New Cannith Crafting Idea: Dynamic Min Level

[droid327]

I had this idea and I thought it sounded good but I wanted to see if/what the problems with it might be in actual gameplay...

I'm imagining a new recipe for a special Minimum Level Shard, probably something around L300 (BTA, maybe L400 unbound), so you'd need a fully leveled-up crafter for it. The shard will give an item a ML of 1, but when you equip it (or whenever your character refreshes, if you're already wearing it), it becomes ML of your level and scaling affixes would rescale accordingly. This way the item will grow with you as you level up.

Third slots might remain inactive until L10, or it might make those items absolute ML10. Likewise, augments would probably enforce an absolute ML as well.

I think the advantages here are obvious for those cycling through Heroic and Epic TR chains, though of course named items still can offer better bonuses once you reach the appropriate level. I think anything that helps rein in bank bloat is something everyone will enjoy

[Annex]

This has been suggested quite a few times, now. It would certainly free up some storage.

[mikarddo]

I had this idea and I thought it sounded good but I wanted to see if/what the problems with it might be in actual gameplay...

I'm imagining a new recipe for a special Minimum Level Shard, probably something around L300 (BTA, maybe L400 unbound), so you'd need a fully leveled-up crafter for it. The shard will give an item a ML of 1, but when you equip it (or whenever your character refreshes, if you're already wearing it), it becomes ML of your level and scaling affixes would rescale accordingly. This way the item will grow with you as you level up.

Third slots might remain inactive until L10, or it might make those items absolute ML10. Likewise, augments would probably enforce an absolute ML as well.

I think the advantages here are obvious for those cycling through Heroic and Epic TR chains, though of course named items still can offer better bonuses once you reach the appropriate level. I think anything that helps rein in bank bloat is something everyone will enjoy

The cost would need to be huge. Somewhere around 10 times the cost of any single item with 3 fully loaded items. Not just in essences but in rare collectibles as well. If so I dont see any problem with such an addition and can definitely see the advantages.

[droid327]

The cost would need to be huge. Somewhere around 10 times the cost of any single item with 3 fully loaded items. Not just in essences but in rare collectibles as well. If so I dont see any problem with such an addition and can definitely see the advantages.

10 times seems excessive. Maybe 4. I dont think, in actual gameplay, anyone is making copies of items every 2-3 levels. Even the most thorough crafter is probably making a set for levels 1, 12, and maybe 16 in Heroic, then 20 and maybe 24 in Epic.

Just as long as it doesnt require specialty materials like raid items though...I was thinking something like 3x normal Essence cost, plus a spattering of Epic level collectables (normally ML shards only require Essences), and maybe one or two Purified Dragonshards. A full set would still be fairly costly then, but it wouldnt be punitively expensive.

[glmfw1]

I agree with this concept.
I think the initial shard needs to be expensive, but if it's expensive enough and uses enough rare ingredients of all collectable bands, there's no reason why it shouldn't work.
Maybe:

• 120 Tier 1 Rares
• 100 Tier 2 Rares
• 80 Tier 3 Rares
• 60 Tier 4 Rares
• 40 Tier 5 Rares
• 20 Tier 6 Rares

I'm not fixed on those quantities, but think it should be a lot - once you have paid for the scaling ML shard, the regular shards could be used to fill the slots (i.e. big cost up front, but then no additional hassle afterwards)
Make it specific collectables, with useful node drops (rather than "it's one of the 5000 possible drops from this one bookcase and can't be found elsewhere") or add a recipe to convert any rare ingredient into a "Tier X Scalable Shard ingredient".

[mikarddo]

10 times seems excessive. Maybe 4. I dont think, in actual gameplay, anyone is making copies of items every 2-3 levels. Even the most thorough crafter is probably making a set for levels 1, 12, and maybe 16 in Heroic, then 20 and maybe 24 in Epic.

Just as long as it doesnt require specialty materials like raid items though...I was thinking something like 3x normal Essence cost, plus a spattering of Epic level collectables (normally ML shards only require Essences), and maybe one or two Purified Dragonshards. A full set would still be fairly costly then, but it wouldnt be punitively expensive.

4 would be far too cheap imho. You want something that is much better than the individual items at different ML - you pay a premium price. What you are suggesting with 3-4 times the cost of a fixed ML item would be a discount which seems out of the question.

I have crafted some items for 3-4, 7-8, 10, 12-13, 16-18, 20 and 23-24 but it obviously varies quite a lot.

[Annex]

Unfortunately, every time this idea comes along, players with good intentions chime in with ideas that would turn any such system into a gigacolossal load of unfun repetition. I do not find any joy in taking a L30 character into a L15 dungeon, running to the first couple collectible nodes while demolishing every monster in sight, then resetting for an hour or two or three. Multiplying that by a factor of 5 or 10 strikes me as downright cruel to players.

