Early Look: Bard Changes

[eterna1_drag0n]

* Bards are supposed to add that special element to a group that takes it to the next level, unfortunately that special element is currently gathering for buffs for 1-2 mins. Currently, If multiple players want a single target song effect's, it just slows down the game play, which irritates the players.

Like the OP proposed there is no practical reason to make the songs single target anymore; as bards typically have ># song usages than they ever need, there are no negative trade offs to receiving a song, the bonus of single target songs generally only help a select few players anyway and/or are situational.

* Buff songs should not be personal serenades, they are loud and enthusiastic, not whispers in one person/players ear.

While some of the proposed changes to playing songs may help, it seems to be making additional bardic abilities and play for the bard more problematic. Auras, from my experience, are notoriously buggy in DDO. While the implementation may be a nice idea, the in game effect will most likely not be, Mobs will be aggro-ed to the bard. The larger the area of the Aura the more mobs will be aggro-ed, making the Aura buffs useless as they will have to be turned off to stop ragging the Mobs.

Instead of changing to an Aura why not just turn it into one song, Bardic Song/Inspiration and have all the effects from various sources, (enhancements, feats, destiny, etc.) auto applied or toggle-on effects that enhance the Bardic Song like suggested in the OP. Keep the current play animation (randomizing the song was a great suggestion) and no one would have to wait excessive amounts of time for 10-30 songs to be played anymore, 10-20 secs should be all it takes for everyone, no matter the party size. The proposed new song length is also a good suggestion.


Single target, everyone gets ******; Mass target, everyone gets Buffed.

Aura, bard gets ******; On cast no environmental issues


Make the right calls.

[Sproutecus]

This is a rad idea but completely infeasible technically. I like this line of thinking, though. What if holding it made your Aria linger twice as long?

How about you make changing the Aira specs part of the feat instead (if it is feasible)

Buffs last 90-120 sec
Pulse reduced from 10.7 sec to 9.6 or even 9 sec. That is a 10% or 18% boost in the temp HP regen.

That gives Bards a nice bump to their temp HP ticks (mainly a solo thing) and makes them more useful in parties. The feat would be useful for both pure support bard and solo bards. And it would give feat starved bards a reason to consider taking it.

[Ralmeth]

Oh, duh. What if it changed your Anthem frequency from 5 minutes to 3 minutes?

Great idea, thank you for the inspiration (pun intended) XD

Interesting, but the main issue is that I don't want to wield Epic Elyd, as the DPS is poor. Instead, I think it would be interesting if this was a swap item, that every bard would want to swap to before they play their songs. I personally don't have an Epic Elyd, but if Inspriing Echoes was made to be a good swap item for singing bard songs, then I would start hunting one down. Thus my suggestion.

Another option would be to go with your idea of increasing the frequency of Anthem, but only if you update Epic Elyd to be a competitive DPS weapon. Make this competitive DPS-wise with say, the level 20 Cutthroat blade that you updated recently, and that would likely make Epic Elyd my go-to weapon for my Bard in lower Epic levels. In fact, if you go this route, then that leaves open the possibility of making higher level epic and legendary weapons that have Inspiring Echoes, that would be sought after by bards to upgrade to.

[SpiritofAlba]

This may have been said already - haven’t read every single post, but...

Could bards have a real choice of tunes? Whole new world of cosmetic possibilities... = fun + revenue

[Kilgrave]

Oh, duh. What if it changed your Anthem frequency from 5 minutes to 3 minutes?

Great idea, thank you for the inspiration (pun intended) XD

Can you add constant attack speed in Warchanter cores 3%-5% ?

[Chilldude]

The current animation is 4.7 seconds, 12 times is 56.4 seconds to fully buff an entire raid group with every single song for the full duration.

