I have the answer for how to keep (some) people at cap

[Rogann]

Nope, not my numbers, those came from ten ton hammer, and 2 other sites.

DDO has never hit anywhere close to 1 mil subs. It was hemorrhaging thousands of subs until the f2p model essentially saved the game.



The best source I could find. From the now defunct mmodata.net.

So to get back on topic, Some good feedback here.

We all know how to keep players at cap. Its been done in the past (eberron unlimited). Create new raids/loot without invalidating old raids/loot. Its that simple. Removing raid timer bypasses and the best tomes (currently +8) from the store is a necessity. Unfortunately it will never happen.

[mr420247]

Give casters dps so they actually have fun playing at cap maybe

[Tuxedoman96]

The idea of an end game, in addition to being the highest level, is that we are enticed to stay. I wouldn't say many are enticed to stay at lvl 30. The increase in reincarnation wheels certainly doesn't help. Personally, I'm of the mind that several different "victory conditions" should be added to the game, not just reincarnation, and not just lvl 30.

For one, we don't have a real challenge difficulty, in all honesty. Yes reaper can be challenging, but the idea of a challenge difficulty is that it's difficult. Beating the difficulty is its own reward and therefore doesn't require huge incentives (and definitely doesn't require trees to ease the burden!). For some, beating every quest on the highest difficulty can be a victory condition. One of the failures of reaper is that there was such a large range of difficulties in it. There was too much leeway in regards to accessibility for everyone, so most of the older players ran over to that, leaving the newer players to either fend for themselves most of the time or get dragged into reaper (despite being a "choice"), somehow being seen as a better situation than being dragged into elite (facepalm). 1-3 skulls isn't much harder than elite (3 skulls cutting it close), and the idea that a challenge difficulty is at any point only slightly harder than a standard difficulty is a failure in design.

We do not have an "impossible raid" for end game. Something so diabolical at the highest difficulty that chances of recreating your achievement (if you do complete) are very slim. Several groups are running and completing the Curse of Strahd and Old Baba's Hut regularly at the highest difficulty. That shouldn't be happening for "end game" raids.

We were supposed to have "won" DDO when we reincarnated in every class. So why must we win in the reincarnation game again? Another aspect of an end game is that there is a finite destination, especially one that people can reach in the foreseeable future. People who join today will probably have one or two more reincarnation wheels to grind through by the time they finish the ones instated now. That has to stop. I'm not sure how adding more reincarnation wheels seemed like a good idea for player retention or for end game, and it definitely hasn't curbed player power any.

There is very little presence of PvP. PvE will always be finite in any point in time, since you can't make content and add it to the game faster than players can complete it. PvP would serve first of all as a buffer for content, since that could be a way to preoccupy veteran players if and when they become too bored of the current PvE content. It would also serve as it's own end game. You think you are better than every other player? Prove it. There are different types of PvP as well. There's the arena for random competition (complete with a reward or something), your standard 1v1 or ?v?, guild battles. These are all your usual slay each other PvP elements that can be implemented. In addition, leaderboards and fastest completion times can serve as PvP styles. Rather than killing someone else, you show you're better - solo or with a group (and they'd be separated of course) - by completing certain quests faster. Quests only ran at cap and that general take a sizeable amount of time to complete.

There's no real achievement system for end game either. You complete the quest and kill monsters, that's about it. I can hardly call that creative. Something like killing the hardest monsters in a few quests with no deaths (alone or in party) on the highest difficulty, with possibly a time limit on it (you'd still complete the quest but not get the achievement if you didn't do it in time). Something akin to Saekee's stealth challenge could be used on the stealth side (if some care about that...). Anything to get people to strive for something other than "run in, kill, get out" that has been plaguing the game recently.

Another idea is a limitless quest, similar to Kobold Assault or Devil Assault, but is instead endless. The goal is just to see how long you last (it ties into the PvP in that you can put that as a leaderboard thing). No rez shrine, no rez cakes. Store-bought items such as mana pots and ammo. A vendor who's only goal is to repair broken/damaged items and provide ammunition. There's a rest shrine that appears at a diminishing frequency. The terrain changes from wave to wave and features a dimensional anchor. It might be cold and slippery one way, dank and webby in another, or volcanic with all the sweltering heat and earthquakes that it entails. More and more monsters of various types spawn. You might start with Kobolds and eventually end up facing 3 dragons (and even oozes between) that increase in health, dmg, saves, fortification, gain see invis or truesight, etc.

