Early Look: Bard Changes

[Kriogen]

Could you add DEX and INT to Fatesinger Epic Destiny stat increase line?

[Evean]

Before you add any more “features” what are the chances of fixing some of the problems you created with the addition cloaks? On all my bards, I still can’t jump and sing at the same time, and Dragonborn still slide along the ground like a Warlock when they sing and move.

[Zoogar]

This bard song pass looks very good. I like the idea of the aria.

Quick question is it going to play the kobold song that was played today during the Wednesday Lunchtime Livestream?
About 24:50 minutes in if you want to hear it.

[Nimdeadlee]

3. Enthrallment modifies your base Fascinate (rather than being a separate effect) to permit an additional save rather than automatically breaking.

Devs, can we please get this done? It's what you originally wanted to do anyway until a couple of vocal forumites insisted they be kept separate (despite the overwhelming majority of the community wanting it). I've been waiting years for this.

[Niminae]

nobody wants to target a party member, click a single button, wait 5 seconds, click another party member, repeat

Agreed. Based on the desired outcomes for the goals stated in the OP:

[*]Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party
[*]Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard

All cooldowns on buffs should be removed entirely. The only cool down on throwing a buff should be the global cooldown.

[Strambotica]

have been ages since i did a Bard, but i remeber that i like more Spellsinger that Warchanter.

And i like some ideas from other post:

* Charisma for Hit and Damage.
* A good Sonic dot.
* Item with enhanced Resonance and sonic critical like the belts from RL.
* Improve all the CC, its supposed that the bard should be the best CC on the game and i dont see that.

Buffs are great, but a Bard is not just buffs (and im a terrible melee so a CC one could be a great option :P).

[FestusHood]

In total they're still bad. As so many others have echoed, buffs just aren't useful like they used to be. Years ago I couldn't imagine entering a dungeon without someone having Energy Resist and Protection from Elements, Mass prepared. Now? Who cares. Grab ship buffs once every day or so and you're good to go.

Ditto bard buffs. Do they offer some benefit? Sure, but it's negligible. Is ~8% damage boost to all party members nice? Absolutely. But what's better is having another high-end melee. Again, they don't fit the party dynamic. They might offer greater benefits in raids, but that's hardly a way to progress through the game.

I want to see them make a comeback. I want them to be useful. And I sincerely hope that so many of us on this threat are wrong and that the changes proposed to the bard class will really see them make a return to groups. I'm just skeptical. I've played this game for a long time. We've all seen massive changes that push a class to the forefront of the meta wave. I don't want that to happen here, but nor do I want this update to be a major disappointment to people who like the idea of bards.

I'm going to disagree with you somewhat on this. If you are in a group that routinely rolls over all content trying to set speed records, then it's true that bard buffs are negligible, but then they would be no matter what bonuses they gave. Not sure how an 8% damage boost to all party members isn't enough? in a six person party, it would represent an additive effect, so basically the bard would only have to perform at 60% of the dps of whatever you would replace it with to even out. My warchanter seems to be doing higher dps than my pally did, largely due to the much larger amount of melee power gifted in fatesinger as compared to divine crusader.
The ability to fascinate and perform the freeze attacks with super high dc's is certainly a nice ace if you are in a group that can actually appreciate such things.

[Damian]

have been ages since i did a Bard, but i remeber that i like more Spellsinger that Warchanter.

And i like some ideas from other post:

* Charisma for Hit and Damage.
* A good Sonic dot.
* Item with enhanced Resonance and sonic critical like the belts from RL.
* Improve all the CC, its supposed that the bard should be the best CC on the game and i dont see that.

Buffs are great, but a Bard is not just buffs (and im a terrible melee so a CC one could be a great option :P).

Nice summary of exactly what I am looking for as well.

I like this comment as well:

Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post

3. Enthrallment modifies your base Fascinate (rather than being a separate effect) to permit an additional save rather than automatically breaking.
Devs, can we please get this done? It's what you originally wanted to do anyway until a couple of vocal forumites insisted they be kept separate (despite the overwhelming majority of the community wanting it). I've been waiting years for this.

