Early Look: Bard Changes

[cacyreus]

Sustaining Song's splash heal has a new home in the place Boast used to live in Warchanter, so if you like the splash heal on cast you can get the best of both worlds - a massively increased duration (and undead and repair channels) for the heal over time, and an easier to access splash heal lower in a tree.

That was a quick response, thanks! I am really surprised with the amount of feedback in the thread. So much, so fast!

From the several comments you've made regarding sustaining song looks like you like the change. However, more people are complaining about this, listen to the crowd!
Changing Boast to provide splash heals is a very poor way to deal with this. Sustaining Song costs 2 AP, if the costs remain the same Bards will have to spend now 5 AP to have the same benefits as before. Furthermore, they will be forced to play an additional song, that also has to go somewhere in a quickbar... the commodity value is decreasing more and more. Also, keep in mind that even if the costs were reduced to 1 AP for each song to make it cost the same as in live, they would still be invested in different trees, which interferes with the choice of other enhancements. I am not sure it will be possible to maintain similar AP splits in both trees, which will force Bards to drop something else to get Boast even if the total cost of Boast and Sustaining Song is 2 AP.
So, please take your time to figure this one out, because it the current solution is very poor.
One last thing about this: add values to the description of the song... how much are these healing?

Capstone: Steestar says that it needed to be changed since these were music bonus and everything is already music bonus in the new version, which is true. HOWEVER, the changes proposed for 18th level core and captsone remove to 2 damage that were not added elsewhere. These should remain in the cores, makes no sense to take this damage away! Furthermore, the current version of Warchanter capstone provides +5 attack and +5 damage, again this damage to weapons that has not been put elsewhere. I understand that the new mechanic also gives damage, but its damage in a different way that also requires a song use. What this means is, Warchanter DPS is being nerfed substantially! These changes as they are take away a total of 7 to damage!!. But its not just the damage, the attack too!! The new version of the Inspire Courage gives 3 more to attack than the old version, but Warchanter is losing 5 in the Capstone. So, its still a loss of 2 to attack!! I understand that Inspire courage buffs everyone and not just the Bard, but bard mechanics already include self buffs, so this should not be a problem if you opt to do it like this. Another option is to add some of the attack and damage being lost to Inspire Courage in the 18th level core and in the capstone, which you add +1 to attack and damage too. This way, Warchanter would have its attack bonus unchanged, as well as the damage in Inspire Courage. The new ability would replace the damage lost from Inspire Heroics.


I would like to hear comments from you or the other devs on:

The suggestions for Ironskin Chant, Arcane Shield Chant, as the changes suggested would really bring more consistency to the game.

The suggestions for Suggestion Song, Mass Suggestion Song and Song of Freedom, as nobody is using them. They are Bard abilities and as such they should have use, like the abilities of the other classes do. What is the point of having them if they are not useful for anything? I made only suggestions on what I think could change to improve these songs. If you don't like my suggestions, you can think for yourselves what you would like these songs to do, or you can even replace them completely for something else and new, as long as they see changes that will add value to Bard. At the moment, having these or not is absolutely the same and that means Bards are getting less class features than they should!

Thank you for the enthusiasm, my comment was more addressed to Steelstar on the goal of "Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them". Bards as they are can run legendary high skull reapers and contribute significantly (I often find myself competing for top killer and we play mostly R8). What Steelstar says applies to the buffs though, which at the moment are only minimal and contribute very little to empower the party - one of the most characteristic Bards traits!

Good job on taking your time to improve bard songs, hopefully the few issues with the changes can be solved and put Bard class in a better place.
Fatesinger you're next! (This Epic destiny is highly unattractive: DPS-type bards will be better off in Legendary Dreadnot or Divine Crusader; support- and caster-type Bards will be better off in Exalted Angel).

All the best,

/Mettalina

[caberonia]

Easy!
Remove all permablur items and blur consumables. Blur is now useful.
Remove all displacement clickies. Allow bards to cast displacement on others. Useful!
Remove melee/ranged alacrity, speed item effects. Haste is now useful.
Remove heal scrolls and other healing consumables. Healing is now useful.
Remove Deadly enchantment, extra [W], limit enhancement bonus of weapons. Inspire Courage is now useful.

