The issues im finding with Paladin

[Kriogen]

I did a human 2H paladin for first life and ended up being quite tanky, but DPS was definately sub par.
...
- Most importantly, self healing is gimped in reaper mode so you NEED to have someone else healing you anyway...
...
I TRed into a paladin again, and even with the 34 point buy and twink gear...im still finding it really frustrating how low their DPS is. I had LFGs up for more than 6 hours today, and only two people joined for one quest, then left after....despite it being NA peak time on cannith...so I tried soloing reaper 1 because everyone was telling me the xp bonus was totally worth it...and it just felt so tedious....
...

It ain't Paladin. Its first life, no epic Past Lifes and no gear.

Melee builds benefit hugely from ePLs and gear. Build just has to be not-broken.

Casters are similar, but they benefit more from Heroic(class) Past Lifes then ePL.

Q: how many HPs did you have at 18 on R1. 300, 500? Have seen over 1000.

[Selvera]

It ain't Paladin. Its first life, no epic Past Lifes and no gear.

Melee builds benefit hugely from ePLs and gear. Build just has to be not-broken.

Casters are similar, but they benefit more from Heroic(class) Past Lifes then ePL.

Q: how many HPs did you have at 18 on R1. 300, 500? Have seen over 1000.

Paladin; as a class; is the best defensive class in the game, but certainly on the lower end of dps melees. That's sort of how they're designed.

That said; my THF paladin has plenty of dps through gear (and to a lesser extent pastlives). For gear; pretty simple level 10 gearset from my gear thread and a sword of shadow. I didn't even take the cleave feats - which would give me more AoE damage at this point; but I can still whittle down mobs pretty quickly. In reaper I can reach as high as 1.25[2d6]+80 on that inventory sheet at level 10.

With the tankyness and healing of paladin I have no problems surrounding myself with mobs to kill with cleaves and glancing blows.

(Could verify numbers later; not at my gaming pc atm, I think I'm hitting 600 HP in reaper atm; but it might be 700).

[Wipey]

Paladin; as a class; is the best defensive class in the game,

Ehh, nothing defensive about 8 or 9 dodge and maybe 50 more prr toon.
I'd argue it's ironically quite the opposite. It's like those First World War tanks - slow death trap coffin.

Unless you mean like heroics where everything has 80 - 100 ac in Gianthold and doesn't get hit anyway.

[Selvera]

How it's best defense for a new player:
- Bonus AC
- Permanent Immunity to fear, disease, death effects and negative levels
- Easiest class to get fail only on a 1 in all saves
- 20% HP, +6 Con and 65 PRR/MRR, as well as various bonuses to AC, max dodge bonuses, etc
- Easy class to get UMD to remove the few negative effects you're not immune to. Also easy to get many uses of greater restoration on.
- Quite a bit of self healing and healing amp.

How it's best defense for a veteran:
- % AC bonuses and other AC bonuses stack with other classes to make most tank builds; often taking T5's of sacred defender for the extra PRR
- Bonus to saves still an important part of hitting no fail saves
- No cap on MRR; and option to cast spells (healing) on party members with only a loss of 5% HP.

Sure you can get better cc, kiting or safespotting on other classes; but the former doesn't work on bosses and the others lowers melee dps of your group; and neither is innately "tanky".

You're right that in heroics epic pastlives and reaper points are a bigger difference to tankyness then build.

[Coffey]

Some ideas i would like to share.

Paladin has the best defence so it stands to reason that it will be the lowest DPS in the game. The goal is to gain aggro and keep it. 7d6 light damage is a good amount of damage that could be easily made higher with a patch. The light damage only scales with 100% melee power maybe make that 200+ %. Melee power is +15 KOC +6 with fighting style, +10 from Vanguard, +30 Melee Power Action Boost and not a lot of items i know of that increase it substantially. This would be a good place to start.

A question for a first life paladin is it best to go charisma main stat after str adds for THF to better power their class skills? Intimidate, Divine Grace, Divine Might, LOH. The DCs are already low as a first lifer but a tank can still get and hold aggro through Intimidate (400% threat) as well as enhancements and boosts and increases in the range of 500% i believe.

