Early Look: Bard Changes

[Hipparan]

However, seriously, Bardic Inspiration isn't the only single shot "everyone wants this" buff. Clerics/FVS hand out Deatheard, tons of people toss out FoM (although Inspiration can do that now too), Artis tag people with Deadly Weapons. Buff swapping encourages class diversity. If anything, I kinda want MORE unique class buffs so there's more of a benefit to grouping up

You'll get a chance to preview this stuff on Lamannia, so definitely give it a try We got it all down to just one button, and that's kind of the best we can do without making everything part of the Aria.

Once you get to level 16 or so, Clerics and FvS don't hand out the single version of Deathward, they use the mass version. FoM tends to be more situational (and appears on items), and Deadly weapons along with FoM can be quickened.

I would be much more ok if Bardic Inspiration was as fast as an instant song, but then that would get rid of the flavor of Bards. It makes sense to me to have Spellsingers at least get a mass version of Bardic Inspiration since their enhancements boost it the most. Also, I think Bards giving out mass FoM is very appealing for the enhancement tree, but not overpowering. Clerics in raid groups would appreciate it (saves ~300 sp).

[Silverleafeon]

My Druids typically cast
DW - FoM - spiderskin on everyone who bothers to wait for buffs.


Due to the Devs being extremely reluctant to grant any sort of Mobil Spellcasting Epic feat or riding upon an item, I dislike buffing on the run.

EI: Monk runs faster than you, then when you start casting (yes jump casting is an option but that is a lot of button pressing while watching out for doorways and corners) ect…


PS definitely looking forward to long term healing, abandoned fighter tanks due to lack of consistent heals in random parties...

[Tuxedoman96]

There's a sweet spot where the hold time doesn't clip an animation, we'll wrestle with it a little to try and shave some time off.

However, seriously, Bardic Inspiration isn't the only single shot "everyone wants this" buff. Clerics/FVS hand out Deatheard, tons of people toss out FoM (although Inspiration can do that now too), Artis tag people with Deadly Weapons. Buff swapping encourages class diversity. If anything, I kinda want MORE unique class buffs so there's more of a benefit to grouping up

You'll get a chance to preview this stuff on Lamannia, so definitely give it a try We got it all down to just one button, and that's kind of the best we can do without making everything part of the Aria.

Well, yes, but how viable is it to use this button for healing a group of people during a battle? Or are we simply expected to apply this on a consistent basis before a fight (if we know about the fight beforehand)/at the beginning of a quest? And even then, unless the song pool increases to compensate, that's anywhere from 1-12 songs used (one for each that would potentially need healing), versus 1-3. Much more conservative on the song pool.

[Paulsrs]

Inspire Courage now grants (sic) max +8 damage

Reworking bards? Solid.

+8 attack/damage? What.
In an era of melees hitting well over 1,000 damage per swing, +8 damage may as well not be any at all. The to-hit is... meh. Tempest rangers have ~160 to-hit, so I suppose a 5% boost isn't the worst thing ever. Wish it were more like +15 to-hit though.

Most of the changes are pretty nice, but nothing that would make me want a bard in the group over another good monk or ranger. Some of the buffs are still antiquated, but some of the changes are nice. Making sustaining song single-target is obnoxious any which way you look at it. Necessary so that it works with a 10-year-old, highly outdated system, but we wish it were some other way.

[kmoustakas]

I still can't get over the fact Lynnabel thinks Boast is useless. No Lynnabel, no. You were the chosen one *cries*

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Considering we only have a lute, and a magical theremin is likely out of the question, may we get a cowbell?

I hear it's just great for the common fever....



If you can't provide this old bard's ultimate wish, perhaps these legendary flaming bagpipes will have to do....

[Hipparan]

Well, yes, but how viable is it to use this button for healing a group of people during a battle? Or are we simply expected to apply this on a consistent basis before a fight (if we know about the fight beforehand)/at the beginning of a quest? And even then, unless the song pool increases to compensate, that's anywhere from 1-12 songs used (one for each that would potentially need healing), versus 1-3. Much more conservative on the song pool.

Well you see, the current version of Sustaining Song is going to be given to Warchanters, so now Warchanters will be the Melee, buffing, healing Bard, and Spellsinger will be the nerfed, mediocre spellcaster Bard.