[pjw]

Hello! We're here today to give you a first look at plans for significant changes to Bard coming up soon!

Sorry, I'm confused. We have a half-complete and underwhelming cleric remake, no caster rethinks, and ....we're back at bards again? What gives? Did we just travel back to 2014 and I miss the memo?

[Clerize]

I'm going to disagree with you somewhat on this. If you are in a group that routinely rolls over all content trying to set speed records, then it's true that bard buffs are negligible, but then they would be no matter what bonuses they gave. Not sure how an 8% damage boost to all party members isn't enough? in a six person party, it would represent an additive effect, so basically the bard would only have to perform at 60% of the dps of whatever you would replace it with to even out. My warchanter seems to be doing higher dps than my pally did, largely due to the much larger amount of melee power gifted in fatesinger as compared to divine crusader.
The ability to fascinate and perform the freeze attacks with super high dc's is certainly a nice ace if you are in a group that can actually appreciate such things.

Unless I missed something, the 8% was based upon +8 to damage and party members doing 100 damage/hit, not a 8% buff. I'd agree 8% isn't too bad, but in reality at endgame its more like 1 or 2% generously, even less when sneak attack is factored in.

[Hjarki]

* Charisma for Hit and Damage.
* A good Sonic dot.
* Item with enhanced Resonance and sonic critical like the belts from RL.
* Improve all the CC, its supposed that the bard should be the best CC on the game and i dont see that.

* I believe Different Tack should affect both hit and damage. Virtually all other similar abilities do and this is actually a significant problem for Bard builds trying to accommodate the hit stat on both weapon and buckler. However, this is a Swashbuckler problem unrelated to Bard songs (I'd also argue evasion should be reduced to the 4th core of Swashbuckler since it's so essential for a light armor class).

* While Reverberate is strangely weak compared to other DoT, I'm not sure pushing for a 'pure caster Bard' really makes sense. I think replacing Reverberate with a buff that allowed the Bard's attacks to also deal scaleable (with spellpower/critical) Sonic damage would be more in flavor for the class.

* The easier solution seems to be giving Spellsingers a T4/T5 ability that converts Positive to Sonic spellpower (similar to Cleric elemental domains). That way, Bards wouldn't be shackled to future itemization decisions.

* I disagree here. The best CC should belong to Wizards/Sorcerers. However, I believe that Bard song-based CC should be a lot more effective. With Fascinate, Enthrallment and a full set of Spellsinger cores, a Bard should be able to activate Fascinate nearly instantly, have it affect a wide array of targets and have it be relatively difficult to break. Suggestion/Mass Suggestion should gain similar benefits. Where Wizards/Sorcerers would excel is in their ability to render targets helpless (rather than merely neutralizing/charming them).

[Hipparan]

* I disagree here. The best CC should belong to Wizards/Sorcerers. However, I believe that Bard song-based CC should be a lot more effective. With Fascinate, Enthrallment and a full set of Spellsinger cores, a Bard should be able to activate Fascinate nearly instantly, have it affect a wide array of targets and have it be relatively difficult to break. Suggestion/Mass Suggestion should gain similar benefits. Where Wizards/Sorcerers would excel is in their ability to render targets helpless (rather than merely neutralizing/charming them).

In my opinion, Bards should have the best Enchantment CC. Wizards should have the best overall CC though. A Bard can't charm a skeleton, but a Wizard should be able to charm humans in addition to Webbing/Control Undead-ing skeletons and other undead. The only CC a Bard should have for undead is Music of the Dead with Fascinate. Sorcerers should generally be more focused on damage, and CC should be not quite on par with Wizards and a lot lower than Bards (unless specialized for Enchantment spells).

If we're talking Evocation CC though like Burst of Glacial Wrath, then I can see Sorcerers being better than Bards or even Wizards. CC nowadays is very situational so it's difficult to gauge which classes are/should be better than others. I remember when Druids were the best at CC with Earthquake.