With 8 AP you can add Vistani (495 DP) Haste boost for more burst damage without Multiclassing. Havent heard of Vistani Knife Fighter Paladin being made yet (not sure if its good). Better 2WF offhand % increase.

Single Weapon Fighting line (30% attack speed lvl 12, 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage.) with at or near 100% doublestrike along with Vistani haste boost could be nice burst damage.

I think what people want is a viable character to solo with but with the option with some AP moves and gear swaps can be the party tank again when need be.

The Sword of Shadow is a nice weapon. Is there a Falchion that would compare?

Edit: I like using the feat Sap for high threat enemies. You can keep the bad guy out indefinitely while you deal with the trash as long as no one hits the target they stay sapped for 18 sec and 30 secs on sneak attack.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sap

[Tilomere]

Paladin; as a class; is the best defensive class in the game, but certainly on the lower end of dps melees.

For veterans, monk and monk splashes have better defenses in heroics against both magic and physical damage, because the 50 MRR cap doesn't really limit you that much, so evasion rules magic damage, and cloth has 30 dodge, while plate has ~5. Cloth also has higher AC in set gear, even when you dump stat both dex and wisdom, due to stat inflation. If one wears No Worries armor, paladin will be slightly ahead on AC. Paladin with a SoS is at +80 around level 15 ish unless HOrc, capping out at ~100 at level 18.

The +dmg is from gear/past lives/build, but really is about the same on any veteran melee, and is about the same on hand wraps as well.

Paladin level 10 halfway through heroics:


Monk splash level 10 halfway through heroics:

[Coffey]

For veterans, monk and monk splashes have better defenses in heroics against both magic and physical damage, because the 50 MRR cap doesn't really limit you that much, so evasion rules magic damage, and cloth has 30 dodge, while plate has ~5. Cloth also has higher AC in set gear, even when you dump stat both dex and wisdom, due to stat inflation. If one wears No Worries armor, paladin will be slightly ahead on AC. Paladin with a SoS is at +80 around level 15 ish unless HOrc, capping out at ~100 at level 18.

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.
(All that is needed is shield proficiency and a shield and weapon on your hotbar ready to roll.) Not all magical attacks allow for a reflex saving throw which makes evasion useless in that case.

AC, PRR, and MRR will always be higher on a Paladin or Fighter that gears towards it. And a much higher dodge cap can be achieved as well if its an all out contest. If all else fails there should be ample HP to absorb some big hits.

Melee damage increase options would be very helpful.

[Tilomere]

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks

Just heavy shields or tower shields. Armor doesn't provide any additional mitigation against reflex check attacks.

[Selvera]

My mistake on the stats; it wasn't +80 damage; it was +70 I meant to say. +68 with my standard buffs; but with luck of Olladra I could theoretically push it as high as +74; although that would be very lucky and very temporary. On the other hand; that level 11 pali (me) was running around with 770 HP with far from complete reaper trees or pastlives.

Most of my other stats looked pretty close to what Tilo has in his screenshot; except for that extra +12 damage I seem to have over his build. Did he forget to buff? Or is his gear just missing some of the deadly bonuses my gearset has.

Edit: In response to Tilo's comment about monks vs heavy armor builds defenses in heroics; here's my perspective:
Most dodge items have pitifully low dodge values in heroics; meaning monks are likely to cap their MRR before they cap their dodge (At level 12 sheltering values are 16+7 vs a cap of 50; while dodge is 6+2 vs a cap of 25 (after taking into account a lot of their free dodge).
Yes; pastlives can give a ton of extra dodge that I don't have; but the same is true with MRR.

I typically cap my MRR on monk builds some time between level 10 and level 15.

On the other hand; I find Heavy armor builds to be much faster in getting huge AC values then other builds; (to be fair; monk's probably #2 with the wis to AC thing). Simply because I think the devs missed something when they made the NoWorries and it gives double the AC of any other suit of armor in the game at low levels.

Edit 2: since Tilo seems to like his screenshots so much; here's one of mine; unfortunately I'm level 12 atm


Looks like I picked up +2 damage and +30 health since level 11 (when I remember having +68/770); due to mostly getting an extra stat up I think. Haven't changed my gear since level 10.

[Coffey]

Just heavy shields or tower shields. Armor doesn't provide any additional mitigation against reflex check attacks.

