play quest testing. By the mid-teens its less reliable using that rule for Secret Doors (again the Developers have edited by hand any outliers).

NB: The pack 'Devil's Gambit' has weird outliers. I managed to persuade: Flimsyfirewood, to investigate and successfully fix one the Secret Doors [U39] within that pack. :D

Note: not including "outliers" True Seeing would likely find every Door on Normal and likely anything up to Level 15 on Elite.

[SpiritofAlba]

Thanks all for helpful comments. And recommend star goes to DYWYPI. I am going to cut out and keep that table.

[DYWYPI]

No problem, I've already posted those tables before within the DDO Forums. It's easy enough to copy-and-paste them into a text editor or Word processor. Of course the DDO Wiki will be more detailed. However, the tables can act as a quick reference.