Finally, there's no survival mode. I'd say that it'd be a good idea to have two different servers dedicated to survivalistic gameplay. You think your characters' so tough at the top? let's shove him into this server and see how well you last. It'd start at epics, so that those that worked on their builds for years wouldn't have to do it on the hardcore server. In addition, your character would keep the gear it has that isn't store-bought or a consumable. There would only be one difficulty. You wouldn't be able to examine monsters to see buffs/crowns/hp. Items would rarely break out of breakables. Your found items are unidentified until you use them for the first time unless you got it identified from a vendor or acquired one from them beforehand (which means drinking one for potions, reading for scrolls, activating for wands, and hitting/casting through your weapons). If your character dies without a raise from a scroll, spell, or clicky, it gets automatically deleted (the original copy would stay on the main server). The charge on the clicky wouldn't return. Ever. In addition, the availability of raise/rez/true rez scrolls would diminish greatly, and there would be a max number of raises for your character. You don't get to live forever. The second server would be similar but would be as such from lvl 1. You wouldn't be able to transfer a toon, so it would be a lvl 1, first life toon. I'd name the first server "Shavarath" and the second server "Abyss". Obviously this idea would probably be a nightmare to implement.

All in all, the idea is that having several different types of endgame, be it challenge-based or competition-based, would aid in both retaining and attracting players - both at that level and for the game at large - and would aid in balancing the game, believe it or not. You notice a lot of the same builds or classes are at the top of the leaderboards, and then it allows you to zero in on that aspect of the power situation. You see a whole lot of the same classes, build types (e.g. shuriken throwers or ranged in general) at cap, and then you can improve/nerf, with data that everyone can see to boot.

[Robbenklopper]

There is absolutely no incentive to stay at cap - because there is nothing to do that requires to be at cap or is Lvl30 exclusive content. No Wonder that only some enthusiasts leave home with their chevy nova and cruise around longer than necessary.
Any 30+ content has been proven to be doable far be low cap, same for grinding and farming stuff.
IF there would be something very special interesting thrilling worthy great fantastic and only exclusive to capped toons ... I would welcome this a lot.

[legendkilleroll]

Timers and multiboxing are big problems imo.

Players now can just finish content in a few days, before legendary was out you had thunder peak, DoJ, MoD that were just bypassed til 20th/40th etc, deathwyrm not as much because that wasnt as quick.

Then with multiboxer's you have 5 extra pullers for a named items or to get more mats for crafting which then makes it hard to balance the crafting grind.

I'd get rid of both but thats just me, sure the boxer's will respond with the usual "i pay money for this account too!" Content cant be released at the same speed in which people are aquiring things, its been 3 to 4 updates a year for awhile now but people are done in a few weeks if not days.

[Chai]

DDO has never hit anywhere close to 1 mil subs. It was hemorrhaging thousands of subs until the f2p model essentially saved the game.



The best source I could find. From the now defunct mmodata.net.




We all know how to keep players at cap. Its been done in the past (eberron unlimited). Create new raids/loot without invalidating old raids/loot. Its that simple. Removing raid timer bypasses and the best tomes (currently +8) from the store is a necessity. Unfortunately it will never happen.

Where are those folks who continually claim 2010-2011 was dead?

[Odysseus2011]

One of the issues is the best gear is L29, and most people simply TR at 30. Perhaps the best gear should be capped at say, L26, so there's more reason to farm for items and do end game stuff.

Sentient weapons were supposed to be the end game reason to farm, but I think it kinda failed. It did let people use up all their duped items (if they were lucky to have massive stacks)

You see the shroud items had great use for TR'ing. you got them at L11/12, and could use them for 8-9 levels. The shroud was the greatest thing in the game. It took them a long time to kill it. For the current end game, you need something similar.. something that has use for 8-9 levels.. not 1 stinking level.

