Early Look: Bard Changes

[sherbertmachine]

Nice changes and unexpected too. You're tackling one of the biggest gripes about Bards...too many songs to sing and nobody sticks around. Though i feel you aren't addressing the other big gripe about Bards...the buffs are insignificant. Yes you made them stack better but they don't scream "hey lets leave this slot open for a Bard instead of another dps" in a raid. With how over the top this game has become with buffs it's a little silly to pull punches on an unpopular class.

I really hope these changes are just the first of more changes to Bards like looking into their enhancements. Spell Singer could use some help, maybe more more utility arcane/divine spells to grab from or giving them CHA to attack/damage (capstone or T5) to help them in melee a little more. I love playing a Spell Singer but feel beyond providing weaker/less diverse CC and spot heals i can't contribute much (though the song changes help).

Am i reading it wrong or are the aoe songs now only work in the aura? If so this is not good news for Bards where they were only tolerated since you can apply a song and party members can run off. Also to bring up what others are bringing up, Inspiring Echoes needs something unique back. Something that would be useful on non-weapon items as well should you want to ever use the effect again. Maybe a stacking mana efficiency (will need to be at least 10% to justify wasting the slot) to all players when in range or something tasty.

[GramercyRiff]

So if we're talking Bard changes now, is this multi-stage melee pass over?

[azrael4h]

Am i reading it wrong or are the aoe songs now only work in the aura? If so this is not good news for Bards where they were only tolerated since you can apply a song and party members can run off. Also to bring up what others are bringing up, Inspiring Echoes needs something unique back. Something that would be useful on non-weapon items as well should you want to ever use the effect again. Maybe a stacking mana efficiency (will need to be at least 10% to justify wasting the slot) to all players when in range or something tasty.

No, the songs will work (except sustaining, which they intend to make worthless) as before; an AoE buff sang one every x minutes. The Aria stuff (the Warchanter chants, etc) are aura-based, as they are live, but the regular songs still remain regardless of how far the player is from the Bard.

[Silverleafeon]

Perhaps you should consider some sort of bard song that simply does an area of effect single use heal burst to make up for the substaining song swapping from area to single target. It could be placed into one of the trees and scale with class levels and epic levels?

It could even be acquired as part of the level 15 bardic feat which currently seems on the weak side for a whole feat.

[droid327]

Actually, bards now have one button - their Bardic Inspiration. They press that one button one time per party member. That one button applies ALL of their songs.

I think what he's suggesting is just have the song apply all 3 Amplification effects in an AOE on everyone.

If what's causing it to be tricky is having it try to decide what Amp effect to apply...then why make it choose? Repair and Negative Amp wont do any good if your Racial Modifier for those types is 0. The only difference would be for WF/BF/Self-Forged, where they'd get a bonus to Repair and Positive healing...but is that really a deal breaker? Not like any spell can benefit from both at the same time anyway.

[Lynnabel]

So if we're talking Bard changes now, is this multi-stage melee pass over?

This is sorta something on the side we figured we could squeeze in. I wouldn't put this anywhere on the timeline of greater archetype balance. We have a lot of new bandwidth to tackle some big and needed systems projects, but sometimes little things like this one can make the cut

Am i reading it wrong or are the aoe songs now only work in the aura? If so this is not good news for Bards where they were only tolerated since you can apply a song and party members can run off. Also to bring up what others are bringing up, Inspiring Echoes needs something unique back. Something that would be useful on non-weapon items as well should you want to ever use the effect again. Maybe a stacking mana efficiency (will need to be at least 10% to justify wasting the slot) to all players when in range or something tasty.

Yes, the AoE songs are now only an aura, rather than their original single shot AoE. However, their range (even without the double range aura from Warchanter) is pretty huge, and they linger for quite some time after application (which happens every 10 seconds). Ideally, with the spicy stuff that now sticks to players for a lot longer, Bards will be valued both for their persistence AND for the fire and forgettability of their single target buffs.

Inspiring Echoes can absolutely definitely be a unique aspect of the Aria, or modify one of the Arias to be slightly better. One of the Spellsinger Songs (Spell Song Trance) already grants stacking spell point reduction, so if you think of something else unique and radical let me know.

Perhaps you should consider some sort of bard song that simply does an area of effect single use heal burst to make up for the substaining song swapping from area to single target. It could be placed into one of the trees and scale with class levels and epic levels?

We discussed sideswiping Boast from Warchanter for this, great idea. We'll need to discuss it a little further.