Hey guys! We've heard you loud and clear about the loss of Sustaining Song as a directional heal, and are just going to give you the best of both worlds. Boast, the not so memorable temp HP single shot song from Warchanter has been revamped into the following:

Soothing Song: Sing a brief song to apply a small positive heal to your target and nearby party members.

This will play exactly like the old Sustaining Song did, but with no lingering heal over time. It's also only T2 in Warchanter, so not completely out of reach in the earliest portions of the game. If you'd still like that tasty tasty super long heal over time, it's right where Sustaining Song used to be, and if you want the same utility in a pinch Sustaining Song used to have you can sing this song instead

Behind the scenes, I'm swiping the actual effect and scaling 1:1, as well as its directional targeting and range, so your numbers and gameplay feel should be exactly the same before and after this shuffle. It's in Warchanter because there isn't room in Spellsinger and Boast is kinda dumb so we're just gonna bend some rules so you guys can get the best of both worlds.

I really hope that with the Arcane pass, whenever that comes, spellcasting Bards will get thrown a bone.

[Kilgrave]

There's a sweet spot where the hold time doesn't clip an animation, we'll wrestle with it a little to try and shave some time off.

However, seriously, Bardic Inspiration isn't the only single shot "everyone wants this" buff. Clerics/FVS hand out Deatheard, tons of people toss out FoM (although Inspiration can do that now too), Artis tag people with Deadly Weapons. Buff swapping encourages class diversity. If anything, I kinda want MORE unique class buffs so there's more of a benefit to grouping up

You'll get a chance to preview this stuff on Lamannia, so definitely give it a try We got it all down to just one button, and that's kind of the best we can do without making everything part of the Aria.

Can you add attack speed in Warchanter cores 3%-5% ?

[Don1966]

Hey guys! We've heard you loud and clear about the loss of Sustaining Song as a directional heal, and are just going to give you the best of both worlds. Boast, the not so memorable temp HP single shot song from Warchanter has been revamped into the following:

Soothing Song: Sing a brief song to apply a small positive heal to your target and nearby party members.

This will play exactly like the old Sustaining Song did, but with no lingering heal over time. It's also only T2 in Warchanter, so not completely out of reach in the earliest portions of the game. If you'd still like that tasty tasty super long heal over time, it's right where Sustaining Song used to be, and if you want the same utility in a pinch Sustaining Song used to have you can sing this song instead

Behind the scenes, I'm swiping the actual effect and scaling 1:1, as well as its directional targeting and range, so your numbers and gameplay feel should be exactly the same before and after this shuffle. It's in Warchanter because there isn't room in Spellsinger and Boast is kinda dumb so we're just gonna bend some rules so you guys can get the best of both worlds.



Completely unrelated, when you use Bardic Inspiration it now randomly picks one of the available bardic music sound loops to play, so expect a little bit more musical variety when you're passing out buffs

so my spellsinging swashbuckler now has to spend points in warchanter to regain one of his signature spellsinging abilities? seriously? Not happy about that.

[btolson]

Maybe move the replacement for boast down to t1?

[Lynnabel]

Maybe move the replacement for boast down to t1?

This whole thing is a mess :P

The long and short of my dilemma is I actually really want the AoE song healing option to be available to every Bard, so it should go low in a tree, but Spellsinger has too much stuff in it... I'll do a longer writeup of the next draft when I'm in the office on Mon but tldr there's a way this works it's just gonna be weird :P appreciate all the hella rad feedback so far, you guys

[Mindos]

This right here demonstrates more clearly than anything I've ever seen just how clueless the DDO developers are. There are only a few hundred people left playing DDO, all of which are the hardest of the hard core hamster wheel grinders. The people who just want to run the same circles the same way as fast as they can go with as little friction as possible. The people that rarely even stop at a shrine, let alone wait around for any kind of buff, yet for a bard to buff a raid it will take nearly an entire minute! A dungeon party 30 seconds. It truly makes one wonder if the devs have ever seen how this game is played? How their endless XP grind necessitates it to be played. Do they seriously believe people in a party are going to stand around for 30 seconds waiting on bard buffs?

I could understand a 10 second AoE song that applied a nice mix of sustained stacking bard buffs to each individual within the AoE, "Gather 'round everyone and I'll sing you a song!" Having to individually target and track down each party member and sing them their own 5 second song is madness. This is progress? Fred wasn't listening when I sang that same song to Larry 5 seconds ago even though they were standing next to each other? The one good thing about current bard buffs is they are useless and therefore you never need waste your time. Music is AoE! It's sound. Sound is AoE!