There was actually a different reason why Sentient Weapons flopped in terms of providing long lasting engaging content at cap; it was because the developers didn't do their homework before releasing them.

[Niminae]

The main obstacle, as far as I can tell, is play at cap doesn't generate as much revenue as the reincarnation hamster wheel.

I think you need to back that up with some facts if you intend to be taken seriously.

Fact: Running the "reincarnation hamster wheel" earns player a lot more DDO points from Favor than staying at cap running the same raids does. That's points that can be used instead of buying points, and points that can buy or defray the costs of other things in the store.

Sure, some players may buy XP pots and otto's boxes (which come with XP pots) and maybe even true hearts (I have enough tokens to TR a good number of times, and picking up the amount needed at the end of a heroic life is a pretty trivial thing). But that's all optional. The store point that you earn from favor while leveling 1-20 isn't optional, and can be used to buy or defray the costs of the optional things. And you earn it as a matter of course while running that reincarnation hamster wheel.

[HungarianRhapsody]

This may come as a bit of a surprise but during these 'glory days' of raiding nothing but shroud and maybe ToD on occasion, the game was losing players by the thousands. There's a reason they 'screwed it up' and that's because if they didn't the game would have shut down a few months later.

Source? Because your claim doesn't match the actual numbers from the time.

[blerkington]

I think you need to back that up with some facts if you intend to be taken seriously.

Fact: Running the "reincarnation hamster wheel" earns player a lot more DDO points from Favor than staying at cap running the same raids does. That's points that can be used instead of buying points, and points that can buy or defray the costs of other things in the store.

Sure, some players may buy XP pots and otto's boxes (which come with XP pots) and maybe even true hearts (I have enough tokens to TR a good number of times, and picking up the amount needed at the end of a heroic life is a pretty trivial thing). But that's all optional. The store point that you earn from favor while leveling 1-20 isn't optional, and can be used to buy or defray the costs of the optional things. And you earn it as a matter of course while running that reincarnation hamster wheel.

Asking for facts is reasonable enough, I suppose, but it does invite an examination of the facts you're using and how well they support your position too.

It should be pretty clear from the way that part of my post was worded that this is a guess. No, I can't provide you with customer spending data if that's the standard of proof you want. But I'm not really clear what your difficulty is with the idea that reincarnation is a major source of revenue for them. Do you really think people sitting at cap provide more revenue than those reincarnating? The shape of today's game really suggests otherwise.

The reasons why I think it's a reasonable guess, rather than completely unsupported conjecture, are because of the large number of products in the store associated with reincarnation and because we keep getting more reincarnation activities added to the game. Even with the favour you can earn from these activities (which can be very minimal for some types, such as iconic and epic reincarnation where doing wilderness slayers is a large and efficient source of xp) I would guess on average a reincarnation generates money for SSG.

So the idea that they would be so active in pursuing an activity that isn't more profitable than the alternatives (like better supporting play at cap) seems unlikely to me. Then there's also the question of how you think they make money from players who stay at cap that they don't also make from those reincarnating. My own experience is that I spend hardly any money at all when I sit at cap, because there's almost nothing at all worth spending it on.

For example, I would be very surprised if raid bypass timers made up the difference between sitting at cap and levelling, because we get new raids so infrequently. If raiding at cap was their most lucrative option for making money from us, I think we would see more of it. Just like if cosmetics were a great money maker, significantly better than everything else, I think we would see more of that too.

The premises that they want to make money, that they know where their money is coming from, and that they are directing their efforts towards the more profitable activities are all reasonable. But if you have a different idea about SSG's approach and how it makes its money, I'd be glad to hear it. And if you have some facts to support it, even better.

Your own post is very light on facts, if you hadn't noticed. The core argument apparently being that some unstated proportion of their players may not spend or may even earn DDO points while reincarnating, but with no data about how common an occurrence this is on average. Nor is there any explanation of where the company is actually making its money and why they are devoting so much of their efforts towards supporting reincarnation when it is less profitable than the other as-yet unnamed alternative source of revenue.