This right here demonstrates more clearly than anything I've ever seen just how clueless the DDO developers are. There are only a few hundred people left playing DDO, all of which are the hardest of the hard core hamster wheel grinders. The people who just want to run the same circles the same way as fast as they can go with as little friction as possible. The people that rarely even stop at a shrine, let alone wait around for any kind of buff, yet for a bard to buff a raid it will take nearly an entire minute! A dungeon party 30 seconds. It truly makes one wonder if the devs have ever seen how this game is played? How their endless XP grind necessitates it to be played. Do they seriously believe people in a party are going to stand around for 30 seconds waiting on bard buffs?

I could understand a 10 second AoE song that applied a nice mix of sustained stacking bard buffs to each individual within the AoE, "Gather 'round everyone and I'll sing you a song!" Having to individually target and track down each party member and sing them their own 5 second song is madness. This is progress? Fred wasn't listening when I sang that same song to Larry 5 seconds ago even though they were standing next to each other? The one good thing about current bard buffs is they are useless and therefore you never need waste your time. Music is AoE! It's sound. Sound is AoE!

Above all else I just can't wrap my mind around how the devs can possibly see individually clicking on 12 different players and singing each one of them a 5 second song every time the duration expires is in any way fun or engaging. (Actually I probably have to give them a bit of a break on this one as there's rarely 12 people on a server at the same time so it won't come up very often.) There is nothing fun about repeatedly handing out buffs, especially the stand around and wait kind.

WoW had a ton of buffs. Nearly every class had a buff to pass around. Some classes had several, and it was brutal. Select, click, select, click, select, click... you don't even want to read anymore than that imagine having to actually do it... after every shrine! The worst thing you could do to a bard is give him buffs that are actually useful enough for people to want them and them make him stand around for a minute after every shrine select, click, wait, select, click, wait, select, click, wait, select, click, wait.... I can't imagine the horror.

Progress is moving forward, not back 10 years in MMORPG history. Innovate! Come up with something new... something fun!

How about situational songs like death metal that drives the melee into a frenzy hitting twice as hard and twice as fast, while simultaneously negatively affecting the spell casters... perhaps cutting their normal damage by 75% but tripling their crits. An operatic aria that has pretty much the reverse effect. A march song to retreat and regroup where everyone's run speed is tripled and as long as they aren't getting hit their health regens at rapid pace.

Fun songs, that the bard sings with purpose. It's a bard, that's what they do. Just imagine a bard in actual combat, and then ramp it up to fantasy levels.

A bard SHOULD NOT be a barbarian with buffs. Sure, given the backwards design of DDO someone could make a barbarian with enough bard levels to have a few nice buffs, but someone playing a bard with the bard symbol should be doing bard things.

How about channeled single target songs during battle that can significantly boost another player's abilities, not like Turbine/SSG 1% buff type non-sense, but an actual like 250% damage for a melee player, but the song can only inspire them for like 15 seconds before tapering off and then their musical influence weakens to nothing and they can not be affected by it again for like 10-20 minutes. Instead of increased damage a bard could sing a single target song to make a player virtually indestructible for 15 seconds. A bard could sing to a sorc and the sorc's spells would be free, couldn't be saved against, and double damage for 15 seconds... imagine that! That would be fun!!! For both the player and the bard. That would make players want a bard in the party. That would make players want to be a bard to do bardy things, not just stand around for a minute buffing everyone and then go stand in the back with a bow and plink away.... BOOOORING.

If a bard could actually significantly influence other players during battle then click and forget party buffs wouldn't even be needed. In fact, if you give bards click and forget buffs that can make 11 players perform like 12, while also allowing them to be a powerful melee force that is nearly as effective as an actual melee class, then bards pretty much become mandatory in every group because you get an extra player for free. Click and forget buffs and auras don't capture the sense of of a bard, they are the antithesis of a bard. A bard shouldn't just passively make everyone stronger while they fight along beside them... that's not a bard. A bard inspires players through their music, they are too busy playing to fight. The DDO bard is Conan the barbarian wearing one of those one man band outfits... it's ridiculous.

[CrispyonInside]

Elyd Edge. Inspiring Echos.