Pretty much this.. the devs have backed themselves into a corner when it comes to buffs/healing/spells etc due to making a common mistake most new Dms make.. they gave out way too much and too powerful loot. This has led to unique class abilities being rendered useless due to everyone having a magic item that provides it (among other issues)

DDO is a monty Haul campaign. Imagine a DnD campaign where EVERY NPC offers you a random choice of 8 different magical items for anything you do for them and ANYONE can craft artifact power items. Welcome to DDO.

So they are left with 2 options to fix ONE of the issues the monty haul design has led to... .. Somehow remove the loot.. easy for a DM to do as it only involves a table full of RL friends and a creative explination..but still likely angers the players.. harder for a dev team to do because it involves a multitude of paying customers and actually coding it rather than friendly players and a creative story.

The other option is to redesign mechanics that are supposed to be unique and hard to obtain into stacking bonuses. They chose to do the latter .. now hopefully they take a similar approach to any spell pass they do and make caster buffs relevant again.

Yes this isn't PnP but the problems, solutions and situations created by bad campaign design are very similar to MMO issues. It's amazing that the problems created by a monty haul campaign are EXACTLY the issues the devs run into. Issues challenging players due to the prevalence of power, unique class abilities being rendered useless due to everyone having a magic item that provides it, Currency being relatively worthless etc etc. I don't expect the devs to fix all of the issues it has caused but they are at least trying to address some of them.

Now my opinion on the specific changes. Warchanter looks great.. spell singer needs MORE love though.

[Dark_Helmet]

I hate the idea of redoing classes instead of being inventive, but I will try to keep an open mind...unique bard buffs that don't stack with other ones is a good start, but I just think you are changing my bishops to knights mid-game.

Frankly, because no one uses Boast :P

<Insert snarky comment about how devs don't play much with player base here>
I know people who use boast. It isn't all powerful, so perhaps that is why you want to get rid of. Egads, something that provides flavor/diversity! You are trying to sound like the power players! Maybe it is just too costly?

Bardic Inspiration is taken straight out of the 5E Player's Handbook, and I just sorta thought Aria was a cool name for a constant musical backdrop :P

Well that explains a lot! Burn 4E and 5E... you life will get better going back to 3.5 or look at Pathfinder (honestly!)


I didn't like the persistent aura stuff around multiple PCs (contributes to lag), but every 10 seconds means you just want to do that so parties don't split up.

As far it being "less" songs, I don't sing every song for every person, so it IS more songs that I have to sing. There are a couple of songs I want to sing for everyone at once and then just sing certain songs for others who have a special role to play. We will have to see how it plays out.

[Horst-of-the-Wood]

I'm playing mostly bards, my favorite class, and most of them as support/cc/heal spellsingers. Always playing in grps (static + filling with lfm) aimed for playing reaper middle skulls (R3-R7).

First... I do like the way you are going here. Buffing is a long procedure right now... Also having all buffs granting music boni (=stacking) is a real benefit.

But there's one thing about the new Bardic Inspiration that I really dont like: its planned to be single target.
As I understand the reason for that is the new Sustaining Song affecting positive, negative, repair healings over time.

Please reconsider this! Why?

• On full groups it will take about the same time buffing 6 AoE songs or playing 6 single target songs for every player. Also AoE songs are affecting summons/pets/hires etc (i know those are weak anyways but still it was nice). And in a raid its 12 songs now... -> goal not reached imho!
  You even say it in your goals section:
  

  Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party

• Considered heroic play, early levels? Eg. a new bard player, first life, lvl 1 has 1 song. So he can buff 1 player now instead of full party. Even with more songs you cant buff full party+full uptime on lower levels in heroics. This affects group play and contradicts another goal.
  

  Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them

• In PuGs you sometimes got players not capable of dealing with the difficulty. I bet many bards wont buff those players any more if its single target... Which let those players fall even more behind...

Proposals: Keep Bardic Inspiration an AoE song and...

• keep the old Sustaining Song (no negative/repair part) or
• make Sustaining Song a 2nd, single target song or
• 3 versions of the song (positive, negative, repair) as suggested before or
• somehow manage to get the right version of the song (positive, negative, repair) on everyone or
• maybe someone else can think of a better solution

I beg you please reconsider this.

Oh, and besides... Reverberate needs rework!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm glad to see FINALLY bard songs and buffs getting love!!