Above all else I just can't wrap my mind around how the devs can possibly see individually clicking on 12 different players and singing each one of them a 5 second song every time the duration expires is in any way fun or engaging. (Actually I probably have to give them a bit of a break on this one as there's rarely 12 people on a server at the same time so it won't come up very often.) There is nothing fun about repeatedly handing out buffs, especially the stand around and wait kind.

WoW had a ton of buffs. Nearly every class had a buff to pass around. Some classes had several, and it was brutal. Select, click, select, click, select, click... you don't even want to read anymore than that imagine having to actually do it... after every shrine! The worst thing you could do to a bard is give him buffs that are actually useful enough for people to want them and them make him stand around for a minute after every shrine select, click, wait, select, click, wait, select, click, wait, select, click, wait.... I can't imagine the horror.

Progress is moving forward, not back 10 years in MMORPG history. Innovate! Come up with something new... something fun!

How about situational songs like death metal that drives the melee into a frenzy hitting twice as hard and twice as fast, while simultaneously negatively affecting the spell casters... perhaps cutting their normal damage by 75% but tripling their crits. An operatic aria that has pretty much the reverse effect. A march song to retreat and regroup where everyone's run speed is tripled and as long as they aren't getting hit their health regens at rapid pace.

Fun songs, that the bard sings with purpose. It's a bard, that's what they do. Just imagine a bard in actual combat, and then ramp it up to fantasy levels.

A bard SHOULD NOT be a barbarian with buffs. Sure, given the backwards design of DDO someone could make a barbarian with enough bard levels to have a few nice buffs, but someone playing a bard with the bard symbol should be doing bard things.

How about channeled single target songs during battle that can significantly boost another player's abilities, not like Turbine/SSG 1% buff type non-sense, but an actual like 250% damage for a melee player, but the song can only inspire them for like 15 seconds before tapering off and then their musical influence weakens to nothing and they can not be affected by it again for like 10-20 minutes. Instead of increased damage a bard could sing a single target song to make a player virtually indestructible for 15 seconds. A bard could sing to a sorc and the sorc's spells would be free, couldn't be saved against, and double damage for 15 seconds... imagine that! That would be fun!!! For both the player and the bard. That would make players want a bard in the party. That would make players want to be a bard to do bardy things, not just stand around for a minute buffing everyone and then go stand in the back with a bow and plink away.... BOOOORING.

If a bard could actually significantly influence other players during battle then click and forget party buffs wouldn't even be needed. In fact, if you give bards click and forget buffs that can make 11 players perform like 12, while also allowing them to be a powerful melee force that is nearly as effective as an actual melee class, then bards pretty much become mandatory in every group because you get an extra player for free. Click and forget buffs and auras don't capture the sense of of a bard, they are the antithesis of a bard. A bard shouldn't just passively make everyone stronger while they fight along beside them... that's not a bard. A bard inspires players through their music, they are too busy playing to fight. The DDO bard is Conan the barbarian wearing one of those one man band outfits... it's ridiculous.

When I win the MegaMillions $2 Billion jackpot, I'm buying DDO and hiring you!

[thunir]

This whole thing is a mess :P

The long and short of my dilemma is I actually really want the AoE song healing option to be available to every Bard, so it should go low in a tree, but Spellsinger has too much stuff in it... I'll do a longer writeup of the next draft when I'm in the office on Mon but tldr there's a way this works it's just gonna be weird :P appreciate all the hella rad feedback so far, you guys

Why can’t we just boost positive spell power. I think it would be great to see an enhancement that lends performance skill to positive sp. it would help all parties involved.

[Damian]

There's a sweet spot where the hold time doesn't clip an animation, we'll wrestle with it a little to try and shave some time off.

However, seriously, Bardic Inspiration isn't the only single shot "everyone wants this" buff. Clerics/FVS hand out Deatheard, tons of people toss out FoM (although Inspiration can do that now too), Artis tag people with Deadly Weapons. Buff swapping encourages class diversity. If anything, I kinda want MORE unique class buffs so there's more of a benefit to grouping up

You'll get a chance to preview this stuff on Lamannia, so definitely give it a try We got it all down to just one button, and that's kind of the best we can do without making everything part of the Aria.