Maybe a mix of Gwylan's Blade (songblade) and the Lantern Ring (Radiant Glory).

Give it some unique (music) bonus to perform that you can't get anywhere else. Then "Resonating Cord" or whatever cool name for the ability to give 4d6 sonic on harmful spellcast.

[Hakushi]

Maybe the Elyd Edge could apply the Bardic Inspiration to everyone in the party that is near you, but it would have to reduce the number of players affected from the pool of songs so as an example, we are 6 in a party, I use the song with the weapon on, it buffs everyone, and uses 6 songs, otherwise, I would have to sing 6 times for everyone in the party. If I have less than 6 songs left, it would randomly buff the number of players equal to the number of remaining songs.

[Damian]

One change that would be great would be to make Enthrallment use the cores in spellsinger (so that it can fascinate oozes, undeads and constructs) like the fascinate ability.

It also would be nice if it could get the vermin types if combined with Fatesinger Music of the Spider Queen.

this is something that should have happened along time ago IMHO

[Morroiel]

Why did bard songs stop being as useful?
They failed to scale with the rapid power creep from items, epic levels, etc.

How do we fix bard songs to be useful for the foreseeable future?
Instead of giving flat bonuses, we scale the meaningfulness of the buffs with the numbers in game - providing a static multiplier. For example:

Scenario A: Fix it by increasing flat bonuses
Songs give +8 to damage. Let's say DPS char 1 has a +100 to damage already. This +8 represents a 8% increase.
Update 45 / Expansion #4 comes along and ups that bonus to +200. That +8 is now a 4% increase. (we have to do something to make up the 4%)

Scenario B: Fix it by swapping over to a multiplier bonus
Songs give +8% to damage. Let's say DPS char 1 has a +100 to damage already. This +8% represents a 8% increase or +8.
Update 45 / Expansion #4 comes along and ups that bonus to +200. That +8% is now a +16 increase and is still +8%.

Obviously Scenario B is much easier to maintain - its the fix it and forget about it solution. Scenario A only works if you are going to introduce changes alongside the powercreep in the form of buffing the numbers of the base features, introducing items that augment songs, or other types of fixes.

I don't see you guys sticking with scenario A and providing meaningful increases as you throw out more and more power creep. In fact, I'd wager that even if you buff the songs to be meaningful now (this is questionable with the numbers posted - in fact in some cases its actually a nerf) then they'll be outdated a month or two post next expansion.

[Thunder-Monkey]

Had time to think and here's my two-penneth:

I really appreciate the thought you've put into this, and the fact that you're making changes now to make it easier to implement changes to bard stuff in the future. I'm excited to see what you have in mind...

I have played bards for 4 years and the usefulness of songs has deteriorated over the years as character power has increased. Bard songs have not kept up with this increase so now my bard rarely sings anything except inspire excellence (and competence on a trapper). The buffs from songs seem negligible in today's game.

My pure bard switched over to warchanter from spellsinger as the freezing effects add far more to the party/raid than songs now. If songs were made more interesting and powerful then I may consider reverting to a singer but until then a freezy warchanter is much more fun and useful to the party.

I used to enjoy the CC aspect of bards but this has been largely negated (at high levels) by the influx of new resistant mobs (scarecrows, blights, red-names in DoJ etc) especially for warchanters who don't have the cores from spellsinger to fascinate anything non-humanoid. So now i just freeze everything I can as its my only viable option.

I hope this is just the first step in bringing music back to the party.

Thanks

TM

[glmfw1]

Can the OP be updated to say "in the area of the Aria" rather than just "in the Aria" - no characters are literally notes being sung by the bard.

[Rull]

This right here demonstrates more clearly than anything I've ever seen just how clueless the DDO developers are. There are only a few hundred people left playing DDO, all of which are the hardest of the hard core hamster wheel grinders. The people who just want to run the same circles the same way as fast as they can go with as little friction as possible. The people that rarely even stop at a shrine, let alone wait around for any kind of buff, yet for a bard to buff a raid it will take nearly an entire minute! A dungeon party 30 seconds. It truly makes one wonder if the devs have ever seen how this game is played? How their endless XP grind necessitates it to be played. Do they seriously believe people in a party are going to stand around for 30 seconds waiting on bard buffs?

