Early Look: Bard Changes

[Ahwaric]

Warchanter

• Iced Edges needs to scale with Melee Power

THIS! Currently iced edges is useless. I would also increase the base dice - make it 1d4 per rank, or at least 1d3

[Alled78]

Why is the bonus attack and damage so miserably titchy? We got +19 Deadly items and +28 Accuracy but we're supposed to be impressed by a whopping +8 that requires a specific all-in class build? And waste one of your level 12+ feats for +1 on a class that's already screaming tight for feats? Are you joking? Especially since now you have to stand in aura range of people for them to even get the bonus, instead of hitting them with it once and being able to ignore them for the next 8-10 minutes.

While the songs taking a while to apply is a bit annoying, the main reason bard singing is deprecated is because the bonus is TOO SMALL TO MATTER.

An all-in build should be more like +20 to hit and +15 to damage (or some combination of damage-boosting effects like doublestrike, bonus crit damage, something).

Sustaining Song is pretty much the only good song these days, and making it single-target is (effectively) a bit of a nerf.

The DC on a bard's Suggestion SONG ability needs to be fixed so that the DC is based on perform or something along those lines. Since the DC is pathetic this ability is currently useless.

If you guys CAN do it, the bard trees could use a few tweaks:

Spellsinger:

• All of the SLA multi-selectors need to be changed to grant BOTH spells.
• Reverberate's damage needs to be increased or fixed somehow, it doesn't do anything like the amount of damage the other DoT's in the game do and it's not apparent why.
• It's not readily apparent how Enthrall is different or better than Fascinate, especially since all the bonuses to Fascinate don't work with Enthrall.
• Raucous Refrain/Reviving Verse is an idiotic ability, it gives +saving throws against 4 effects, two of which DO NOT GIVE A SAVING THROW (energy drain and exhaustion).
• Is Frolic's duration going to be the same as your Bardic Inspiration's duration? That might actually be useful.
• Capstone Wail of the Banshee needs to be altered to use Enchantment DC instead of Necromancy.
• Could really use +sonic crit damage somewhere in the tree.

Warchanter

• Iced Edges needs to scale with Melee Power
• Needs some melee power
• Howl of the North only applying on a 19-20 is harsh

Swashbuckler

• Could use some melee power maybe, and a revisit to the "thrown" portion of the tree to make it maybe kinda an actually viable option

I agree these changes are a big nerf
I would Like other comments from People really playing a Bard, because If u Like The se changes probably u never played a support bard

If u Wanna improve Bard u need to

IMPROVE FATESINGER THAT ACTUALLY IS HORRIBLE

Then you could add some melee power that actually IS zero

Pls consider this

[Jetrule]

Ok I am liking most of the changes. the consolidation of effects is very nice.

As a spell singer player in heroics anyway I feel like the change to sustaining song is a nerf. As it is on live it is a huge range moderate powered initial heal and a low powered heal over time with the target receiving a double dose of initial healing. In the chaos of battle that big aoe has been a party saver many times.

So how about we leave sustaining song as is or fold it into aria and let it recast on each aria use with a toggle for the type of energy it uses to heal acquired from music of the dead and music of the makers? or a music note hovering over a players head that lets them benefit from positive healing from the song like a rmm drone allows a fleshie player to benefit from repair.

I still dont know if this makes spell singer or bard in general much more attractive to play in epics. The class is still a niche for support and cc type players or support and lowish dps. The buffs will be overall better for the party but there seems to be a reduction in the damage bonus the songs will collectively apply.

What my spell singer realy wants to go along with the song effect consolidation to be a strong epic option is a source of enhancement bonus to sonic power like the other elements have from lgs or ravenloft belts. A look at the sonic dot in the spell singer tree. It seems to be unaffected by spell power or something. And a chance that aoe damage or effects wont break facinate. : )

[thunir]

"Damage +8 (4 from Bard levels, 3 from Warchanter, 1 from Fatesinger)"

Is this getting nerfed? Warchanter currently has +5 to Dmg in the cores and If you take Fragment of the Song of Valor thats +3. Im hitting +12 DMG for a maxed out warchanter, please don't nerf one of my most important reasons for being in a party.