[Rull]

The problem with inspire courage is not that it's a flat bonus. That's actually nice, encouraging even low damage dealers to swing their weapon more effectively. It's just that the numbers are way too low. Where deadly has gone from +4 on dream visors to +19 on about everything, and weapon damage has gone the same way, inspire courage stayed the same (it even went down a point for most bard splits - if you remember the old enhancement system).

Numbers as I would choose them now would be at least double in heroics and a LOT more in epics.

+2dmg at level 1,8,14 and 20
+2dmg at warchanter core 3,6,12,18 and 20
+6dmg twistable in fatesinger
+10dmg more in fatesinger cores/t5/t6
+5dmg in a new epic ML27 feat

This puts warchanters in dreadnought and spellsingers/swashbucklers in fatesinger at about equal as capable damage buffers.
And a dedicated warchanter in fatesinger will be the hero of the party.
Even a swachbuckler/fatesinger in another destiny will still be nice to have.
No bard? No problem as for a raid it might even be worth it for one person to switch to fatesinger for a raid.

[cacyreus]

If I have ever felt any sort of discrimination in DDO, it was definitely playing Bard and I would like to prevent some stereotypes to disseminate further

For some reason beyond my understanding, a good portion of the player base seems to believe that Bards are only valuable for their buffs - a vision that seems to be shared by the devs. The quotes below clearly show that for many people Bards only justify their place in party or raid if their buffs equal the net DPS of another player.

[*]Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them

We need more buffs in my opinion. A Bard's dps increase to a raid group, is not enough to justify them. You'd simply be better off with another dps.

Also +8 to damage, like what was said by other posters, is uninspiring, unimpactful and so 2009. It was so good before that it justifies bringing one bard into a raid group. It can make a 2-round Harry group into a one-rounder.
But now, bringing another true dps class is better.

Most of the changes are pretty nice, but nothing that would make me want a bard in the group over another good monk or ranger. Some of the buffs are still antiquated, but some of the changes are nice. Making sustaining song single-target is obnoxious any which way you look at it. Necessary so that it works with a 10-year-old, highly outdated system, but we wish it were some other way.

I thought that the point of this update was to make bards viable in end-game content. I regularly and routinely run r10s now. House J chain, Ravenloft, Memoirs, Grim. And something I never see in our group? Bards. Sorry, but they're basically useless.

In a game where buffs are nearly extinct, why in the world would I waste a party slot on a buff-based bard?

DPS is highly sought after in high reapers - but bards don't hold a candle to rangers/monks.
High reaper parties usually look like: 1 tank (usually fighter/arty variant), 1 CC (usually a wizard, sometimes a warlock), 1 healer (a cleric or a FvS. What can they offer? +8 damage, and small overtime heals I guess?

What about large boosts to dodge, attack speed, movement speed, weapon damage, melee/ranged/spell power, base damage, to-hit, critical chance, critical multiplier...? No, not +8 damage. Like 15%+. Some new forms of damage mitigation? Better DCs to make them more viable at CC? Extremely powerful, short-duration songs for those boss fights? Better heals to make them more competitive with - yet not equal to - clerics and favored souls. Maybe a song that regenerates party members' Action Boosts? Or a song that reduced all cool-downs by some percentage? Bottom-line: bards need to be able to bring something to the table that no other class can. It has to be something that makes the game more enjoyable. Something that groups will crave. And it can be no small thing. It must be worth giving up a precious melee slot in a party.

Agreed on some level, but he does have a point about how impressive buffs have to be to replace another character.

Buffers need to bring meaningful buffs either in terms of greatly enhancing survivability or boosting party dps to make up for the DPS loss they bring, if the devs want to see those classes being used at endgame (by someone other than the diehard class xyz player).

I could not disagree more Bard utility in the party goes well beyond the buffs or DPS they bring. I agree that buffs failed to scale properly with the game and definitely need a brush up, which has been somewhat conservative in the proposed changes. However, unimpressive buffs are quite far from meaning that Bard is not viable at endgame of high reapers. There is no reason to exclude Bards from your parties - they are capable and they can fit multiple roles.