This is a first read. I have been calling for a song "MEDLEY" to replace all the button clicks for almost ten years... I have to say I don't like AT ALL that "Bardic Inspiration" is a single target song. This is completely illogical. If I'm playing a musical instrument obviously EVERYONE around it can hear me...

Just some changes I requested in 2009 and again over the years, last being below in 2014...

Medley: One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently. A simplified, well laid out pop up window where you can check off who gets each of the individual buffs would be sufficient. It would be far more prudent and take far less time than to sing each of the single buffs on each specific party members each time, like we have to do now.

DOT SPELL: Sympathetic Vibration - Deals damage/round based similarly to Earthquake but tied to perform score. DOT sonic damage. Constructs take double damage.

Eyebite - Target becomes panicked, sickened, and comatose. Target is auto critable.

Spellsingers, bards in general need some more spells in THIS PASS. Still missing out on the illusion spells ... we need another DOT, and perhaps another aggressive CC spell. The two above might be the easiest to implement and are D&D all the way.

Sustainging song -- RIP. Don't like it.

I'll sink my teeth into this in a few days. So far you are definitely on the right track!! But it seems like it needs fine tuning in the math and the practicality of single target buffs in DDO circa 2018 and beyond. 12 is just too many clicks for any ability. ONE SONG!!!

Keep at it and THANK YOU for finally giving us bards the love!!

[IlmerSilverhilt]

Wow what a thread to wake up to! Changes to my favorite class! I still dont know how to feel about these suggestions yet, some I like some I dont like

Sustaining Song though, I dont like. Have to play to each member and the burst heal portion is now in another tree. No thanks.

Why not make that a Music Bonus too? Some players have heal amp, negative amp and repair amp? Dont worry Music Bonus works on all! Mass Cure Moderate burst is a Music Bonus too, works on all, but there is no need for a Music Skill it still uses devotion (or repair or nullification).

Basically Keep it as 1 song like we have now, an AOE burst and a following heal over time.

Ill probably comment more as I have time to digest it all.

Mesmerita

[john0]

Overall the changes to bard songs are great however i have seen a lot of feedback to sustaining song being now single target. Im not sure if it is related to balancing issues

I think the way to make it work better would be to make sustaining song affect number of targets based on how many types of bardic inspiration the bard is able to use + yourself. This would make it fair for players who invest heavily into bard.

At lv 18 and 21 perform bards are given 8 songs but 3 of these would now be arias ( inspire courage/greatness/excellence). So we end up with number of targets = 5 + (yourself) = 6, the maximum for normal party.

Now what if we talk raid groups of 12. Well spellsinger tree has 6 extra songs which can be learnt, which = 11 + yourself = max raid group.

Sustaining song
Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply a temporary fast-healing effect (positive/repair/negative). The number of targets is equal to 1+number of bardic inspiration


With this change you can have person A who splashes 4 bard for solo sustaining song and player B whos 20 bard full party sustaining song

[Vasandralov]

If you guys get property rights to the Ultima Online Bard Music clips to insert into the update, I'll take your sister out for a nice steak dinner, and call her the next day. Lap Harp life.

[Sho-sa]

1- The responses to this thread appear much more constructive than the previous Monk diktat thread. Thank you, Devs, for listening to the community and becoming more engaging. It is obvious an attempt is being made to avoid the previous vitriol.



2- The simple explanation for having more song buttons to push is that more songs are being made worthwhile to sing. Good stuff! There is also an attempt to manage this somehow. Even if it does not turn out perfect for everyone, I am pleased at the effort being expended.



3- At this point, the one feedback I would suggest is Sustaining Song, as I play Spellsingers when I bard. Leave it as is and add two additional toggles for Toasters and Pale Masters. This would be just like the various Summoning spells and Resists. The three options are there, feel free to drag as many as you like to your hotbar.



4- One question I have. How do the new extended songs interact with the Spellsingers enhancements for Sustaining Songs? My initial read is that the songs are becoming longer in duration across the board. Will there be a purpose for spending Action Points for extending song durations? And, if not, will these enhancements be replaced with something else? Perhaps here is where something can be added for Spellsingers as the general consensus is that Warchanters are coming out much more ahead.



Thank you for your time.

[kmoustakas]

Frankly, because no one uses Boast :P

We'd like to keep Spellsinger being linked thematically with Bardic Inspiration, and Warchanter being linked thematically with your Bardic Aria. Making the heal over time last so long is a balance tradeoff, and we're willing to give people the best of both worlds, but not as just one enhancement.