Not to mention the +5 Im loosing off of Warmaster. Why not just Make the cap Warmaster +5 Dmg to your Inspire. The song you have created as a capstone isn't going to scale very well in endgame. The AOE/DOT songs dont scale damage, dont use spell power, and also grab way too much aggro of every mob on the screen. Also howl of the north should be +1 on critical and not limited to 19-20, almost everyone is in Bard/Barb split now and with these Bard buff nerfs it isn't going to help.

I like the concept and the consolidation, but don't mitigate any of the damage out there all ready for a capped bard.

[Joinaxx]

Whose developer shoes do I have to lick to get some much-needed melee power in either the swashbuckler or warchanter trees?

Also +8 to damage, like what was said by other posters, is uninspiring, unimpactful and so 2009. It was so good before that it justifies bringing one bard into a raid group. It can make a 2-round Harry group into a one-rounder.

But now, bringing another true dps class is better.

How about making inspire courage to give 0.25w per core instead for a total of 2w? This will scale better at cap also.

Also please, please add melee power to warchanter or swashbuckler. If battle engineers can get 20 melee power, I think bards deserve them also.

[ideal_insomnia]

Great news! Bards are a rare class for MMORPGs and I'm happy that DDO Bards are about to get some more love. While we're at it, it would be awesome to have some bug fixes to everything Bard, like throwing skills in Swashbuckler, some of which have been broken, like, forever. Bardic Epic Destiny, Fatesinger, could also use a rework.

[azrael4h]

RE: Sustaining Song needing to be single target to determine which type of healing is required.

Why not make three versions of Sustaining Song, and have them all apply as AOE? Sustaining of the Dead/Sustaining of the Toaster would work only on those needing it, and you could keep the whole thing AoE, and less annoying to apply than doing so on a player by player basis. Single target, and most people will be ignoring sustaining Song entirely, and only targeting themselves if at all.

(In general, there is no 'friendly fire' in DDO, so the negative energy ticks shouldn't harm live PCs... though I'd expect an early bug making that happen like what happened with PMs dying to friendly fire briefly not so long ago).

[thunir]

Why is the bonus attack and damage so miserably titchy? We got +19 Deadly items and +28 Accuracy but we're supposed to be impressed by a whopping +8 that requires a specific all-in class build? And waste one of your level 12+ feats for +1 on a class that's already screaming tight for feats? Are you joking? Especially since now you have to stand in aura range of people for them to even get the bonus, instead of hitting them with it once and being able to ignore them for the next 8-10 minutes.

While the songs taking a while to apply is a bit annoying, the main reason bard singing is deprecated is because the bonus is TOO SMALL TO MATTER.

An all-in build should be more like +20 to hit and +15 to damage (or some combination of damage-boosting effects like doublestrike, bonus crit damage, something).

Sustaining Song is pretty much the only good song these days, and making it single-target is (effectively) a bit of a nerf.

The DC on a bard's Suggestion SONG ability needs to be fixed so that the DC is based on perform or something along those lines. Since the DC is pathetic this ability is currently useless.

If you guys CAN do it, the bard trees could use a few tweaks:

Spellsinger:

• All of the SLA multi-selectors need to be changed to grant BOTH spells.
• Reverberate's damage needs to be increased or fixed somehow, it doesn't do anything like the amount of damage the other DoT's in the game do and it's not apparent why.
• It's not readily apparent how Enthrall is different or better than Fascinate, especially since all the bonuses to Fascinate don't work with Enthrall.
• Raucous Refrain/Reviving Verse is an idiotic ability, it gives +saving throws against 4 effects, two of which DO NOT GIVE A SAVING THROW (energy drain and exhaustion).
• Is Frolic's duration going to be the same as your Bardic Inspiration's duration? That might actually be useful.
• Capstone Wail of the Banshee needs to be altered to use Enchantment DC instead of Necromancy.
• Could really use +sonic crit damage somewhere in the tree.

Warchanter

• Iced Edges needs to scale with Melee Power
• Needs some melee power
• Howl of the North only applying on a 19-20 is harsh

Swashbuckler

• Could use some melee power maybe, and a revisit to the "thrown" portion of the tree to make it maybe kinda an actually viable option

Suggestion and Perform are worthless in endgame, a better mechanic is needed.

Warchanters Northwind shouldn't be 2AP a rank, none of the other ranks are 2AP and the proc is on a timer. What is the penalty for? It is more of an investment, you have to have it for the line, and it is penalized with a timer. It's all very heavy handed.