I could understand a 10 second AoE song that applied a nice mix of sustained stacking bard buffs to each individual within the AoE, "Gather 'round everyone and I'll sing you a song!" Having to individually target and track down each party member and sing them their own 5 second song is madness. This is progress? Fred wasn't listening when I sang that same song to Larry 5 seconds ago even though they were standing next to each other? The one good thing about current bard buffs is they are useless and therefore you never need waste your time. Music is AoE! It's sound. Sound is AoE!

Above all else I just can't wrap my mind around how the devs can possibly see individually clicking on 12 different players and singing each one of them a 5 second song every time the duration expires is in any way fun or engaging. (Actually I probably have to give them a bit of a break on this one as there's rarely 12 people on a server at the same time so it won't come up very often.) There is nothing fun about repeatedly handing out buffs, especially the stand around and wait kind.

WoW had a ton of buffs. Nearly every class had a buff to pass around. Some classes had several, and it was brutal. Select, click, select, click, select, click... you don't even want to read anymore than that imagine having to actually do it... after every shrine! The worst thing you could do to a bard is give him buffs that are actually useful enough for people to want them and them make him stand around for a minute after every shrine select, click, wait, select, click, wait, select, click, wait, select, click, wait.... I can't imagine the horror.

Progress is moving forward, not back 10 years in MMORPG history. Innovate! Come up with something new... something fun!

How about situational songs like death metal that drives the melee into a frenzy hitting twice as hard and twice as fast, while simultaneously negatively affecting the spell casters... perhaps cutting their normal damage by 75% but tripling their crits. An operatic aria that has pretty much the reverse effect. A march song to retreat and regroup where everyone's run speed is tripled and as long as they aren't getting hit their health regens at rapid pace.

Fun songs, that the bard sings with purpose. It's a bard, that's what they do. Just imagine a bard in actual combat, and then ramp it up to fantasy levels.

A bard SHOULD NOT be a barbarian with buffs. Sure, given the backwards design of DDO someone could make a barbarian with enough bard levels to have a few nice buffs, but someone playing a bard with the bard symbol should be doing bard things.

How about channeled single target songs during battle that can significantly boost another player's abilities, not like Turbine/SSG 1% buff type non-sense, but an actual like 250% damage for a melee player, but the song can only inspire them for like 15 seconds before tapering off and then their musical influence weakens to nothing and they can not be affected by it again for like 10-20 minutes. Instead of increased damage a bard could sing a single target song to make a player virtually indestructible for 15 seconds. A bard could sing to a sorc and the sorc's spells would be free, couldn't be saved against, and double damage for 15 seconds... imagine that! That would be fun!!! For both the player and the bard. That would make players want a bard in the party. That would make players want to be a bard to do bardy things, not just stand around for a minute buffing everyone and then go stand in the back with a bow and plink away.... BOOOORING.

If a bard could actually significantly influence other players during battle then click and forget party buffs wouldn't even be needed. In fact, if you give bards click and forget buffs that can make 11 players perform like 12, while also allowing them to be a powerful melee force that is nearly as effective as an actual melee class, then bards pretty much become mandatory in every group because you get an extra player for free. Click and forget buffs and auras don't capture the sense of of a bard, they are the antithesis of a bard. A bard shouldn't just passively make everyone stronger while they fight along beside them... that's not a bard. A bard inspires players through their music, they are too busy playing to fight. The DDO bard is Conan the barbarian wearing one of those one man band outfits... it's ridiculous.