Youre right that was an earlier draft of the proposed changes at the time in 2014.

This is the DDOwiki:

Shield multiplier
Characters proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. In addition to using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield.

You gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.
You don't have to be actively blocking to gain this benefit.
Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0 (no evasion)
Tower Shield: 2.0 (no evasion)

The Double PRR would be for Untyped spells i believe like Blade Barrier.

My mistake on the stats; it wasn't +80 damage; it was +70 I meant to say. +68 with my standard buffs; but with luck of Olladra I could theoretically push it as high as +74; although that would be very lucky and very temporary. On the other hand; that level 11 pali (me) was running around with 770 HP with far from complete reaper trees or pastlives.

Thats a good amount of HP compared to a new character you might get around 450 at best with a Dwarf at that level without crafted items. Thats some impressive damage for a level 11 Paladin!
Crafting is obviously well worth the time.

Edit: Nice Str Cha too wow! And and i see you have divine might on as well. High cha really ups the damage a lot on a Paly thanks for sharing

[FestusHood]

One problem was that Paladins were given the buffs to critical hits (holy sword) second, right after swashbuckler. This was around the same time they were making prr super effective, and the combination of the two made Paladin overpowered compared to other classes. They then went on to buff all of the other classes with both critical hit expansion AND melee power. As far as i can tell, it's the lack of melee power that is mostly to blame for the lowish paladin dps. I kind of wish they hadn't buffed all of the critical ranges of all the classes, and i said so when the discussions were going on. Now we are at the point where paladins and bards are likely going to need to be buffed again, which will complete the cycle of powercreep.

[Tilomere]

Most dodge items have pitifully low dodge values in heroics; meaning monks are likely to cap their MRR before they cap their dodge (At level 12 sheltering values are 16+7 vs a cap of 50; while dodge is 6+2 vs a cap of 25 (after taking into account a lot of their free dodge).

You cap your dodge at level 1 with mabar candy.

But even without it monk splashes at level 10 halfway through heroics can get:

Flurry of Blows, dodge when centered: +2%, +4% and +6% at monk levels 1, 2 and 4, respectively.
Whirlwind Attack Chain 7% dodge
SDK Past Life 3 dodge
Reaper Tree by level 10: 6 dodge
Gear 6/2 gear: 6-8 dodge
Enhancements:
Kensai: 3 dodge, 6 dodge cap
NiS, 3 dodge
Water stance 3 dodge, 2 dodge cap per level of stancex2 by level 10
Mabar/night revels candy dodge = listen score = 20 dodge by level 10

A level 10 with a 2 level monk splash can get to 60 dodge, 35 dodge cap, which caps out at 35 dodge. Generally only end up at 25-30% dodge on dps builds.

A monk splash can have the same AC and PRR and MRR as a paladin in heroics, while also having evasion, 25-30% dodge, and eventually 25% ethereal as well if you take that many monk levels. Paladin gets more hp and can and do take more damage, but under a reaper self-healing penalty, that's not a good trade off.

[Alled78]

I did a human 2H paladin for first life and ended up being quite tanky, but DPS was definately sub par. At level 18, it took me 15 minutes to solo a level 18 night revels graveyard...this is when I was specced heavily into knight of the chalice and I had no further DPS enhancements to take. Mob HP just seems to scale WAY more than a paladin can scale damage. Note that I had no access to the pay2win level 10 ravenloft weapons that make level 20 free weapons look like garbage, so your mileage will vary if you do have access to those.

Paladins only seemed to deal high damage in one situation : when using exalted smite on a target that was NOT immune to crits...so basically...non-undead...I saw crits of 700+, but exalted smite only did about 120 on undead at level 18, which was less than impressive for a single target ability reserved for bosses (since you dont get infinite charges). Otherwise, I was surprised by how lack luster their melee damage was...hitting the level 18 night revels mobs would easily take 3+ seconds to kill ONE...and this was with spamming both cleaves...

And yes, I was using divine might + divine favor+ zeal + holysword, had high str, etc, etc. Practically everything short of having pay2win weapons.