[Lynnabel]

RE: Sustaining Song needing to be single target to determine which type of healing is required.

Why not make three versions of Sustaining Song, and have them all apply as AOE? Sustaining of the Dead/Sustaining of the Toaster would work only on those needing it, and you could keep the whole thing AoE, and less annoying to apply than doing so on a player by player basis. Single target, and most people will be ignoring sustaining Song entirely, and only targeting themselves if at all.

(In general, there is no 'friendly fire' in DDO, so the negative energy ticks shouldn't harm live PCs... though I'd expect an early bug making that happen like what happened with PMs dying to friendly fire briefly not so long ago).

This would make it much harder to use. Remember, there is only one Song now, and Sustaining Song is part of it. It's no longer a short heal over time, it's a part of your singular ability Bardic Inspiration. We want to give them less buttons, not more.

[Erofen]

This would make it much harder to use. Remember, there is only one Song now, and Sustaining Song is part of it. It's no longer a short heal over time, it's a part of your singular ability Bardic Inspiration. We want to give them less buttons, not more.

The number of buttons to use is imo not what makes it more annoying. It is the number of times those buttons need to be hit. That person's suggestion sounds like a really nice compromise.

[Erofen]

Before I get into my criticisms/suggestions for what I feel like should happen... I agree with the general idea of consolidating buffs, increasing duration, and providing actual stacking bonuses.

Now...
I feel like this would be much better accomplished by making all the single target songs (only the single target songs) into one single target song mass buff.
Do the same for the aoe songs (yes, i'm saying to put courage and the +2 stat ones back as timed normal buffs that apply in the aoe)

Single target buffs will stay single target, aoe buffs will stay aoe buffs, and chants will stay as chants that are based on proximity.

Why aoe when it was put into an aura? Because when the party splits up currently they all can have the bonus even if the bard is not on their side by singing before the split.

The 3 versions of the sustaining song aoe sounded like a nice way to include PMs and warforged into the mix. (and also allow for you to not need to bother using them if you don't run with PMs or warforged...)

[Mindos]

This would make it much harder to use. Remember, there is only one Song now, and Sustaining Song is part of it. It's no longer a short heal over time, it's a part of your singular ability Bardic Inspiration. We want to give them less buttons, not more.

Make all of your changes. Do everything exactly as you have planned. BUT, leave sustaining song alone. Now, we can do everything the new and improved way, then click one more button and play sustaining song (cue George Carlin: "Just like now!").

In my opinion, people would prefer the original shorter Sustaining Song that is AOE, over the much better, longer, newer version that is one party member at a time.

[Silverleafeon]

Will Fatesinger add to Bardic levels for the purpose of song durations?

It is my understanding that the single target heal over time will last longer in duration than the area of effect old heal over time version?
That is a certain amount of compensation for the trade off?



Overall, I really like these changes.

There is of course doing the balancing Math to make sure the bardic bonuses are relevant to the modern playfield.

Also, I tend to worry that Bards have enough to offer at level cap as Fatesinger might not be Epicfying Bards enough.

[QuantumFX]

Is this part of the December update, or the Sharn Expansion?

The “Improved Bardic Music” should really be an auto granted feat at bard level 15.

[azrael4h]

This would make it much harder to use. Remember, there is only one Song now, and Sustaining Song is part of it. It's no longer a short heal over time, it's a part of your singular ability Bardic Inspiration. We want to give them less buttons, not more.

How would using 1 bard song with AoE for three different sustaining effects be more difficult to use than up to 12 bard songs with redundant effects having to target each individual party member? That makes no sense; 1 is far far less than 6-12.

To be clear, the suggestion is to still have Sustaining Song as part of the universal single song button. Instead of the poorly thought out and likely going to live (since all feedback, including bug reports, is completely and utterly ignored regardless of validity) single target sustaining version;, it would be a AoE Sustaining Song as it is on live. Song of the Dead/Song of the Toaster would have the same effect, save for negative energy/repair as appropriate, and also be rolled into the one song to rule them all. So, your way = 12 buttons, my suggestion = 1 button.