Perhaps avec the quicken feat work with songs?

[Wipey]

Buff swapping encourages class diversity.

Only if you had realized this before you put speed, fom, blur, resists, mass dw or deadly on gear. Before ship buff resists.
It's just one of many things that made everything too samey and marginalized basic and core class advantages.

[Cantor]

While you are in the bard trees, can you take out eh spellpoint cost for some of the swashbuckling melee attacks?

Also I'd like to see some better singing options. It'd be best to make them all aoe, but shorter duration than single target imo.

[Memnir]

[Lynnabel]

Hey guys! This is gonna be a long post so bear with me~

Sustaining Song:

We're going to give it to every Bard as a feat at level 8, regardless of tree. There is a lot of gameplay difference between a Spellsinger and a Warchanter and a Swashbuckler, but all Bards can heal. Gating a very simple area heal to a specific tree cuts a lot of legitimate party playing Bards out from access to scaling area healing, and making it globally accessible makes it a lot easier for Bards to stay on top of group HP values.

Boast:

Fine, fine, you guys like it so it won't go away. It's back to what it was, no changes at all

Duration Scaling:

As of this revamp, Bard songs will last 5 minutes, plus 30 seconds per Bard level. Abilities that gave a percentage increase to the duration of your Bard songs will now add 1 effective Bard level for song duration per 10% the ability used to give. For example, a 20% increase will work out to be an extra minute of time, and a 60% increase will shake out to 3 minutes. We're also going to tag the new feat Improved Bardic Music to grant you an extra minute (2 effective levels) to your Songs, and sprinkle some more duration modification around Spellsinger and Fatesinger to bring up the duration for dedicated party players. Furthermore, anything that adds something to Bardic Inspiration from your trees (So Frolic, Prodigy rank 3, Spell Song Vigor) will add 1 effective Bard level.

We're going to aim it so that a Bard split will still have some buffer time (it's possible to get to 9.5 minutes of duration with just 3 levels of Bard with this system (5 minute base + 1.5 minutes from bard levels + 3 minutes from Lingering Songs in Spellsinger)) but a pure Bard that really shoots for the moon will end up comparable where they are right now in duration (5 minutes base + 10 minutes bard level + 3 minutes Lingering Songs + 1 minute Virtuoso + 1 minute Improved Bardic Music + 2.5 minutes Lasting Inspiration + 1 minute Echoes stance + 6 minutes from Spellsinger Cores (new) (not including the previously added 1m from Virtuoso) + 6 minutes from Fatesinger Cores (new) + 5.5 minutes from each Spellsinger ability that adds to Inspiration) means that you'll end up at 41 minutes in Fatesinger, 34 minutes in any other Destiny assuming no twists.

Please let us know what you think, but keep in mind that the duration scaling (whatever it ends up being) will likely not return to a percentage modifier. Percentage modifiers in DDO are messy, unintuitive, technically crunchy, and hard to display to a player. We're willing to push the numbers around in most directions, as long as Bard splits don't end up with no duration at all and pure Bards end up with more than enough to keep them happy

[Gabrael]

Hey guys! This is gonna be a long post so bear with me~

Sustaining Song:

We're going to give it to every Bard as a feat at level 8, regardless of tree. There is a lot of gameplay difference between a Spellsinger and a Warchanter and a Swashbuckler, but all Bards can heal. Gating a very simple area heal to a specific tree cuts a lot of legitimate party playing Bards out from access to scaling area healing, and making it globally accessible makes it a lot easier for Bards to stay on top of group HP values.

Boast:

Fine, fine, you guys like it so it won't go away. It's back to what it was, no changes at all

Duration Scaling:

As of this revamp, Bard songs will last 5 minutes, plus 30 seconds per Bard level. Abilities that gave a percentage increase to the duration of your Bard songs will now add 1 effective Bard level for song duration per 10% the ability used to give. For example, a 20% increase will work out to be an extra minute of time, and a 60% increase will shake out to 3 minutes. We're also going to tag the new feat Improved Bardic Music to grant you an extra minute (2 effective levels) to your Songs, and sprinkle some more duration modification around Spellsinger and Fatesinger to bring up the duration for dedicated party players. Furthermore, anything that adds something to Bardic Inspiration from your trees (So Frolic, Prodigy rank 3, Spell Song Vigor) will add 1 effective Bard level.