It could even be acquired as part of the level 15 bardic feat which currently seems on the weak side for a whole feat.

Ideally, the feat is there not as a total gamechanger must-have, but as something that support-oriented Bards can pick up if they would like to fully dedicate themselves to supporting others. I do not think it's the right place for active functionality, and I worry that overpumping it will make it too attractive to Bards that don't necessarily fill that party role.

I think what he's suggesting is just have the song apply all 3 Amplification effects in an AOE on everyone.

If what's causing it to be tricky is having it try to decide what Amp effect to apply...then why make it choose? Repair and Negative Amp wont do any good if your Racial Modifier for those types is 0. The only difference would be for WF/BF/Self-Forged, where they'd get a bonus to Repair and Positive healing...but is that really a deal breaker? Not like any spell can benefit from both at the same time anyway.

The Healing/Repair/Negative amp is part of Inspire Greatness, which automatically hits all of your party members in a large AoE around you every 10 seconds. The Heal over Time component of Sustaining Song is what needs special attention to avoid sticking the wrong heal over time in the wrong place.

[Tuxedoman96]

This would make it much harder to use. Remember, there is only one Song now, and Sustaining Song is part of it. It's no longer a short heal over time, it's a part of your singular ability Bardic Inspiration. We want to give them less buttons, not more.

So out of curiosity, is there a reason that sustaining song can't stay an AoE that can be sung to 3 different HoT effects? Also, how many buttons are we supposed to have? I mean, you've already significantly reduced the amount of buttons we have to press. I think having to sing the same song up to 12 times is not really helpful. Keep in mind that if someone is singing that song that many times, he's probably not doing it for the Inspire Competence. With the Sustaining Song as an AoE, you sing the song a max of 3 times in or out of a fight (1 for each type of healing), saving a lot of time in the process and conserving many more songs if, as stated before, the healing is the primary reason at the time for using a song.

[Tuxedoman96]

Unchanged, currently. I'll standardize the duration and actually give it the fear immunity it's supposed to have, but if it does end up changing it'll become an Inspiration ride-along buff.

I'd rather keep the Heroism song as is. Having an AoE +4 to saves, skills, fear immunity, etc. is a great boon that I think many would be willing to wait the 2-3 secs to have.

[Tuxedoman96]

Actually, bards now have one button - their Bardic Inspiration. They press that one button one time per party member. That one button applies ALL of their songs.

Would you mind explaining what parts of the songs are redundant?

That's also assuming that players would care to have all those songs on every character in the party. A +4 bonus to skills might not be necessary or even desired for every member. Inspire Heroics might not be as necessary for the casters and ranged in the back as they are for the melee and tanks. However, healing is desired for everyone due to the fact that even stray shots can seriously compromise the party members' disposition in the battle. Even if it doesn't last as long, having a mass HoT can really aid in a battle vs having to apply it one at a time (eventually the effects going to end, so we should take this ability into combat knowing this and be able to effectively apply it).

[Silverleafeon]

We discussed sideswiping Boast from Warchanter for this, great idea. We'll need to discuss it a little further.

Bards with the current sustaining ability are simply using it to "Top off the Party Hit Points" after a big fight while the group moves to the next battle.

A simple large area of effect burst will fit the same function while still allowing the long term single target healing buff (the long term heals are something all tanks and healers will certainly appreciate).

Ideally, the feat is there not as a total gamechanger must-have, but as something that support-oriented Bards can pick up if they would like to fully dedicate themselves to supporting others. I do not think it's the right place for active functionality, and I worry that overpumping it will make it too attractive to Bards that don't necessarily fill that party role.

So, its more like Skill Focus Search might be to a dedicated trapper?

Anyway, likely good not to trapped a AoE song heal underneath a feat tax.

Another advantage of a AoE heal song is that it might have greater radius than a normal mass cure.
It would give Epic Bards something to use those extra song upon as two dozen songs are not uncommon at cap.


Really interested in how long the Sp regenerating song lasts and hoping it lasts longer than the old version.
Hp & Sp long term regernation such as 1 min plus 30 seconds per bard level would certainly be impressive.

[BoBoDaClown]

I only play bards - have done for years.

The warchanter cap - how is the DC worked out? That detail is really important. Duration? Cooldown?

I like any reduction in song time/application - it's a killer and not fun. I might be misunderstanding how all this works, but can we have an aoe version of the songs that has any problematic songs stripped out (so only one sing for whole raid/group) and a single target version?

