Player Power Fantasy wrt Raid Loot

[Sam-u-r-eye]

After talking over the loot with 10+ people the past few days we came to the unfortunate conclusion that (most) people did not feel inspired to run the new raid for it. I come from an arrogant power gamer crowd but I think the perspective is important for two reasons:

1. We know what is best in slot, and eventually more casual players will learn this stuff since DDO is in many ways a power-fantasy (like all rpgs). Who doesn't like feeling awesome?
2. Raid loot is the carrot that motivates people to do the new content.

Mathematically, there are a few reasons why the raid loot doesn't compete (broadly) with Ravenloft:
1. Set Bonuses. ~~ The new items are effectively missing 1/5th of the power of any similar Ravenloft item since those items have secondary effects. The Silent Avenger Set is perhaps too powerful. It is required in our groups for DPS-focused characters. Everything in this game now has Fort (undead dragons, LOB, vampires, scarecrows etc). The new gauntlets are nice and flavorful but people will refuse to take off their 5-piece mists set. If we could craft set bonuses onto items from previous content (in this raid or somewhere else) that would be awesome.
2. Classes are missing out. ~~ There are no handwraps or shurikens in the new raid. There is nothing that increases the DCs of casters over existing gear sets or augments their abilities. There's a notable exception: the Cast on the Run feat on the cloak---that's a nice item and it has a set bonus which makes it stand out as a good item; further, I heard people compliment it initially for this design style. Personally I won't use the cloak on my nigh perfect caster though---it competes with spell absorb. Spell absorb is perhaps too powerful... Crafting is a better solution---slave lords is more powerful than the new raid loot for this reason---it is HIGHLY customizable.

This loot suffers from the same problem as loot in RSO and I don't want to see people skip this raid. It is lots of fun. Loot needs to stand the test of time. Lynn did an excellent job on the Barbarian armor change recently but I think this loot needs more time. (Similarly the raid needs another pass for adding things for DC casters to do).



Customizability is huge in our current gear tetris.
Cheers and Love,

[Vish]

Sam,
After initial reports on this raid,
It doesn't sound too pug friendly
Like the Strahd raid, it will take coordination,
Which in most pug, if the leader doesn't talk,
Then you often get fails, or wipes

So even tho I run in good circles,
And will see this raid,
There is no loot in it that I'm interested in
So I'm kinda relieved,
Since if it won't be puggable,
Then it won't be run
Like rtso,
This is sounding like another dead raid,
Right out of the box

If they don't make raid loot worth going for,
No one will run it
Now I realize with power creep, the sense is to go lateral,
But without some sweet loots,
No one will play it
I know it won't be on my radar,
Regardless how cool a raid it may be
Ie if they don't make that staff of shadows worthwhile,
The only item I'm interested in
You won't see me bothering with it...

[Lynnabel]

There are a variety of reasons that we don't want to take a real step vertically here, and I'm not really inclined to waver on that point.

I agree that the Ravenloft set bonuses are too strong. I might link up a few of the Killing Time items together, though, good idea.

[Natashaelle]

2. Raid loot is the carrot that motivates people to do the new content.

Well, just personally, I view such gear as a means to the end of playing the stuff rather than its reason why.

the play 's the thing Hamlet, Act 2, Sc. 2 ... :-)

[Sam-u-r-eye]

There are a variety of reasons that we don't want to take a real step vertically here, and I'm not really inclined to waver on that point.

I agree that the Ravenloft set bonuses are too strong. I might link up a few of the Killing Time items together, though, good idea.

I'm with you on the "no vertical" here---thanks for looking at the set bonuses. I know we don't have infinite design and implementation time.

Well, just personally, I view such gear as a means to the end of playing the stuff rather than its reason why.

the play 's the thing Hamlet, Act 2, Sc. 2 ... :-)

Me to dude, but there's a reason we have reaper trees, even though they make me unhappy ^^. Some people are sled dogs and some people are donkeys. Cute donkeys.

[Krell]

Probably a big stretch but it would be really convenient if some of these just counted toward RL sets.

[Lynnabel]

Probably a big stretch but it would be really convenient if some of these just counted toward RL sets.

From a balance perspective, yes, but from a theme perspective this wouldn't make any sense at all.

[Jetrule]

From a balance perspective, yes, but from a theme perspective this wouldn't make any sense at all.

You might make a item or two have some chameleon ability that lets the item fill in as a part for any set. Just make the base effect fairly blah, and hide the endless text wall describing every set lol.

Oj or better yet make a yellow or diamond augment that does that set mimicry as a raid item!

[Zretch]

There are a variety of reasons that we don't want to take a real step vertically here, and I'm not really inclined to waver on that point.

I agree that the Ravenloft set bonuses are too strong. I might link up a few of the Killing Time items together, though, good idea.

Are the Ravenloft set bonuses too strong, or are they too restrictive?

If you want Silent Avenger, your breastplate, cloak, and belt slot are fixed and immovable. No new belt, cloak, or chest piece can be looked at or considered. Swapping any one of those items needs to provide greater benefit than that single item PLUS the set bonus in its entirety.