In the absence of detailed information about their earnings and costs, we can still use reasonable premises and logical inference to explain the company's behaviour. That's what I've been attempting to do, but if you think I've missed something or made a faulty connection, let's discuss it.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

Dev's view any level 28+ content as end game, even if there is no good reason for anyone at cap to run it.

Why hasn't DDO had an endgame since level 20 cap???

It's a combination of not spending much design effort for anyone at cap, along with not listening to what anyone at cap enjoys - continually designing level 28+ content for those TRing.

Until something is produced for DIFFERENT preferences of those at cap, DDO will not have much of an end game.

We should all know reaper design can't really serve both those at cap and those TRing, and game design is going to make end game progressively worse in order to serve those TRing. Their choices for reaper pretty much sealed this is stone (extra XP, large power creep, reaper rewards). If you feel DDO has an endgame now (since doubling of RXP), enjoy it while it lasts... But please don't blame those wanting things made easier - it's a design error, not a problem with other players.

[Tuxedoman96]

Dev's view any level 28+ content as end game, even if there is no good reason for anyone at cap to run it.

Why hasn't DDO had an endgame since level 20 cap???

It's a combination of not spending much design effort for anyone at cap, along with not listening to what anyone at cap enjoys - continually designing level 28+ content for those TRing.

Until something is produced for DIFFERENT preferences of those at cap, DDO will not have much of an end game.

We should all know reaper design can't really serve both those at cap and those TRing, and game design is going to make end game progressively worse in order to serve those TRing. Their choices for reaper pretty much sealed this is stone (extra XP, large power creep, reaper rewards). If you feel DDO has an endgame now (since doubling of RXP), enjoy it while it lasts... But please don't blame those wanting things made easier - it's a design error, not a problem with other players.

A lot of people at cap requesting for an end game aren't even looking for ease of access so much as a reason to stay at cap. You grind for your gear, you run the quests, you've filled out the egregious past lives (which expedite the rate of decay of enjoyment for quests). Then there's nothing. After everything's said and done, you run higher difficulties for challenge (which those at the top have already fulfilled and then the challenge is gone because you know you can do it), or you're stuck waiting for new content (which SSG is pumping out constantly, sometimes at the expense of quality). There's no real PvP element in the game, something that encourages us to engage in online human interaction aside from trying to tackle monsters we already know how to beat. Nothing really caters to those at the top, and it's fine for the game not to be all about the end game, but it is not fine for the end game to be constantly shifting or so far in the future that by the time you reach it the distance between your current position and the end of the road doubles.

[Sorcerio]

Rambling wall of text incoming:

I think it would be cool if some kind of legendary expansion came out and at level 30 your character could access it. It would continue and build upon the lore in the legendary content of the game already and would take you on adventures in a progressing fashion, you couldn't just skip around. It wouldn't necessarily get harder and harder as you go, but there'd be raids along the way and you could choose the difficulties per quest as we are familiar with today. You could choose to repeat the quests, but only if you hadn't yet progressed beyond them in the story-line. It would be the kind of thing where your character would embark on a journey that took them from point a to points b, c, d, etc over time, visiting villages, ruins, making camp in the wilderness, and finding themselves in other interesting places/scenarios along the way with a bit of randomness peppered throughout. Once you chose to progress you are forced to keep going until the end of the story at which point you could choose to start it all over again to be able to repeat quests to get some gear or ingredients you wanted. But you'd have to commit to the full progression once again. There'd also be side quests, mini chains, etc that opened up to you once you completed as well. Maybe grant an overhead character title after completion or something cool that says "I did it" the way namewings do when you first TR. Then you feel like you're finished with all of it you could simply "go home" back to what we have now (Stormreach/Eveningstar/Barovia/soon to be Sharn) stay at 30 and run all the content you own/have access to as we do now. I'm rambling and not very good at putting my thoughts down cohesively, but something like that is what I envision when I hear the term "End Game" as it would pertain to an online multiplayer Dungeons & Dragons game. A progressing adventure that requires commitment, can be slightly different everytime, and is greatly rewarding.