As it is presented, using a single target version of sustaining song is harder to use, more annoying, and most likely to be completely ignored in real conditions by everyone because it is annoying and takes far too much time, as seen by live Bards largely ignoring 99% of their songs. It is the complete opposite of how you claim you want to give the Bard players less buttons. You give them the same amount of buttons, and claim it's an improvement because most of the effects are now redundant on song #2+.

[Lynnabel]

How would using 1 bard song with AoE for three different sustaining effects be more difficult to use than up to 12 bard songs with redundant effects having to target each individual party member? That makes no sense; 1 is far far less than 6-12.

As it is, using a single target version of sustaining song is harder to use, more annoying, and most likely to be completely ignored in real conditions by everyone because it is annoying and takes far too much time, as seen by live Bards largely ignoring 99% of their songs. It is the complete opposite of how you claim you want to give the Bard players less buttons. You give them the same amount of buttons, and claim it's an improvement because most of the effects are now redundant on song #2+.

Actually, bards now have one button - their Bardic Inspiration. They press that one button one time per party member. That one button applies ALL of their songs.

Would you mind explaining what parts of the songs are redundant?

[Joinaxx]

Actually, bards now have one button - their Bardic Inspiration. They press that one button one time per party member. That one button applies ALL of their songs.

Would you mind explaining what parts of the songs are redundant?

If sustaining song is what's making it hard to make the other single target songs (inspire competence, heroics, etc.) into an AOE, why not just separate sustaining song entirely? Make the other songs into a one-time AOE. Leave sustaining song as a single target buff.

The healing is not even that good on sustaining song. I'd rather leave it out entirely if that's the only thing stopping you from making the other songs into an AOE.

And add melee power to warchanter and swashbuckler, please.

Also, can you please add charisma-to-hit while swf in the swashbuckler tree? I don't understand why it doesn't have a to-hit counterpart when it's limited to a single combat style. Tempests, assassins, ninja spy get both to-hit and damage for dexterity; harper tree and falconry get both for intelligence and wisdom respectively.

[azrael4h]

Actually, bards now have one button - their Bardic Inspiration. They press that one button one time per party member. That one button applies ALL of their songs.

Would you mind explaining what parts of the songs are redundant?

1 button pressed 12 times is still 12 buttons pressed. 1 * 12 = 12. 12 * 1 also = 12. You failed in reducing the number of songs sang because of some notion that making one part single target is a good idea. Spin it anyway you want, you're still wrong.

All of them not Sustaining Song on the second and subsequent uses of the Bardic Inspiration. Did you read the early look notes? Or for that matter, you OWN WORDS? Every use of Bardic Inspiration to cast Sustaining also casts every other buff tied in with it... which means you are repeatedly casting the same exact buffs over and over. Which, according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redundant is completely redundant. It is, specifically, repetitious and excessive; and exceeding anything necessary or normal.
.
I understand ignoring all feedback is SSG policy, as is being abusive and trolling customers so I'm ignoring you after this.

[Gabrael]

1 button pressed 12 times is still 12 buttons pressed. 1 * 12 = 12. 12 * 1 also = 12. You failed in reducing the number of songs sang because of some notion that making one part single target is a good idea. Spin it anyway you want, you're still wrong.

All of them not Sustaining Song on the second and subsequent uses of the Bardic Inspiration. Did you read the early look notes? Or for that matter, you OWN WORDS? Every use of Bardic Inspiration to cast Sustaining also casts every other buff tied in with it... which means you are repeatedly casting the same exact buffs over and over. Which, according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redundant is completely redundant. It is, specifically, repetitious and excessive; and exceeding anything necessary or normal.
.
I understand ignoring all feedback is SSG policy, as is being abusive and trolling customers so I'm ignoring you after this.

as opposed to singing say 3 single target songs on everyone on top of the AoE one, for 3x12 +1?

[azrael4h]

as opposed to singing say 3 single target songs on everyone on top of the AoE one, for 3x12 +1?

Found the shill account. It's 1 song, period, with three separate AoE healing effects rolled into it. So it's versus 1 song period, as has been explained repeatedly. Try trolling elsewhere.

... it would be a AoE Sustaining Song as it is on live. Song of the Dead/Song of the Toaster would have the same effect, save for negative energy/repair as appropriate, and also be rolled into the one song to rule them all.

It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't trolling that the suggestion was 3 AoE Sustaining Song effects; one doing positive healing, one negative, and one repair.