If you want Adherent of the Mists, you must dedicate 5 slots. 3 slots don't get you partial credit (like it does it slavers gear). If you get silly and want Silent Avenger + Adherent, that's 8 of 12 slots full.

Could the set bonuses be stacked so that a 2 piece Silent Avenger could give something worthwhile to blunt the impact of swapping out 1 of the 3 pieces? Could there be a 2, 3 and 5 piece bonus to Adherent so that you didn't lose everything if you have 4 pieces equipped?

Your fillagrees have incremental bonuses, your legendary greensteel does, your slavers gear does.

I really don't think Adherent set bonus is too powerful. A powerful set bonus is something you build your entire character around. I think of Diablo 3 set bonuses which really define your entire playstyle. When I look at Adherent, I think too restrictive. 5 pieces or nothing for some defensive improves? Ok, if there's nothing better then why not? Once I've got it slotted into my cap gear set, however, then I've got really hard decisions to make if a new piece of gear is better for the slot, but not better than the slot + set bonus.

[droid327]

From a balance perspective, yes, but from a theme perspective this wouldn't make any sense at all.

Eh just retcon sets as inter planar items of great power, scattered throughout the ages. Perhaps their creation is even something that's been discovered more than once in different places. Why can't Greyhawk have silent avengers too? Why can't Eberron have bastions of magic? Adherent of the Mist is perhaps thematically Ravenloft specific, but most sets are just based around an archetypal idea that is appropriate for most settings. If you just let go of the prejudice that sets have to be complete and self contained within one pack, then you can add on additional alternate items within existing sets in subsequent releases.

[Lynnabel]

If you just let go of the prejudice that sets have to be complete and self contained within one pack, then you can add on additional alternate items within existing sets in subsequent releases.

We try to avoid having items from one pack to require the purchase of an expansion to fully use the item to the best of its ability.

[blerkington]

My power fantasy is a bit different I guess. I fantasise about our characters being less powerful, not more. And that's not saying the content is all too easy for me - it isn't - I just wish the difficulty ceiling in the game was higher than it is now and demanding in other ways.

It was kind of a relief to see the loot list for this raid. Though I didn't go through it really carefully it doesn't look obviously bad but I can certainly live without it. So if the raid is like RTSO I don't need to worry. If it's good I'll run it for fun and to be with friends, if not, maybe just enough to get one item if that.

Regarding Sam's comments, I think part of the problem here is the four effects per item limit. Along with single effects that add bonuses in multiple areas, set bonuses are also kind of a cheat of the four effects rules. It's quite comical to hear gearing 'rules' like this one being invoked as a good principle for loot design, then seeing the people making the loot creating more and more exceptions. Why not just admit that the four effects per item rule is a failure, or at least relax it in the case of raid loot?

Thanks.

[noinfo]

From a balance perspective, yes, but from a theme perspective this wouldn't make any sense at all.

What would be good is the ability to customise sets with RAID runes.

Adding an item to a particular set (probably just armour to begin with)

So you want to keep the HOX armour you can just use RL runes to add it to your set of choice.
Same with the new armours. Keeps it lore specific and set bonuses similar.

Any other sets can be retro fitted eventually as well.

[Iriale]

The same goes for the casters with the slavers set. It is very difficult to give it up and are 5 slots occupied. There has always been a problem with the sets when it comes to replacing them, which is why I have never liked them in DDO.

In my opinion, the raids should not give items, they should give extra sets or bonuses that we could add to our quest items. Thus, the raids could remain alive instead of becoming obsolete so soon. We should be able to overwrite the effect of a set or bonus on an item, etc (requires more raiding). Most of the raids have some effect that is iconic of them and that could perfectly be a set to add to our conventional gear instead of items by themselves.

but well ... I guess something like that we'll never see.

[Eldried]

There are a variety of reasons that we don't want to take a real step vertically here, and I'm not really inclined to waver on that point.

I agree that the Ravenloft set bonuses are too strong. I might link up a few of the Killing Time items together, though, good idea.

So since for melees there is mostly only 1 destiny played(Legendary Dreadnought) how about putting in some set bonuses for melees, that require to be in NOT Legendary Dreadnought to get them.

Or bonuses that give 33% reduction in action boost cooldown that does not stack with the LG Core Action Hero.

Something along those lines.

[Tlorrd]

The same goes for the casters with the slavers set. It is very difficult to give it up and are 5 slots occupied. There has always been a problem with the sets when it comes to replacing them, which is why I have never liked them in DDO.

In my opinion, the raids should not give items, they should give extra sets or bonuses that we could add to our quest items. Thus, the raids could remain alive instead of becoming obsolete so soon. We should be able to overwrite the effect of a set or bonus on an item, etc (requires more raiding). Most of the raids have some effect that is iconic of them and that could perfectly be a set to add to our conventional gear instead of items by themselves.

but well ... I guess something like that we'll never see.

sets should be only 2-3 items at most. 5 is too much.

