Update 40 Monk Die Scaling discussion

[DrawingGuy]

First I'll preface that I know that there is already a thread regarding this subject, however I consider the title polarizing to actual real discussion, so starting a new thread.

While I find the lack of posting the nerf in the Lam update as well as the complete lack of Official discussion thread in Lam frustrating... all on top of the fact that the one in the Official Discussion thread has been ignored, it shows that the Monk nerf is inevitable. So while the debate of whether the nerf is needed or not is out the window, I truly hope we can change how it is implemented.

Scaling unarmed damage is a core concept of Dungeons and Dragons. They did have to change it from scaling base die to adding die to a 1d6 so they could more effectively control the scaling, but a .5[W] scaling every 4 levels still held to the core concept. I consider completely destroying the concept and mechanic as bad for flavor and a completely unnecessary way to do the nerf. Not only are there other sources of +W, but I also don't think the nerf bat should hit solely in heroic levels. I am fully willing to break down numbers and options of heroic leveling if a Dev finds it necessary to show that shifting the nerf into epics a bit is better all around, but ultimately there are still options outside of core Monk concepts to pull dices from even in Heroics. My proposed source of 2.5[W] is as follows:

- Remove Reinforce Fists items. This will remove 1.5[W] from end-game Monks, as well as hit into Heroics. Simply convert existing Reinforced Fist items to equivalent Enhanced Ki (+1 for Reinforced, +2 for Greater, +3 for Sovereign). Sunsoul outfits are the only items that contain both Reinforced Fists and Enhanced Ki, so can either get +2 Enhanced Ki or something else as they're just 4 items (outfit and docent + higher level versions)
- Remove Improved Martial Arts feat. This feat is a flat +1[W] for unarmed, and while is a canon feat, was one meant to let other classes fight like a Monk rather than boost a Monk itself. Alternatively this could be nerfed to .5[W] for Handwraps/Unarmed.

Those two changes together add up to 2.5[W], and I consider the best sources as they are flat additions made to boost Handwrap die that can be removed without changing core D&D concepts.

There are also +3[W] in 18/20 Shintao cores. While I consider those important to putting some back-load to Monks and make pure classing worth it over xclass cherry picking, still a better source of die removal than core concepts imo as well.

I really hope we can divert from the change as was directed in the Official Discussion thread and what was pushed to Lam.

[voxson5]

Good luck.

Fighting this vexatious change, even with logic and reason, might be a fools errand.

[Iriale]

I agree with you, OP, and many people have said the same on the official thread. But these devs never hear arguments, so I doubt we'll see changes.

Although actually I think that the monk's dps is ok. I think the designers are clueless about how much damage other melee classes do today ...

[Vish]

Good luck,
Monks getting nerfed into oblivion
Henshins are dead, ninjas are dead,
And now they're killing Shintao
They have their own agenda
Play or not, feedback isn't considered

[Synthetic]

Removing the extra dice from the cores would seem.to make the most sense. I think they are good even with the removal considering MP is huge and both touch the void dragon and remove of penalties are very useful. Gearing a character is always a trade off so I doubt changing gear is acceptable.as it wouldn't lower damage just change the gear Tetris game.

Do handwraps still have increased attacks per minute compared to other TWF weapons or was that changed?

[Nickodeamous]

First and foremost, the Devs need to show us who does 20k DPS. I have tested my pure monk and I only get to like 5-6k (red name). I have 20 epic past lives and all of the best gear as well. If I stun anything, I'd say my DPS is more like 10k. I don;t think lowering us by 2.5W is going to kill our DPS. If we are concerned with kill counts, just run in GMOF and use EIN twice in a quest and you will be the leader for sure.

What really kinda bugs me is they don't seem to get what's really going on in epics. Monks are fine and actually help the party. By further nerfing them, it hurts everybody. I honestly don't care about survivability any longer. I have 1100 HPs at level 30 and I am hard to kill thanks to my insane reflex. So, giving us more HPs via the last patch does nothing for me and I'm sure most monks feel the same way. So, they wanna give us +3 to attack? That's a bogus fru fru useless skill in epics. Honestly, how many monks actually miss their target? This is a useless trade for DPS.

Can somebody tell me what 2.5W would do for folks that have the (already nerfed) Duality wraps? are we losing 30-40DPS per hit?

This game is frustrating at times. Its getting harder and harder to see my time investment still paying off...

[Renvar]

I would agree that looking at taking the +2.5[W] out of Core 18 and 20 of Shintao (and putting the Attack Modifier Bonuses there as a replacement) compared to dropping the the 5 Level up +.5[W] in the class features would be a worthwhile thing to do.

Same net result at 20, but the change in implementation does less to damage heroic leveling monks. The handwraps builds that are OP are the ones that are pure 20 monk with Core 6 in Shintao.

What would be the cons to this implementation?

[DrawingGuy]

Removing the extra dice from the cores would seem.to make the most sense. I think they are good even with the removal considering MP is huge and both touch the void dragon and remove of penalties are very useful. Gearing a character is always a trade off so I doubt changing gear is acceptable.as it wouldn't lower damage just change the gear Tetris game.