Perhaps, as an alternative solution, every time a player character reaches level 20, allow him or her to make a one time purchase of an ingredient that creates a Bound to Account Scaling Shard. Set the cost at 100,000 Platinum or so, turning it into a small Platinum sink. A player who makes the effort to level multiple characters or accumulate Past Life Feats gains scaling equipment as a long term reward for engaging in sustained game play. In my mind, adding better rewards for existing repetition makes much more sense than adding yet more repetition.

I would NOT make such an item a Favor Reward. Running a bunch of low level quests with a high level player character for Favor represents yet another manifestation of unfun, time wasting busy work. Just hand it out for reaching level 20.

Coin Lords: "Thank you, <player character>, for repeatedly facing great peril to keep the citizens of Stormreach safe. As a reward for your immense efforts, we have contracted with the Master Artificers of House Cannith to fashion this Shard of Scaling Power. When used in conjunction with Cannith Crafting, this Shard will allow you to fashion an enchanted item that always grows with your personal glory. Use it wisely as you continue your epic exploits to rid our world of cruelty and evil."

Come to think of it, level 20 is right around where a new player really begins to earn Essences. It is the point where the full power of Cannith Crafting really comes within reach. Offering a reward of a Scaling Shard at level 20 thus encourages a new player to take on Cannith Crafting at a point when it becomes feasible. Mastering Cannith Crafting then sets up the new player to make the next go round with much better equipment. Giving out one piece of scaling equipment sweetens the idea of making more and more go rounds.

Yea. Give out one Scaling Shard for free at level 20.

[glmfw1]

Unfortunately, every time this idea comes along, players with good intentions chime in with ideas that would turn any such system into a gigacolossal load of unfun repetition. I do not find any joy in taking a L30 character into a L15 dungeon, running to the first couple collectible nodes while demolishing every monster in sight, then resetting for an hour or two or three. Multiplying that by a factor of 5 or 10 strikes me as downright cruel to players.

While doing my regular levelling, I pick up loads of rare collectables that I don't use as part of my Bound crafting
I agree that it would be a gigacolossal load of unfun repetition for someone who, at level 30 decided "I will now create Cannith Crafted scaling items for every equipment slot", but in practice, people will have named items that they use at various levels, so won't need scaling shards for every slot all at once. As a new system (sort of), it would give people something to collect for while levelling. Those who "must have immediately" would face the hideous grind. Those who collect as they go would see a use for the things they were collecting, so it would work as a reward for long-term planning.

[zehnvhex]

Y'know, I'm going to start off by saying...why are people so hard set against making the game more accessible? I mean I get this "I got mine so screw you" attitude that many long time vets have in regards to things like gear, PL's, etc...but if they were to tomorrow announce all dungeon packs are now 100% free, they are removing the extra xp required for 2nd lives+, epic lives can now be attained once you have max karma and no longer need you to be level 30, all crafted items now scale to whatever level you're at, etc...

I'd be jumping for joy. I would love it. And I say this as someone with something like 300+ past lives, gear every 6 levels for 5 different builds, own all the content, etc...

Doing something like this would draw in new players and I want more people to play with. I don't care what I've already done. I've already done it. I want new people to play with. How about we try growing the game?

Cannith Crafting being largely inaccessible to new players is one of those things that needs to be changed to be more newbie friendly.

Anyways...

but in practice

But in practice you never have a relatively uniform distribution of such collectibles and will find yourself having enough T1, T2, T4+, but you need like, 74 T3 rares given your idea. So you can either spend two weeks farming T3 or just realize you'll never be able to partake of such a system because one of the rares is just more rare than rare.

Honestly if you were to do such a thing just have the scaling shard cost like 10k Cannith Essence. It's non-specific, can farm it in a myriad of ways and they're a commodity that's easy to understand and sell on the AH.

The idea is moot anyways. DDO items don't support scaling like this.

[glmfw1]

Maybe:

• 120 Tier 1 Rares
• 100 Tier 2 Rares
• 80 Tier 3 Rares
• 60 Tier 4 Rares
• 40 Tier 5 Rares
• 20 Tier 6 Rares

I'm not fixed on those quantities

But in practice you never have a relatively uniform distribution of such collectibles...

So suggest the sort of numbers that you think would make it feasible, rather than just saying "won't work".

The idea is moot anyways. DDO items don't support scaling like this.

DDO items don't currently support scaling like this... but they have items that can see your alignment, whether you have paladin levels (and how many of them) and impact things accordingly. It could well be that the code is capable of working this way, and if it is suggested in a workable manner something might come of it.