I like this dude. At least he's passionate.
Even though the implementation might be out of the scope of this change, it's good to take a step back and look at things from this perspective.
(even though I think the 250%-philosophy is even worse than the 5%. but there are more numbers between 5% and 250%)

[Ultramaetche1]

I think an important thing to consider is that the reason so few different Songs were used is their effects being pretty uniquely bad. Approaching this from the angle from which we're trying to maneuver to, which is to say that each song is worth singing on each person, it works out.

You guys have stated you wish to REDUCE THE NUMBER OF BUTTONS, but with this pass you are simply making songs that were previously neglected into songs worth using, whilst also INCREASING THE NUMBER OF BUTTONS we need to press to get all the buffs.

1) Yes, they are more powerful than in the current iteration of the game.

2) No, you are NOT reducing the number of buttons we need to hit, because we now have more stuff worth hitting.

And, since you guys have stated the reasoning behind the pass was to solve #2. I think you guys as a whole have missed the mark with the pass.

On one hand the players are reading from the devs "We want bards to have less buttons to hit" on the other we have "we want them to hit those buttons MORE than they currently have to"

All I'm saying is that while the buffs are more powerful, we have longer to stand around idle in the beginning of quests and raids for buffs to be handed out. What I would like to see is the animation shortened, or sped up, to resolve in 2-3 seconds instead of the 4.7 you quoted previously. That way the TIME spent buffing is relatively consistent to live servers today.

Are animation changes to song singing on the table at all, or are you dead set on locking people into listening to 56.4 seconds of bard songs in a raid, or half that in a party?

Could there be a toggle-able stance that allows you to skip or shorten animations if you do not wish to have an audio clip play for each song?

[IlmerSilverhilt]

Once per rest clicking this item removes the cooldowns of everyone within a certain radius.

Caster using Welsspring, Ranger using Manyshot, Pally hitting defense boost, click Elyd Edge and they get to go again! Would be quite powerfull but a nice perk I would be using, could make for some tactical gameplay.

Mesmerita

[jandragarious]

Score



Yes, 12 songs, 1 for each party member. Keep in mind that Sustaining Song now lasts significantly longer, and is no longer sung individually. All of your Spellsinger songs are applied with one use of Bardic Inspiration. In a raid group, you will only ever need 12 songs to buff every member with everything - no matter how many different effects, spellsinger songs, or ride-along buffs you have.

What about having an AOE song that applies the individual version of the song to all nearby party at the cost of multiple songs uses. It could be triggered by the same sort of mechanic that allows standard hirelings to only be summoned by the quest entrance and spells to be prepared after resting at a shrine so as to only be used under those conditions.

[Equatis]

[Zeklijan]

I'm not a bard pro but it does sound dull for everyone to have to wait a full minute each time the group shrines for the bard to apply all their songs to everyone.

I feel 30s (halved the animation time) woud be alot more reasonable.

Also, it looks like tiefling will be a bard and not a sorcerer. Which is too bad, harper bard and tiefling sorc is alot more thematic than a thiefling bard.

[Windaar]

Also, it looks like tiefling will be a bard and not a sorcerer. Which is too bad, harper bard and tiefling sorc is alot more thematic than a thiefling bard.

Harpers don't have to be bards, though. that is the name of an organization. Tiefling, however, is a race. I look forward to seeing how they work as bards, personally.

[Lynnabel]

Are animation changes to song singing on the table at all, or are you dead set on locking people into listening to 56.4 seconds of bard songs in a raid, or half that in a party?

There's a sweet spot where the hold time doesn't clip an animation, we'll wrestle with it a little to try and shave some time off.

However, seriously, Bardic Inspiration isn't the only single shot "everyone wants this" buff. Clerics/FVS hand out Deatheard, tons of people toss out FoM (although Inspiration can do that now too), Artis tag people with Deadly Weapons. Buff swapping encourages class diversity. If anything, I kinda want MORE unique class buffs so there's more of a benefit to grouping up

You'll get a chance to preview this stuff on Lamannia, so definitely give it a try We got it all down to just one button, and that's kind of the best we can do without making everything part of the Aria.