Do handwraps still have increased attacks per minute compared to other TWF weapons or was that changed?

How would removing damage die not lower damage? Reinforce Fist items are a unique source of damage for unarmed/handwraps, so while people would indeed shift gear around if it was no longer an option, removing the option would go towards part of the nerf goal the devs are attempting to achieve.

As for handwrap vs TWF attack rates, the gap was lessened by changes to the TWF attack cycle, though handwrap is still slightly faster... but we're talking ~3 swings per minute range. A TWF rolling 100% offhand chance vs a Monk with 90% makes a bigger difference. While the gap increases slightly once you throw in Haste boost, it is still a negligible factor... especially when 90% of the game is trash mobs where you are not hitting targets long enough for small attack rate differences to factor.

As for removing the die from Shintao core vs Items, I personally favor the item route as it really becomes the difference of whether Handwrap DPS is defined by being a Monk or just having handwraps with a Monk splash (or GMoF). However as stated, I consider any source as better than the currently implemented one. The nerf hits too hard in Heroics, and punches yet another D&D concept in the gut.

[NXPlasmid]

I would agree that looking at taking the +2.5[W] out of Core 18 and 20 of Shintao (and putting the Attack Modifier Bonuses there as a replacement) compared to dropping the the 5 Level up +.5[W] in the class features would be a worthwhile thing to do.

Same net result at 20, but the change in implementation does less to damage heroic leveling monks. The handwraps builds that are OP are the ones that are pure 20 monk with Core 6 in Shintao.

What would be the cons to this implementation?

It's not Steel's idea. He even had the nerve to justify this change by stating his "main" is a monk. I honestly wonder how many hours a week he actually plays DDO, I am guessing there are a lot of weeks that are 0 hours. This change has a logic to it based on the change to handwraps, but to me it seems that pretty much where the rational ends. It's definitely not based on real in game damage and if he seriously played monk he would know that. It's based on their "internal testing" what ever that is. I guarantee he will not comment on this change further and it will be in U40 exactly as it is in the preview. DDO is directionless. Reaper has permanently changed the game and the way it was implemented was, in my opinion, a big mistake. The abyss between experienced players and nonexperienced and new players was made much greater with Reaper. New content is likewise all over the map, everyone runs Ravenloft, yet Rage and White Plume are barely run. In my opinion, SSG is trashing the massive optimism that came with RL as fast as they can...

[DrawingGuy]

They now list the Monk nerf in the release notes, so it is at least less under the radar. And since my thread, Cordo has posted in another thread a completely mistaken source of the Unarmed Strike feat. It has existed since the creation of Monk and at the time was a carbon copy of the 3.5 die step system that is the concept of Monk and their unarmed attacks. Unarmed Strike was changed to the die multiplier system in U14 to put a consistent die scaling system in place. It was never an arbitrary addition made to make up for non-scaling weapons. It is a CORE Monk concept that has existed for decades, and while I fully realize this is DDO and not really the PnP D&D 3.5 system this is based on, there does exist items and feats that are arbitrary additions that boost Monk Unarmed die. There is no Lam discussion for this, the Official thread is ignored... seriously, why do we have to destroy a core D&D concept for this nerf?! While I do think a nerf in general is misguided -- there are videos showing better and easier DPS potential of other classes, and what is happening to Monk is causing people to not post top-tier builds on these forums anymore for fear of nerfs (I do think power creep has caused Scion of Ethereal to overperform and is the root DPS concern, not Monk) -- I can live with the nerf... just not as it is proposed. There are other and better sources to accomplish the same result! Please can you pursue these other routes like I mentioned in multiple threads, or at least acknowledge why the destruction a core game concept is the only option?

[Doomflayer]

Monk's don't head the kill lists in the hundreds of raids I have been on, it is ALWAYS FVS, Cleric, Warlock, or Sorc. Monk don't need a Nerf as they do NOTHING except DPS, they can't heal others, AE blast, or rez (unless with scrolls), tank, or do anything except DPS.

[Vish]

Lost 3w
From 17 to 14

[Nubom70]

Monks damage was already below ALL other DPS melee/crit builds. This "update" destroyed that even more. Our 20 barbarian has higher DPS than our capped monk now.

Our monks crits, 2-4k. Our RANGERS crits, 142k (yeah.... 142), the barbarian usually 30-32k, our rogue's north of 50k.

Thanks SSG, for taking away the monks DnD class skill, and stabbing it in the head, instead of fixing the one wrap you coded this change on. (which you still screwed up after 12 years).
Next up... Paladins Lay on Hands! Because, you know, having a guy who can melee and cast a heal has got to be wrong too. Oh, and clerics need more groups, so yeah, that'll justify it.

[Nubom70]

This game is frustrating at times. Its getting harder and harder to see my time investment still paying off...

The server population keeps dropping. DDO had a good run, but lately they're making too many mistakes to support the game anymore.