[nokowi]

A lot of people at cap requesting for an end game aren't even looking for ease of access so much as a reason to stay at cap. You grind for your gear, you run the quests, you've filled out the egregious past lives (which expedite the rate of decay of enjoyment for quests). Then there's nothing. After everything's said and done, you run higher difficulties for challenge (which those at the top have already fulfilled and then the challenge is gone because you know you can do it), or you're stuck waiting for new content (which SSG is pumping out constantly, sometimes at the expense of quality). There's no real PvP element in the game, something that encourages us to engage in online human interaction aside from trying to tackle monsters we already know how to beat. Nothing really caters to those at the top, and it's fine for the game not to be all about the end game, but it is not fine for the end game to be constantly shifting or so far in the future that by the time you reach it the distance between your current position and the end of the road doubles.

I do get it. I'm telling you why it's not likely to happen.

Even PvP games like LOL have implemented PVE settings - settings so challenging you win a cosmetic reward for completing them.

All SSG knows how to do is add power rewards to get people to play content - giving people incentives to go for maximum rewards by avoiding challenge, regardless of reaper setting. This will cause worse and worse problems as two distinct groups argue for the same design. DDO design pits the TR crowd vs the end game crowd, and at the expense of better play experience for everyone.

It's possible to find challenge, but very difficult when the game is entirely rewards per time driven. With their current design philosophy, anything they do to add challenge or variety for end game will slow rewards for the TR crowd - as they are both competing for the same design with largely different preferences.

There is a good reason they have no interest in improving play experience for stealth players --> play experience is simply not a priority. It's all about power rewards and getting them as fast as possible. That's the crowd they serve.

[Tuxedoman96]

I do get it. I'm telling you why it's not likely to happen.

Even PvP games like LOL have implemented PVE settings - settings so challenging you win a cosmetic reward for completing them.

All SSG knows how to do is add power rewards to get people to play content - giving people incentives to go for maximum rewards by avoiding challenge, regardless of reaper setting. This will cause worse and worse problems as two distinct groups argue for the same design. DDO design pits the TR crowd vs the end game crowd, and at the expense of better play experience for everyone.

It's possible to find challenge, but very difficult when the game is entirely rewards per time driven. With their current design philosophy, anything they do to add challenge or variety for end game will slow rewards for the TR crowd - as they are both competing for the same design with largely different preferences.

There is a good reason they have no interest in improving play experience for stealth players --> play experience is simply not a priority. It's all about power rewards and getting them as fast as possible. That's the crowd they serve.

Noted. I was just took exception to the part of the quote where you said players wanted it easier. Most everything you have said in the last two quotes I agree with. I thought you meant the end game crowd for some reason, but alternate interpretation would imply you were talking about the TR group. My apologies.

[Rogann]

Where are those folks who continually claim 2010-2011 was dead?

Its ironic that its the complete opposite lol 2010-2011 is when the game was the most popular.

Source? Because your claim doesn't match the actual numbers from the time.

Actually the numbers work against his statement. There was a mass exodus shortly after MotU which led to an even lower population than there was before MotU. Most likely the endgame population leaving in droves. Splitting up the player base wasn't good either.

Why hasn't DDO had an endgame since level 20 cap???

It's a combination of not spending much design effort for anyone at cap, along with not listening to what anyone at cap enjoys - continually designing level 28+ content for those TRing.

The biggest issue was the destruction of the level 20 cap. They had plans to eventually make the cap level 30. You cant design an endgame around level 25 when they're raising the cap to 28. Thats exactly why they havent bothered with any endgame. Instead they focused their attention on farming endless amounts of xp. Why create new content when you can just recycle old content?

A lot of people at cap requesting for an end game aren't even looking for ease of access so much as a reason to stay at cap. You grind for your gear, you run the quests, you've filled out the egregious past lives (which expedite the rate of decay of enjoyment for quests). Then there's nothing. After everything's said and done, you run higher difficulties for challenge (which those at the top have already fulfilled and then the challenge is gone because you know you can do it), or you're stuck waiting for new content (which SSG is pumping out constantly, sometimes at the expense of quality). There's no real PvP element in the game, something that encourages us to engage in online human interaction aside from trying to tackle monsters we already know how to beat. Nothing really caters to those at the top, and it's fine for the game not to be all about the end game, but it is not fine for the end game to be constantly shifting or so far in the future that by the time you reach it the distance between your current position and the end of the road doubles.