I feel like the buffs needs buffing. Mathematically I feel a group with a bard should be slightly better than a group filled with dps, offsetting the fact that the bard may be a weaker in terms of individual dps. This was the case years ago, maybe around the old epic system, where people had worked out that once you had 'x' additional members in a party, it was more beneficial to have a bard than another pure dps due to their buffs applying to each member.

Generally:

SWASHBUCKER
Are in a good place - they are very playable. However, when they were introduced it was stated that they were to be what the rest of the class passes would be balanced against. Well, they now lag behind as everything got significantly buffed. Perhaps incidental increases in bards buffing will help improve them some. I'm actually loath to improve Swashbuckler, because I actually think they were developed as OP, but since then everything has become OP from my perspective.

WARCHANTER
Are they basically a CC tree now. Hopefully this new capstone will make their CC topline. They should also provide topline buffs- this is where I would like to see buff improvements.

SPELLSINGER
My main was a CC/Heal spellsinger for literally 10ish years. I gave up on it this year. The dps and CC is too limited in epic Reaper play - basically a joke to play. They need significant work. Remove the selectors, allow all the SLAs to be chosen. Improve Reverberate. Improve dps massively. People are complaining about sorc dps and there is no comparison. Improve the CC casting options - allow them to CC a variety of mobs. Basically have a Spellsinger bring: OK dps, decent buffing, decent CC, decent healing to a party. Not topline, but works in all those roles if geared/speced.

FATESINGER
Needs a massive improvement. Don't necessarily improve the bard's dps with this - other trees do that. Improve the buffing/debuffing/CC - make it really bardie. Change the capstone to buffing/debuffing. More flavour than a dps capstone.

ANOTHER THOUGHT
I would like it if there were non-swf melee options. Even if swf is the best, it would be good to see some builds/situations which would benefit from the other melee styles. Like, how TWF used to be advantageous due to the fact that the damage bonuses from inspire courage basically doubled by applying to each hand. I don't know if this is possible. Perhaps Howl of the North could do something interesting that can't be used with SWF. Howl of the North could keep the current bonus for SWF, but have a selector that would be more powerful for THF and then TWF.

[bbqzor]

Hello! We're here today to give you a first look at plans for significant changes to Bard coming up soon! This is pretty early in the process, so things are still subject to change; we'd love to know what you think

Some suggestions, while youre tinkering:

- Make Insults Enhancement in Swashbuckler tree have a faster animation; its not really playable as is.

- Make Enthrallment in the Spellsinger tree a rider to Fascinate. We need Fascinate, the core Music Maker mods, and Enthrall to all land on all mob types together. Is okay for Fascinate and Enthrall to land on the same mob; if it is hit once Fascinate can just break and Enthrall can check to hold. No need for any complicated effect replacement code, spam is totally okay. This will allow Enthrall to upgrade the cores, preventing the need to sing different songs which have different effects on groups of mixed mob types. TLDR, Enthrall is pretty pointless as is, and it should be substantial: do a Fascinate ride-along pass similar to the buff songs for crowd control.

- Include Music of the Spider Queen from Fatesinger to the above cc-song pass.

- Fix Echos of Shiradi in Fatesinger to actually increase ranged attack speed. Specifying the type and ensuring it displays on the character sheet and combat log would also be good.

- Fix Turn of the Tide's text to be accurate regarding duration, and consider adjusting the effect to work on bosses. If that means lowering the amount, thats acceptable. For example, if its too much, remove the light damage and keep the sonic, and drop the 40% dmg to 30 (like other action boosts). Bards do not need help against trash; they already have many tools for this from cc songs, spells, party buffs, dance, charm, etc. Turn should help when the chips are down against targets they lack other tools to deal with; like bosses immune to all the usual bardic tricks.

- Related, on Turn the Tide, adding some sort of defensive ability (like a heal-when-missed guard) would fit the name, and be thematic. Bard tanking red named because stuff happens? Hit this, get healed when missed encouraging use of bard-like tanking via dancing dodge not prr/hp soak, and do more damage to boss: literally turn the tide. Nothing else is heal-when-missed and you want to be sure the ability is not a broadband self heal. Let them show off when this clicky is on, by being the bard and flexing into another role as needed for a short time. If not a new effect like heal-when-missed, at least something basic like a 100 temp hp every few sec similar to fvs capstone or warlock aura might suffice.

- Include Inspire Excellence on the Aria list. No reason to keep it as its own song. Especially being an epic feat which requires 15 bard, let it enjoy the QOL of passive-on.