We're going to aim it so that a Bard split will still have some buffer time (it's possible to get to 9.5 minutes of duration with just 3 levels of Bard with this system (5 minute base + 1.5 minutes from bard levels + 3 minutes from Lingering Songs in Spellsinger)) but a pure Bard that really shoots for the moon will end up comparable where they are right now in duration (5 minutes base + 10 minutes bard level + 3 minutes Lingering Songs + 1 minute Virtuoso + 1 minute Improved Bardic Music + 2.5 minutes Lasting Inspiration + 1 minute Echoes stance + 6 minutes from Spellsinger Cores (new) (not including the previously added 1m from Virtuoso) + 6 minutes from Fatesinger Cores (new) + 5.5 minutes from each Spellsinger ability that adds to Inspiration) means that you'll end up at 41 minutes in Fatesinger, 34 minutes in any other Destiny assuming no twists.

Please let us know what you think, but keep in mind that the duration scaling (whatever it ends up being) will likely not return to a percentage modifier. Percentage modifiers in DDO are messy, unintuitive, technically crunchy, and hard to display to a player. We're willing to push the numbers around in most directions, as long as Bard splits don't end up with no duration at all and pure Bards end up with more than enough to keep them happy

this look delicious

[InfraRiot]

Hey guys! This is gonna be a long post so bear with me~

Sustaining Song:

We're going to give it to every Bard as a feat at level 8, regardless of tree. There is a lot of gameplay difference between a Spellsinger and a Warchanter and a Swashbuckler, but all Bards can heal. Gating a very simple area heal to a specific tree cuts a lot of legitimate party playing Bards out from access to scaling area healing, and making it globally accessible makes it a lot easier for Bards to stay on top of group HP values.

Boast:

Fine, fine, you guys like it so it won't go away. It's back to what it was, no changes at all

Duration Scaling:

As of this revamp, Bard songs will last 5 minutes, plus 30 seconds per Bard level. Abilities that gave a percentage increase to the duration of your Bard songs will now add 1 effective Bard level for song duration per 10% the ability used to give. For example, a 20% increase will work out to be an extra minute of time, and a 60% increase will shake out to 3 minutes. We're also going to tag the new feat Improved Bardic Music to grant you an extra minute (2 effective levels) to your Songs, and sprinkle some more duration modification around Spellsinger and Fatesinger to bring up the duration for dedicated party players. Furthermore, anything that adds something to Bardic Inspiration from your trees (So Frolic, Prodigy rank 3, Spell Song Vigor) will add 1 effective Bard level.

We're going to aim it so that a Bard split will still have some buffer time (it's possible to get to 9.5 minutes of duration with just 3 levels of Bard with this system (5 minute base + 1.5 minutes from bard levels + 3 minutes from Lingering Songs in Spellsinger)) but a pure Bard that really shoots for the moon will end up comparable where they are right now in duration (5 minutes base + 10 minutes bard level + 3 minutes Lingering Songs + 1 minute Virtuoso + 1 minute Improved Bardic Music + 2.5 minutes Lasting Inspiration + 1 minute Echoes stance + 6 minutes from Spellsinger Cores (new) (not including the previously added 1m from Virtuoso) + 6 minutes from Fatesinger Cores (new) + 5.5 minutes from each Spellsinger ability that adds to Inspiration) means that you'll end up at 41 minutes in Fatesinger, 34 minutes in any other Destiny assuming no twists.

Please let us know what you think, but keep in mind that the duration scaling (whatever it ends up being) will likely not return to a percentage modifier. Percentage modifiers in DDO are messy, unintuitive, technically crunchy, and hard to display to a player. We're willing to push the numbers around in most directions, as long as Bard splits don't end up with no duration at all and pure Bards end up with more than enough to keep them happy

This looks great! Thank you Lynnabel for all the bard quality of life changes in general!

However, how will the Duration Scaling affect Turn of the Tide in Fatesinger? Right now you can get it to last about 50 seconds to a minute with Lasting Inspiration and other modifiers. Oh and what about Fascinate and Enthrall as well?

I think the Duration Scaling devalues Lasting Inspiration because with all these other buffs another 2.5 minutes is probably not worth it. Perhaps something could be added to the feat to make it worth taking?