The sad truth of any mmo. The grind and grind to eventually be left with nothing to do.

Part of the reason why the level 20 cap was so good is the item lifespan was long. The majority of the items lasted literal years and for some items it took years to obtain.

[Revolted]

Actually I don't get the doom threads about no one staying at endgame. There are 2 kind of people (veterans in this game), the ones that are still on the tr train, and play from 1-20 or eventually 1-30 if they got some EPL's to get still, and the ones that stay at cap to farm for equipment and rxp. Many actually are on both, having 1 toon on the tr train and keeping well built/equipped alts at cap, or even doing the train with all the toons they play, which means 1 tr'ing at each time, while the others stay at cap. Then there are the really fast levelers that make 1 life in less than 1 week, staying at cap for long enough to do every lvl 30+ quest at r8+ for max rxp. Now, the worse lvls to find a party are usually around 20-24, as not many people are at range for long. I can find easily people to play with at any other level, being it for low or mid reaper on heroics or for low-high reaper at cap.

I got 2 alts at cap, constantly, and they're reaper-able, and whenever I want to do stuff at endgame I can easily find a big amount of players to play with, so I can't fathom where did you conclude that there's nothing to do at cap and hence no one is staying at cap.

[nokowi]

Noted. I was just took exception to the part of the quote where you said players wanted it easier. Most everything you have said in the last two quotes I agree with. I thought you meant the end game crowd for some reason, but alternate interpretation would imply you were talking about the TR group. My apologies.

I guess my personal opinion is more nuanced than "all TR players want things easy, and all end game players want challenge."

Quite a few people stay at end game and TR, or play multiple toons, or have some toons in each location.

Some TR players enjoy challenge, they just will largely only find groups for the rewards/time crowd.

Some end game players enjoy challenge, and they have a better chance of finding a group for this purpose.


Whether TRing or at cap, the reward structure benefits you for not taking on enough challenge to fail. The routine (easiest) R10 runs are always going to be run, and group composition and quest choice is going to prefer less engaging play with higher chance of success over more engaging play but less chance of success.

I am saying the entire design of the game does not encourage or reward taking on challenge, and focuses on rewards/time. End game would need a different model, with the removal of grind per time and limiting things like bypass timers. This would be better replaced by steady participation, and variety of quests. (Think of dalies that change everyday of the year and pool people into actual challenges, and require largely different group compositions from challenge to challenge). End game needs a different reward structure than TR.

[Cantor]

I guess my personal opinion is more nuanced than "all TR players want things easy, and all end game players want challenge."

Quite a few people stay at end game and TR, or play multiple toons, or have some toons in each location.

Some TR players enjoy challenge, they just will largely only find groups for the rewards/time crowd.

Some end game players enjoy challenge, and they have a better chance of finding a group for this purpose.


Whether TRing or at cap, the reward structure benefits you for not taking on enough challenge to fail. The routine (easiest) R10 runs are always going to be run, and group composition and quest choice is going to prefer less engaging play with higher chance of success over more engaging play but less chance of success.

I am saying the entire design of the game does not encourage or reward taking on challenge, and focuses on rewards/time. End game would need a different model, with the removal of grind per time and limiting things like bypass timers. This would be better replaced by steady participation, and variety of quests. (Think of dalies that change ever day of the year and pool people into actual challenges, and require largely different group compositions form challenge to challenge).

When reaper was about to arrive I was really excited to do a life leveling only when we wanted to, doing each quest on increasing skulls until we couldn't go on. But it came with trees and xp, and then racial past lives... The design does not encourage enjoying the challenge.

[nokowi]

so I can't fathom where did you conclude that there's nothing to do at cap and hence no one is staying at cap.

Someone in this thread may have said this, but this is not the only opinion by those that think end game is much less than it could be.

You can certainly try and find max RXP/min at cap without too much difficulty --> the same thing you can find while TRing. The rewards crowd is well served.