That's a lie. Everyone uses Boast in low heroics reaper. It's better than blood tribute.

[Neo-Masamune]

I mean... why only a lute? Give us more options! Like a flute! With more sound effects and animations!

That is all i have to say!

Keep up the good work!

Amazing update!

[kmoustakas]

Hey guys! We've heard you loud and clear about the loss of Sustaining Song as a directional heal, and are just going to give you the best of both worlds. Boast, the not so memorable temp HP single shot song from Warchanter has been revamped into the following:

Soothing Song: Sing a brief song to apply a small positive heal to your target and nearby party members.

This will play exactly like the old Sustaining Song did, but with no lingering heal over time. It's also only T2 in Warchanter, so not completely out of reach in the earliest portions of the game. If you'd still like that tasty tasty super long heal over time, it's right where Sustaining Song used to be, and if you want the same utility in a pinch Sustaining Song used to have you can sing this song instead

Behind the scenes, I'm swiping the actual effect and scaling 1:1, as well as its directional targeting and range, so your numbers and gameplay feel should be exactly the same before and after this shuffle. It's in Warchanter because there isn't room in Spellsinger and Boast is kinda dumb so we're just gonna bend some rules so you guys can get the best of both worlds.



Completely unrelated, when you use Bardic Inspiration it now randomly picks one of the available bardic music sound loops to play, so expect a little bit more musical variety when you're passing out buffs

Soothing song is a brilliant addition but do not remove Boast to place this. There are so many horrificly horrible enhancements in the tree to replace. Heck, inspired bravery is terrible and nobody ever took it if they didn't want Boast. Remove inspired bravery. Or Obstinance. While at it, doublecheck High Spirits because my bard in devil assault while I had it kept getting exhausted (unless it's been fixed already).

[cacyreus]

I mean... why only a lute? Give us more options! Like a flute! With more sound effects and animations!

That is all i have to say!

Keep up the good work!

Amazing update!

Totally in sinc with you!!
I had mentioned this in a previous post!

"Finally, a suggestion from my usual minions. To freshen up the game, it would be awesome if there was a way to have some variability in the tunes Bards play. Originally, in PnP bards have to choose a specific perform (oratory, lute, flute, etc...), I believe this could be easily implemented in the game as a multi-selector with the songs having variants from different instruments. Personal suggestion - bagpipes!"

[Propane]

The Bard is one of the only classes that the benefit of adding a 2nd one to a party is far less than adding the first.

Any thoughts around how to encourage more than one bard in a group?

Suggestions...

If two bards sing at the same time (over lapping songs) you gain 1.5 the individual bonus.
If two bards sing at the same time, their rhythm create a Mass Vigor effect, Mass Heal, etc...

[Hipparan]

We'd like to keep Spellsinger being linked thematically with Bardic Inspiration, and Warchanter being linked thematically with your Bardic Aria. Making the heal over time last so long is a balance tradeoff, and we're willing to give people the best of both worlds, but not as just one enhancement.

Any chance in letting high level Spellsingers use a mass version of Bardic Inspiration? I know the Cores are packed, but how about splitting the effects of the 18 core into Music of the Sewers/Dead/Makers and having Virtuoso grant a mass Bardic Inspiration? Throw Spellsingers a bone here

[thunir]

After reading this entire thread again, I still don’t understand the the need to make Bardic Inspiration single target? Nobody wants to wait around to buff the entire party one song at a time, which is the result of the environment created by condensing all the songs together. I like the direction of this update, but if you made Barric Inspiration a group buff song it wound save me about 6 songs to use elsewhere ( I currently use about six to buff off before raid). If you think it’s overpowered have the cost be three songs a pop.... but don’t make us all stand there waiting for the Bard to pass out a single song to everyone in the party. Remember Inspire Excellence? It was updated because of the same bad mechanic.

Please reconsider, the game play is going to stink. No bard want to do it, no party wants to wait for it. I know it wasn’t pnp, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

In fact after looking at it again why not built a mechanic to where it cost 1 song at level one for plain inspire courage and then increases in song cost as the additional songs come into play (max six?) to include Inspire Excellence because I still think it should be a part of bardic inspiration.