Another problem was that the threat generation in this game works really weird...enemies run past the frontliners to chase after a guy with a bow or spellcaster while getting stabbed in the back and they just do not seem to care at all. From what I saw, spellcasters and other "squishy" classes did not seem to need, or even care, about tanks at all...they just kept bunnyhopping backwards while spamming spells in mid air and seemed to do just fine. While being tanky was nice...it only seemed relevant when soloing, and the problem with soloing was that you just dont seem to have sufficient DPS for elite/reaper.

One huge attraction with Paladins was always that you had good melee + some divine spells for buffs...but the paladin spell list in DDO really sucks, especially when compared to the ones in NWN 1 and 2. For example, divine favor maxes out at +3 hit/damage which is still good in pnp...but when stats are so inflated that even trash mobs at level 18 have 500+ hp, and when you have +50 attack rolls and only miss enemies on a nat 1, that +3 hit/damage doesnt do much really. Off the top of my head, i was averaging 60+ slashing damage, not counting weapon effects or divine damage from slayer of evil, etc.

OK, but paladins still get self healing which is useful right? Thats great when the game pop is low and you need to solo a lot...but...

- You can easily bring a cleric hireling anyway

- You dont get enough lay on hands charges for primary healing, so they are reserved for in combat emergencies,

- Most importantly, self healing is gimped in reaper mode so you NEED to have someone else healing you anyway...

So there goes the biggest strength of paladins, their ability to melee with heals. That basically leaves their high saves I guess?

I TRed into a paladin again, and even with the 34 point buy and twink gear...im still finding it really frustrating how low their DPS is. I had LFGs up for more than 6 hours today, and only two people joined for one quest, then left after....despite it being NA peak time on cannith...so I tried soloing reaper 1 because everyone was telling me the xp bonus was totally worth it...and it just felt so tedious....

I was easily taking 15-20 minutes per quest for 4-5k xp rewards at level 4 simply because killing stuff was so slow. With a few exceptions, I could easily tank the mobs, but sitting there for ages for every encounter because the mobs were super tanky was getting old, fast. Meanwhile I hear that people are soloing reaper mode while at the same base level with warlocks in half the time or something?

I mean, its bad enough that paladin self heals are worthless in reaper mode (sorry but when you only heal 1/3rd of your hp with 5 charges available, you arent going to last till you reach the next shrine in reaper), but their DPS output seems pretty bad. Everytime I party with a warlock or sorc, i find myself wondering what my paladin is good for when i see them bunny hopping and clearing packs of mobs while i slowly smack a single mob to death and try to catch up. And the only good thing on the paladin spell list seems to be holy sword...which doesnt even work against undead lol...

Just wondering if there are better options for the melee + spellcasting category. Most cleric/favoured souls that I have seen were specced for healing or turning....the only ones that I saw that tried to melee seriously kept dying. I saw a druid in wolf form that did insane amounts of damage...easily way more than what my paladin could do...but he didnt seem to use any spellls at all so i'm not sure how that works out.

It's just that despite leveling all the way to 20 and TRing, the one character type that I ALWAYS see perform extremely well in parties is the bunny hopping caster, which is typically a warlock or sorc. No other class even comes close to what they can do. Enemies cant seem to touch them and they can easily take out entire packs in the time it takes a paladin to smack a single mob to death. And they never seem to run out of spell points, ever. Are they just the meta class or what? Even when a guildie made a fresh warlock with no past lives or gear to party with me, he seemed to be way more effective than my paladin was. Way more damage and enemies just couldnt touch him at all.

At lvl4 all melee classes are the same so probably u need a
Little bit of more experience

The t5 paladin can be really strong till enemies of 1500hp so dps problem start from lvl 16+ quests
Main dps difference IS in epic

[Hipparan]

In my experience, a pure Fighter in the right Epic Destiny can out-damage and out-tank any pure Paladin character. I had a really nice Human pure Fighter and made the mistake of TRing him to a Human pure Paladin. Both were mostly Vanguard, a little bit of Sacred/Stalwart Defender with Unyielding Sentinel.

As for some of the nice benefits Paladin has over Fighter, I have an Aasimar Barbarian who gets a nice Lay on Hands effect, fear immunity, and does more melee damage than any other character I have had. Aasimar essentially takes two of the nice things from Paladin and gives them to any class. I can imagine an Aasimar pure Fighter easily out-performing pure Paladins.