They aren't the preferred healers, they aren't the preferred DPS, they aren't the preferred CC, and nobody needs buffs. They truly are the jack-of-all-trades (barely) and master of none. But in a game of min/maxing and party optimization, they just don't fit.

1) Support Bards are quite capable of solo healing content, including R10 quests.

2) Bards are also very capable in terms of crowd control, sure their dc's are lower than a wizard's, but can easily go well above 100. Add here the utility of fascinate, that in certain circumstances is more efficient than anything else.

3) Support builds have typically low or negligible DPS, but that doesn't mean these build cannot contribute significantly to the kill count.

Even if the buffs granted (5-6% to hit, 4-8% damage before multipliers and all add-ons) seem somewhat negligible, a support Bard can easily contribute and justify its place in the party solely through its heals, crowd control or kills.The great strength of Bards is their ability to do all of these together. There is great synergy in it!

Don't believe me? Have a look, just a couple of examples...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&theater&ifg=1

Multitude of Menace (R8)
Black and Blue (R10)

[Wipey]

Don't believe me? Have a look, just a couple of examples...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&theater&ifg=1

Multitude of Menace (R8)
Black and Blue (R10)

I don't see anything there. Neither is anyone on the server playing such character in high reapers or raids. When you look at Youtube, Twitch, nothing.

Fascinate is completely pointless, buffs are really meh, crowd control sucks balls - mainly thanks to long Mass Hold cooldown , lack of spell points, fts and overall squishiness.
Maybe just maybe you can play full on hjealer but that's about it. I'd love to be proven wrong to give bard a try again. It's been useless since we had been asking for dodge song for Horoth or Fom for Shroud part 4.

I don't see anything in these changes that would make people want to play or have one.

[awar1234]

Ok sing 12 twines for all buffs.
If I have TWO BARDS..... can they sing six times and everyone gets all bugs!!
I have THREE BARDS...... they sing 4 times and done!?!?!

[Nubom70]

Great, you're fixing and breaking bards at the same time, and our monks can't punch their way out of a heroic paper bag anymore. What else do you have coming down the road. I'm guessing you're
turning paladins LoH into a cure light, making sorcerers melee only, and nerfing stealth for assassins so it agros through walls when you kill something. Oh wait, you already did that to rogues... Oops.

[Hipparan]

Ok sing 12 twines for all buffs.
If I have TWO BARDS..... can they sing six times and everyone gets all bugs!!
I have THREE BARDS...... they sing 4 times and done!?!?!

If you have an entire raid group of Bards, everyone buffs themselves! Joking aside, you'd have to make sure you and the other Bard aren't buffing the same people in order for each to only sing 6 times.

[Krelar]

Ok sing 12 twines for all buffs.
If I have TWO BARDS..... can they sing six times and everyone gets all bugs!!
I have THREE BARDS...... they sing 4 times and done!?!?!

Or they're built differently, have slightly differently single target songs, and they ALL have to sing 12 each.

[Pilgrim1]

While we are on songs can you take another look at inspire courage. Once upon a time inspire courage was great, you were like woot a bard joined the party lets rock the damage now!

However 2 fundmental changes have happened to make inspire courage a big meh. It’s debatable if its even worth singing at this point.

The 2 things that have made inspire courage junk are the change to accuracy. At one point in time a +5 to hit was the same as +25% to hit. Now its between +0% and +5%.

The second change has been the massive increase in base damage toons can deal. When a toon is hitting for 50 a boost of +5 is worth 10%. When you are hitting for 500 its worth 1%.

Making inspire courage amazing!
Change it to be +2% to hit and +0.5[w] per core.
Thus a toon that would have had a +5/5 inspire courage will give +10% accuracy and +2.5[w]. The accuracy will be felt at all levels of gameplay and will remain true to the orginal idea of bards. The [weapon] will allow bards to maintain strong buffs pree lvl 28 and post lvl 28 (when weapon bonus dice get a big boost).

Thanks for reading....
I hope