[Alcides]

I think there are some additional things to consider when making bards more desirable and inline with Pen and Paper.

Allow the bard to combine multiple music effects together via a toggles or like the metamagic menu for spells for a single buff or debuff action. Each effect should still subtract one use of bardic music per song being applied. That being said certain enhancement trees or epic destinies could have abilities which play off this system to reduce the number of bard songs expended by 1 or more per action to a minimum of 1.

Consider the following feats or converting the following feats to enhancements on the appropriate Bard tree.
- Words of Creation from Book of Exalted Deeds: This doubles the basic effects of Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics. It increases perform checks by 4. It also increases the save DC of Suggestion and Dominate by 2 and the effective caster level of Song of Freedom by 2. Drawback is taking damage from using this feat.
- Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn: This adds the bards charisma bonus to attack and makes the fatigue after the effects of the song ends.
- Song of the Heart from the Eberron Campaign Setting: This increases the bonuses granted by all bardic music by 1 and the save DCs of all bard songs by 1.
- Epic Inspiration from the Epic Level Handbook: This increases the bonuses granted by all bardic music by 1.

Consider the following spells
Sirine's Grace from Spell Compendium: Adds charisma bonus to AC.
Ruin Delver's Fortune from Spell Compendium: Adds charisma bonus to Saves.

[Hipparan]

After reading this entire thread again, I still don’t understand the the need to make Bardic Inspiration single target? Nobody wants to wait around to buff the entire party one song at a time, which is the result of the environment created by condensing all the songs together. I like the direction of this update, but if you made Barric Inspiration a group buff song it wound save me about 6 songs to use elsewhere ( I currently use about six to buff off before raid). If you think it’s overpowered have the cost be three songs a pop.... but don’t make us all stand there waiting for the Bard to pass out a single song to everyone in the party. Remember Inspire Excellence? It was updated because of the same bad mechanic.

Please reconsider, the game play is going to stink. No bard want to do it, no party wants to wait for it. I know it wasn’t pnp, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

Agreed. I think Warchanters are happy with these changes because it adds more to their aura, but Bardic Inspiration has only two songs attached to it unless you take Spellsinger. Those two songs will grant at a max level +3 to all skills and +5 to saves and dodge. It's nice on paper, but do we really expect people to wait around for the Bard to give everyone that buff? Do we realistically expect Warchanters to use Bardic Inspiration at all when they get the most out of their auras? Meanwhile to get the most out of a Spellsinger's superior version of Bardic Inspiration, you have to use it on all party members one at a time. I really don't think people are going to want to wait around for it, even with a slower play/cast time.

[thunir]

After reading this entire thread again, I still don’t understand the the need to make Bardic Inspiration single target? Nobody wants to wait around to buff the entire party one song at a time, which is the result of the environment created by condensing all the songs together. I like the direction of this update, but if you made Barric Inspiration a group buff song it wound save me about 6 songs to use elsewhere ( I currently use about six to buff off before raid). If you think it’s overpowered have the cost be three songs a pop.... but don’t make us all stand there waiting for the Bard to pass out a single song to everyone in the party. Remember Inspire Excellence? It was updated because of the same bad mechanic.

Please reconsider, the game play is going to stink. No bard want to do it, no party wants to wait for it. I know it wasn’t pnp, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

In fact after looking at it again why not built a mechanic to where it cost 1 song at level one for plain inspire courage and then increases in song cost as the additional songs come into play (max six?) to include Inspire Excellence because I still think it should be a part of bardic inspiration

[jimcricket]

Easy!
Remove all permablur items and blur consumables. Blur is now useful.
Remove all displacement clickies. Allow bards to cast displacement on others. Useful!
Remove melee/ranged alacrity, speed item effects. Haste is now useful.
Remove heal scrolls and other healing consumables. Healing is now useful.
Remove Deadly enchantment, extra [W], limit enhancement bonus of weapons. Inspire Courage is now useful.

/signed
+1
Also i'd like to add. change heroic past lives to only allow 3 active. 4 with completionist, 5 for double completionist 6 for triple completionist.
Make epic past lives only kick in at epic levels.
Slightly off topic but reducing power creep (sprint) from other places would make bard buffs comparatively stronger.

we'd almost be in a situation where we never needed the flavor breaking reaper mess..almost. (i'd be happy to see that go completely)