Part of what makes Paladins sub-par is that they hardly utilize their deity which is a major class feature. From what I can tell, most Paladins worship the Sovereign Host (mostly for healing), Helm/Silvanus (only for FR Iconics), and Vol (for Vistani builds). I imagine the only people who use Olladra, Onatar, or Aureon have strange multiclass builds. The Silver Flame is completely broken for Paladins as they can't fully utilize their Favored Weapon nor can they get a decent DC out of the level 6 feat.

I think it would be nice if there were some more Paladin-specific deity feats, and having Bahamut for Dragonborn might be nice too.

[Tilomere]

Just add soundburst to the paladin spell book. I'll take it from there...

[LiveFast]

If you want DPS with a pure Paladin you have to go Vanguard and get your shield bashing up to at least 90%. Best Defense large shield is impressive and you end up at around 250 PRR and 2500 HPs if you put a few points in SD. I tried one lately and it was effective even in high reaper. Its obviously not a monk, barbarian or fighter but I wasn't so far behind. The main problem was AC because if you want DPS you use Legendary Dreadnought, not Unyielding Sentinel. And as far as tanking goes well...pure pally isnt a tank. They are FAR behind. So I think giving a bit more melee power to KotC, more AC to Vanguard or SD would solve their problems and many more people would play them instead of playing a glass cannon soulstone, even if they have lower dps. At least give them more AC than a robed monk lol.

[Alcides]

And as far as tanking goes well...pure pally isnt a tank.

This is an incorrect statement as Pure Paladin is a very viable tank if you have the right past lives, gear and reaper points. Sacred defender gives the highest defenses of any tree in the entire game. Also gives pretty good melee threat if you use bastard swords. And Divinity is awesome when used on a pure paladin. I'm currently getting 36 etrs done for Sharn on my main...but that will still be a pure paladin tank at cap that is R10 capable. I had 6 etrs when I started and could do R8 at 53 reaper points. It was a lot of work to pull off along with trial and error, but it is definitely possible.

From my experience protector Aasimar of Vol or PDK of Helm work best but you'll need to be a racial completionist. The other thing is to make good use of UMD, and know what scrolls and clickies you need.

As far as Vanguard goes it is made redundant with dire charge. Shield Smash and Shield Charge are decent for lock down, but the tree is very old and needs a pass. Tanking is about aggro control and survival not DPS.

[LiveFast]

This is an incorrect statement as Pure Paladin is a very viable tank if you have the right past lives, gear and reaper points. Sacred defender gives the highest defenses of any tree in the entire game. Also gives pretty good melee threat if you use bastard swords. And Divinity is awesome when used on a pure paladin. I'm currently getting 36 etrs done for Sharn on my main...but that will still be a pure paladin tank at cap that is R10 capable. I had 6 etrs when I started and could do R8 at 53 reaper points. It was a lot of work to pull off along with trial and error, but it is definitely possible.

From my experience protector Aasimar of Vol or PDK of Helm work best but you'll need to be a racial completionist. The other thing is to make good use of UMD, and know what scrolls and clickies you need.

As far as Vanguard goes it is made redundant with dire charge. Shield Smash and Shield Charge are decent for lock down, but the tree is very old and needs a pass. Tanking is about aggro control and survival not DPS.

I tank R10 on my main as a 12fighter/6monk/2ranger but its a LOT of work for the best healer I know XD. what i meant is that they are far behind the best tank build who are trending right now like the bearbarian and such.

I mentioned vanguard for dps also not for tank. who in their right mind would choose vanguard on a tank lol. I said if you want DPS with a pure pally use vanguard not if you want to tank use vanguard XD

[Alcides]

I can agree that pure Paladin is not the most attractive tank build, and it even could use some sort of an overhaul. Unfortunately, the developers missed the boat during the Divine Pass and gave prioritization to Clerics, Favored Souls, and Druids. Paladins were left in the dust that settled on us getting nothing but a nerf to Tenacious Defense which made the enhancement pretty worthless if you use Epic Defensive Fighting which doesn't affect Lay on Hands or Healing Hands.