[Pnumbra]

A great idea, but some of the cost suggested will make all the effort unsustainable, and thereby ignored. If a more reasonable cost can be fleshed out, this will make CC very appealing. Ingredient cost now hinders CC effect on the game.

In the same vein, things like death block should be revisited. Why does it add 6 levels to the ML?

[glmfw1]

A great idea, but some of the cost suggested will make all the effort unsustainable, and thereby ignored. If a more reasonable cost can be fleshed out, this will make CC very appealing

So what costs would you suggest?

[qwert-y]

Dynamic, scaling items????

You are asking for some heavy scripting, from a group of people who have trouble fixing T-pose issues with animation.... Do you realize this?

I like the idea though.

[zehnvhex]

So suggest the sort of numbers that you think would make it feasible, rather than just saying "won't work".

I did.

Honestly if you were to do such a thing just have the scaling shard cost like 10k Cannith Essence. It's non-specific, can farm it in a myriad of ways and they're a commodity that's easy to understand and sell on the AH.

I mean c'mon man. Stop with the selective reading.

[mikarddo]

Yea. Give out one Scaling Shard for free at level 20.

Cool idea. It would be a great bonus for new players that really rewards getting to 20 and makes it feel special.
Sure, the vets would get more of these but also have less need so thats ok.

Something like:
a) Get one for free at level 20 (not after an etr, but when levelling from 19 to 20)
b) Buy one in the store (price to be decided) - monetization.
c) Buy one for a load of ingrediences.

[glmfw1]

I did.
I mean c'mon man. Stop with the selective reading.

Sorry, didn't see a suggestion of "use the most basic easily available ingredient" as an alternative for the significantly reduced cost of individual collectables needed (45/15 rather than ~315/105, with the benefit of any changes with level as soon as they apply, so potentially a lot more). I saw that as suggestion of an entirely different method of doing it, which the devs would be highly unlikely to consider even if they did look into scaling items, given that it would pretty much invalidate the rest of Cannith Crafting.

[droid327]

Cool idea. It would be a great bonus for new players that really rewards getting to 20 and makes it feel special.
Sure, the vets would get more of these but also have less need so thats ok.

Something like:
a) Get one for free at level 20 (not after an etr, but when levelling from 19 to 20)
b) Buy one in the store (price to be decided) - monetization.
c) Buy one for a load of ingrediences.

I'm good with this model too - one per life plus a grind pathway for more, or store shortcut

Maybe one for 10k mysterious remnants. Or cost 20 top tier siberys dragon shards or 10k 10k khyber/siberys frags, make it an occasional reward for those long grinds that right now are pointless because you earn way more than you use.

I just don't think gating it with a grind wall so massive (multi hundred collectables) that it scares off most players is good design. The game should always be fun, you should never tell players "you need to pay the price before you get to have fun".

Honestly if it takes about as much time to grind one slot as it takes to grind 2-3 named items I think that's balanced. That's probably what you're replacing anyway for leveling. So that's like 12 quest completions on average (33% drop, typically 4 items on the drop table), maybe 15 mins average quest, so you should be able to grind out the cost for a scaling shard in 3-4 hours of gameplay. So I'm probably really overpricing them with my examples above even.

[Annex]

Something like:
a) Get one for free at level 20 (not after an etr, but when levelling from 19 to 20)
b) Buy one in the store (price to be decided) - monetization.
c) Buy one for a load of ingrediences.

Perfect. Options are wonderful. Send it to the floor for a vote.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Ruby eye augments already scale their damage effects with character level & a bunch of the set bonuses for sentient filigrees scale with epic level, so the tech is definitely there for gear that scales based off levels as well as other skills & abilities.. the main issue I can see is lag from calculations, iirc there was a big problem with UMD calculations causing issues a while back.

[blerkington]

It's quite horrifying to see people advocating an increase in collectable costs for Cannith Crafting, even for the gain of scaling shards. Has a definite whiff of Stockholm Syndrome to it.

If any more work was going to be done on this crafting system, I'd suggest three more useful changes. The first would be a large reduction in collectable costs, making the system more useful to new players and to others who don't want to spend their time on the most gratuitous grind in the game. Talk about grind existing just for its own sake.

The second is relaxing the restrictions on which effects can go where on items, so there's more flexibility with what we can craft. That would do a lot to even out the way some item types are so lacking in useful effects compared to others and extend the usefulness of the system.

The third is give us a way to craft augments slots onto item blanks, preferably without a huge collectable cost because reasons. Being able to add one or even two would be great, but failing that add a craftable trinket with a green slot to the DDO Store.

Thanks.