- Define what the Active Bardic Past Life feat will do. Add old version like Fatesinger? Add +1 atk/dmg? Add 10% duration or three song uses? Count as Anthem, the Feat version? Sparkles? Everyone likes sparkles.

- Consider including Cha to Atk somewhere. Perhaps with that new Heroic Feat which is definitely lackluster. Right now it pushes PDK race a bit too hard. Having the option wont make PDK any less useful (theyll potentially save 12ish ap and an ehancement tree), but it wont make them the "only" choice in town either.

- Haven't kept up on the bug status for some of the old bard issues (various song duration scaling, effect scaling like sonic guard/procs with sonic spellpower, enchantment caster level etc). Might check the wiki and just be sure the listed bugs are fixed, especially for fatesinger.

Hope that helps. Interesting pass as listed. Some of this is a nerf (total dmg off courage is down, sustaining song needing individual targets hurts during mid-event clutch when you cant immediately get everyone going, etc). But overall it is a huge quality of life improvement, and making the stacking a little easier will make playing bards more accessible. I think if the push towards accessible, high quality of life play is followed through on, this could be a great success. Thanks.

[Niminae]

[*]Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard

I just way to say first and foremost and without burying the message in a lengthy post regarding the entirety of the changes that this is a design direction of which I thoroughly approve. A game should never have PITA mechanics associated with it, especially when those PITA are in no way performing any real function other than being a PITA.

Most of the PITA that bother me quite a lot are Rogue/trapping related, and I don't even play rogues all that often. Auto-attack being toggled off on a Search or when you place a trap, failing to disable because you turned 20° away from the trap, etc. There are more of course, those are just the ones that I was able to recall on short notice.

[MasterKernel]

Which one Steel? Bonus or Score, there's a BIG difference. (Assuming 90 CHA at 30: +80 HP vs +180 HP)

Score

Yes, Lynnabel, give us the score to all of the Bard's music. :-D

[Vanhooger]

Since you guys are looking at bard, please, please, do something to make a spellsinger worth is weight in party & raid. Give it something unique & desired. Spellsinger is so far and behind anything else in this game. Thank you.

[janave]

Bards as the ultimate loot blessers?

+loot levels
+loot quality
+static loot chance

I will surely want a bard in every raid party if they can give another +1% chance for each party member to pull an item :P


Oh and everything he said

Some suggestions, while youre tinkering:

[cru121]

Since you guys are looking at bard, please, please, do something to make a spellsinger worth is weight in party & raid. Give it something unique & desired. Spellsinger is so far and behind anything else in this game. Thank you.

Imho a good start would be to allow Spellsingers to bypass CC immunity of targets that they can fascinate.
* Daze undead with Sonic Blast - check
* Use Suggestion SLA on that Mummy - check
* Hold Monster that Warforged Titan - check
* Soundburst that pool of Ooze - check

Or give bards other spells to do that, but as we heard, spells are expensive.

[Feal]

I was dreaming Bard update for a log time... Expectations are high tho

I like the permasingin part of this post, but i don't see anything about improving the trees..

Examples:

Doublestrike/doubleshot costs 6 ap.. really?
Swashbuckler utilities are much expansive, without counting that on that tree there is only cha to dmg, would be nice to have a cha to hit option (balance with harper and falconry?), Otherwise you are limited on going pdk and using only a certain kind of weapons for cha to dmg

Spells needs improvement too, would be nice the possibility of a sonic caster (sonic burst in fatesinger for example?) And maybe ad some spells (maybe also some lvl7 spells?)

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO MAKE BARD SIMILAR TO PEN AND PAPER YOU SHOULD CONSIDER TO ADD LAWFUL ALIGNMENT!!!

Monks sing Mantra 8)

(I know is selfish this LAST comment, but pls at lest consider the rest, i'm very serious about it

[BoBoDaClown]

Yes,

Cha to hit makes a lot of sense.

[lLockehart]

Music bonuses? Yes please.

This looks like a very much needed change in the right direction. Very pleased.

The concept of the Aria, in specific, is an amazing evolution on the current bard mechanics and I couldn't have devised a better way to keep the songs rolling - I wasn't too sure if it could be implement in DDO and I'm super glad it can, it's the best thing and fittingly named to boot. I would... wish for the usual bonuses to have a more friendly scaling but it's okay as is. Bardic inspiration as well, a deft and swift solution.

Very good job.