[Renvar]

I don't think every pack/raids needs items for DC casters and monks. Supporting the current meta is all well and good, but expanding the current meta to include other choices is good for the game as well.

Sure the players who only play 1 character and it is a dc caster, shuri tosser or a handwraps monk will ask for those things. (and need vertical progression to make that happen) But the game needs to think longer term than that. That kind of loot design is not sustainable or good for the game.

It is better for packs to have complimentary gear and provide loot for a wide variety of builds. There are builds that haven't gotten any quality items that suit them for a while. A lot of under served weapon types. I've pointed out before the heavy disparity in insight wisdom sources vs. insight charisma. Or the number of casting filigree sets that heavily support charisma or int casting instead of wisdom. There are holes to be filled. Builds to be served. All it takes is a little time examining the current loot options and you can see what is missing. Fill the holes at the current loot power level first instead of advancing the meta options only up the power scale some more.

Part of the whole "supporting alt-ing" in the game requires creating a breadth of compelling loot options for more than just DC warlocks/wizards, shuri ranged, and handwrap monks. Itemization is a very large component in power level.

EDIT: I also think a lot of the "this loot is not compelling" stuff is funny. You could make a long list of items that were panned heavily upon first viewing, only to find them be considered must-have once they reach live and people actually start to incorporate them into builds. There is a tendency to think "inside the box" and only consider items in relation to your current gear set and current build. And quickly rule stuff out because "it doesn't fit".

[Sam-u-r-eye]

So since for melees there is mostly only 1 destiny played(Legendary Dreadnought) how about putting in some set bonuses for melees, that require to be in NOT Legendary Dreadnought to get them.

Or bonuses that give 33% reduction in action boost cooldown that does not stack with the LG Core Action Hero.

Something along those lines.

+1

[Morroiel]

EDIT: I also think a lot of the "this loot is not compelling" stuff is funny. You could make a long list of items that were panned heavily upon first viewing, only to find them be considered must-have once they reach live and people actually start to incorporate them into builds. There is a tendency to think "inside the box" and only consider items in relation to your current gear set and current build. And quickly rule stuff out because "it doesn't fit".

Or you know, when you run a loot/equipment optimizer script for your character and see no changes for permaequiped items..... Yes this can change based on what heuristic you use - which itself changes based on a character by character basis - but ultimately it is pretty objective.

The fact is that most loot is just a bundle of numerical values tied to an equipment slot with possibly a set bonus or two. It is rather trivial in these cases to see if the item is worth it or not.

The answer has always been the same: create unique, competitive gear effects that require trade offs. Additionally, when you make a system as flexible as slavers crafting, don't overload the set bonuses to basically guarantee for 10+ update cycles that 5 gear slots will be used; slavers was drastically overtuned (and was far too grindy without multiboxing) but the sorcery set is one of the poorest gear design decisions in the history of ddo.

[Renvar]

Or you know, when you run a loot/equipment optimizer script for your character and see no changes for permaequiped items..... Yes this can change based on what heuristic you use - which itself changes based on a character by character basis - but ultimately it is pretty objective.

The fact is that most loot is just a bundle of numerical values tied to an equipment slot with possibly a set bonus or two. It is rather trivial in these cases to see if the item is worth it or not.

The answer has always been the same: create unique, competitive gear effects that require trade offs. Additionally, when you make a system as flexible as slavers crafting, don't overload the set bonuses to basically guarantee for 10+ update cycles that 5 gear slots will be used; slavers was drastically overtuned (and was far too grindy without multiboxing) but the sorcery set is one of the poorest gear design decisions in the history of ddo.

The other issue is the relative lack of effects that a caster needs in relation to a melee. It is not surprising that casters are still wearing 5 piece sorcery sets and/or 3-5 piece LGS sets. Thanks to consolidators like Spell Focus Mastery (which only trails a single school focus item by +1) and Potency (which is generally only 10-20% less effective than school specific spell power) and such, and the very narrow specialization of casters into just one area and their ability to use distance to avoid a lot of damage, casters can afford to blow spots on items that have minimal value just for the set bonus.

Casters also get to use both their weapons to store useful affects that can be found on accessories. Things like DC's, spell power, spell pen, spell alacrity, stats. Melees have to use their weapons for effects that deal DPS. You can't use weapon effects for stats, or deadly, or accuracy, etc. Casters effectively have 2 more slots than melees for gearing purposes.

A DC Caster needs Spell Pen and DC gear. Maybe some spell power gear for a few damage spells. After that it is stats and defense.

A 5 piece set on a melee is near impossible to use, unless every item is adding some value and the set bonus is really really top shelf. (Adherent of Mists does not qualify for most of my builds).

A melee needs accuracy, deadly, MP, doublestrike, alacrity, armor piercing, combat mastery. And then the stats and defense. The defense of which is much more challenging, as the caster can skimp on AC and dodge.

Set bonuses should be stronger for melee, as they offer a way obtain extra effects that they can't fit into a too complex slotting requirement already. For casters to have such highly powerful set bonuses is just the rich getting richer.