What's really sad is the fact there are spells that could be added from Spell Compendium to really give Paladins a bigger tool box. A few noteworthy spells would be Rhino's Rush, Knight's Move, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura from Spell Compendium, Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor from Book of Exalted Deeds, other magic out of Complete Divine or Complete Champion.

Complete Champion also has a lot of feat options for Paladins which could be adapted to enhancements, not to mention there are feats which can also grant access to Domains and Domain magic which paladins can take. Adding Divine Shield as an enhancement to Sacred Defender would be awesome. Also, they could adjust the cool down and DR from Glorious Stand.

There's tons of stuff that's possible to make Paladin's more attractive tanks but until then we're stuck with the pass Paladin's got several years ago. Maybe the class will get some love for Sharn.

[AbyssalMage]

This just seems like more of that 'If it isn't the best, it's the worst' argument so commonly made on the forums.

That whole discussion about paladins was contaminated by the attitudes of players who seemed to think it was reasonable to ask for a very tanky class also to be competitive as a DPS build. So like some of the more recent monk discussion, there was a lot of complaining about not having enough DPS with little willingness among class advocates to acknowledge other class strengths as part of the balancing equation.

As for blaming it on the community, that is a very problematic position. The community is composed of a a bunch of individuals (including you and me) whose opinions on an issue are never all the same. Similarly, suggesting that the community can force SSG to do something they don't want to do is equally inaccurate. I'm not going to argue that what SSG did with paladins was the best fix or even needed, but the entire responsibility for making those changes rests with them.

Thanks.

I'm all about class strengths and weaknesses.

Currently, there is no class strength for Paladin.

Tank - Fighter does it better. Druid and Artificer do an equivalent or better job too. There is nothing innately better about choosing Paladin as your Tank when the difference between the defensive capabilities of Paladin are the same or worse than multiple other combinations.

DPS - Let's face it, the majority of this game is DPS. Stealth is no longer supported (to the detriment to that section of the community). No quest can be peacefully finished (Charisma based social skills). And NPC's have become bags of HP's to "swing" through. Paladins had their DPS increased to confront the developers penchant for making every adventure be solved through DPS. Then the community whined. So their power was reduced. The community said it wasn't enough and they were again neutered. Finally, limping and barely able to walk, the Paladin escaped the storm relying on a bugged enhancement (yes, it was NOT WAI) to salvage its DPS. Then the fighter builds (who shared the same not WAI bug) exploited it to perfection and the developers took one final swing. Of course this wasn't aimed at the Paladin, he was just a casualty, a civilian caught in the cross-hairs, of a bug that went too far. That leaves us where the Paladin is today - a sad, pathetic, shell of its once former temporary glory.

Splashing - For the longest time /2 Paladin was a choice to give any build the much needed saves to live through later Heroic and Epic content. Because most builds gained little if anything from their capstone this was a wonderful choice. Thanks to the inflation of gear and tomes, the developers decided this was just too great an advantage (and causing too many headaches on the design side) that something needed to be done.

/3 Paladin - You gained the benefits of the above plus for a small AP cost gained some defensive benefits. Of course /3 Fighter gave you the same benefits so this was usually predicated on the fact that you gained the saves too.

/4 Paladin - If you could squeeze another level out of your primary build, /4 Paladin was another popular choice because it gave you access to SP's, Divine Might (and a couple of spells). Thanks to the way Divine Might is coded (and to prevent more headaches to the development team) this splash has been neutered due to gearing and other enhancement trees.

"Survivability" - As discussed earlier in "Tankiness," it performs no better than its peers, and usually worse meaning you require more healing and resources. It's LoH ability is worse than a Racial ability of the same caliber. The immunities granted are found and replicated on gear. The DPS that the class offers is a detriment to the party making everyone else more susceptible to death. CSW + Quicken is its lone benefit to a party which isn't something anyone is bragging about because it is average.

So when you accuse me of, "This just seems like more of that 'If it isn't the best, it's the worst' argument so commonly made on the forums," know that the above guides my belief on why the Paladin is where it is at. It performs below on every metric you place in front of it with the exception of pure Bard. And Bard's are not supposed to be tanks.

You are right, I should not blame the community. The community has came to the defense of many builds in the past, some that I enjoyed playing. That does not excuse the community for the vitriol that it wielded against Paladins.